OT: 16-Year-Old Kareem Photos by Richard Avedon

[Smashcat]

AFRICA IS A COUNTRY ‏@AfricasaCountry 12h12 hours ago

16 year old Kareem Abdul Jabaar photographed by Richard Avedon pic.twitter.com/HX9KR7JLcN

 

[c1doc]

IMO he is the GOAT... Not MJ

 

[CatEye2010]

For you younger guys, he was sort of the Anthony Davis of his day. But under the rules, he had to stay in college all four years. His senior year he was sort of how AD would have been had he played in college LAST YEAR instead of being in the top five for NBA MVP.

And for you really younger guys, in these pix his name was Lew Alcindor.

 

[mj2k10]

IMO he is the GOAT... Not MJ

I think he was headed towards that when he was 25, but I honestly think he got bored with basketball after a while, and spent long periods of time coasting for the rest of his career.

Think about how his career went. He was almost certainly one of the 5 best players on the planet by the time he was 20. He had the most dominant college career of any player who's ever played. He got to the pros, took a 27 win team up to 56 wins his first year, then won a title his second. He won the MVP award in his 2nd and 3rd seasons, and easily could have won it as a rookie.

There really weren't any more mountains for him to climb by the time he was 25, and I think he chose to distance himself emotionally, and settled into a steady pattern of excellence that fell short of dominant. He went 5 straight years, from the time he was 28 until he was 32, without his team even making the finals. And no, those weren't great teams he was playing on, but that was a watered down era of the NBA, ripe for the taking. His legacy looks better in the long run because he ended up with 6 rings, but the reality is that the last 3 of those had way, way more to do with Magic Johnson than himself.

 

[ekywildcat]

Hate to show my age, but I remember reading an article in Street & Smith or some magazine back in that era about him. Went to Power Memorial High School. From what I remember I believe Holy Cross was where he was expected to go. I guess Wooden and Sam Gilbert changed his mind.

Wasn't Alcindor the reason they banned dunking for a few years in college basketball? I know...but I don't feel like googling.

 

[KMKAT]

Its amazing that talent like this can get traded. I know he didn't like Milwaukee, but it would be very hard to move a player who has brought you a championship and is someone you're not replacing.

If I'm New Orleans or Sacramento, I'm never trading AD or Cuz unless you ruin the fortunes of the team you are trading with.

You simply cannot replace them.

 

[Alumni Gym]

I think he was headed towards that when he was 25, but I honestly think he got bored with basketball after a while, and spent long periods of time coasting for the rest of his career.

Think about how his career went. He was almost certainly one of the 5 best players on the planet by the time he was 20. He had the most dominant college career of any player who's ever played. He got to the pros, took a 27 win team up to 56 wins his first year, then won a title his second. He won the MVP award in his 2nd and 3rd seasons, and easily could have won it as a rookie.

There really weren't any more mountains for him to climb by the time he was 25, and I think he chose to distance himself emotionally, and settled into a steady pattern of excellence that fell short of dominant. He went 5 straight years, from the time he was 28 until he was 32, without his team even making the finals. And no, those weren't great teams he was playing on, but that was a watered down era of the NBA, ripe for the taking. His legacy looks better in the long run because he ended up with 6 rings, but the reality is that the last 3 of those had way, way more to do with Magic Johnson than himself.

I always thought he was the greatest, but my Dad said he didn't work hard enough on defense, and he didn't really try until the playoffs.

 

[mj2k10]

Hate to show my age, but I remember reading an article in Street & Smith or some magazine back in that era about him. Went to Power Memorial High School. From what I remember I believe Holy Cross was where he was expected to go. I guess Wooden and Sam Gilbert changed his mind.

Wasn't Alcindor the reason they banned dunking for a few years in college basketball? I know...but I don't feel like googling.

Sam Gilbert had 0 to do with Kareem's recruitment. It's such an incredibly lazy cop-out to act like UCLA's dynasty was built entirely around Sam Gilbert, but some people find BS like that comforting. As opposed to facing facts, like that UK was pretty much screwed from the late 50's until it integrated, because it was playing a segregationist version of a sport that was becoming dominated by great black athletes (and yes, I know that wasn't entirely by choice, but the reality on the court was the same regardless).

But hey, if it makes you feel better...

As for the real facts of Kareem's recruitment, Holy Cross was a minor player, mentioned only because Kareem's HS coach took the head coaching job there. The real players were St John's as the hometown school, Boston College as the "still be close to home, but not entirely" option, and the 2 biggest national powers at the time, Michigan and UCLA. Michigan having appeared in consecutive Final Fours, and UCLA having won consecutive national titles- with both programs being thoroughly integrated, and both campuses having a reputation for tolerance.

 

[UKSlim]

The Greatest of all time,imo.

 

[mj2k10]

The hell he didn't. They've been saying that crap ever since he was at UCLA. Kareem was out there busting his buns every night -- tell your old man to drag Walton and Lanier up and down the court for 48 minutes.

 

[Alumni Gym]

Sam Gilbert had 0 to do with Kareem's recruitment. It's such an incredibly lazy cop-out to act like UCLA's dynasty was built entirely around Sam Gilbert, but some people find BS like that comforting. As opposed to facing facts, like that UK was pretty much screwed from the late 50's until it integrated, because it was playing a segregationist version of a sport that was becoming dominated by great black athletes (and yes, I know that wasn't entirely by choice, but the reality on the court was the same regardless).

But hey, if it makes you feel better...

As for the real facts of Kareem's recruitment, Holy Cross was a minor player, mentioned only because Kareem's HS coach took the head coaching job there. The real players were St John's as the hometown school, Boston College as the "still be close to home, but not entirely" option, and the 2 biggest national powers at the time, Michigan and UCLA. Michigan having appeared in consecutive Final Fours, and UCLA having won consecutive national titles- with both programs being thoroughly integrated, and both campuses having a reputation for tolerance.

Fact is, Gilbert was paying players and inducing recruits from 1966 on. These weren't $100 handshakes. He gave them cars, thousands of dollars, and dates with movie stars and hookers. Hell, Bill Walton even admitted this, and he's the biggest UCLA homer there is on the planet.

As far as integration goes, UK was actually a progressive school, especially for a school in the South. UCLA and Southern Cal are a totally different type of environment from the deep South. You seem to be making a hint that Rupp was racist (at least somewhat). He was not. And by the way, Kentucky constantly played against integrated teams, and did quite well. What hurt UK in the 1960's was not getting Unseld or Beard, even though both were recruited very hard. That, and Mike Casey getting hurt. Rupp's latter teams, while not winning NCAA Championships, sure competed for them, and were still a damn tough opponent to play.

 

[mj2k10]

Fact is, Gilbert was paying players and inducing recruits from 1966 on. These weren't $100 handshakes. He gave them cars, thousands of dollars, and dates with movie stars and hookers. Hell, Bill Walton even admitted this, and he's the biggest UCLA homer there is on the planet.

Wrong. Kareem never even met Gilbert until 1967, when he (and Lucius Allen) was introduced by Willie Naulls, a former UCLA and NY Knick player who had been instrumental in Kareem's recruitment. And there is 0 evidence that Gilbert was involved in recruiting at all until after Wooden retired, when he (Gilbert) became much more brazen. I can give you a link to a 73 or 74 Time frickin' magazine article about Gilbert and UCLA. It seems kind of weird that if Gilbert was bankrolling the most corrupt program ever (as you and so many others love to state) that a national news magazine would just casually run that type of thing, complete with quotes from players and from Gilbert.

But arguing with you and some others about this is akin to arguing with the Taliban about religion. There's no question that Gilbert was playing fast and loose with NCAA rules, but the idea that he was the cornerstone of some incredibly corrupt machine is a modern development, convenient to anyone who wants to undercut the UCLA dynasty as much as possible. And hey, Wooden brought a lot of it upon himself, because he was never shy about moralizing, and he certainly turned a blind eye to less-than-ethical behavior that was going on right in front of him.

The best, most well-researched article I've ever seen on the subject is right here. Definitely worth reading for anyone who truly wants a broader perspective on the topic, beyond the "cheatingest cheaters ever" mantra, although, unfortunately, it includes a cheap shot at Cal.

 

[Alumni Gym]

Wrong. Kareem never even met Gilbert until 1967, when he (and Lucius Allen) was introduced by Willie Naulls, a former UCLA and NY Knick player who had been instrumental in Kareem's recruitment. And there is 0 evidence that Gilbert was involved in recruiting at all until after Wooden retired, when he (Gilbert) became much more brazen. I can give you a link to a 73 or 74 Time frickin' magazine article about Gilbert and UCLA. It seems kind of weird that if Gilbert was bankrolling to most corrupt program ever (as you and so many others love to state) that a national news magazine would just casually run that type of thing, complete with quotes from players and from Gilbert.

But arguing with you and some others about this is akin to arguing with the Taliban about religion. There's no question that Gilbert was playing fast and loose with NCAA rules, but the idea that he was the cornerstone of some incredibly corrupt machine is a modern development, convenient to anyone who wants to undercut the UCLA dynasty as much as possible. And hey, Wooden brought a lot of it upon himself, because he was never shy about moralizing, and he certainly turned a blind eye to less-than-ethical behavior that was going on right in front of him.

The best, most well-researched article I've ever seen on the subject is right here. Definitely worth reading for anyone who truly wants a broader perspective on the topic, beyond the "cheatingest cheaters ever" mantra, although, unfortunately, it includes a cheap shot at Cal.

Why is it that you always interject in threads that are UCLA related? Why do you constantly passive/aggressive defend them? I'm curious. And by the way, how does not giving players extreme monetary and sexual benefits once they get to campus not affect recruiting?

Fact is, Gilbert was a sugar daddy for UCLA players for years, starting in 1966. Whether or not he helped recruit Alcindor is something I never claimed, nor neither you or I know for sure. However, I do know that UCLA was cheating at an extreme level for a solid decade under Wooden. If you deny this, then well, you sound just like UNC fans. Think about that.

 

[Ron Mehico]

Those shorts!

 

[mj2k10]

Why is it that you always interject in threads that are UCLA related? Why do you constantly passive/aggressive defend them? I'm curious.

Maybe because I respect the truth, as far as it's available to me, as opposed to some obviously self-serving, half-assed BS rationale that carefully chooses the realities it chooses to acknowledge?

I also find it incredibly hypocritical that so many UK fans who scream "FOUL!!" at the top of their lungs about anyone bringing up UK's past indiscretions are more than willing to grab onto any last nugget of rumor, innuendo, and exaggeration like it's gold when it comes to someone else.

 

[Alumni Gym]

Maybe because I respect the truth, as far as it's available to me, as opposed to some obviously self-serving, half-assed BS rationale that carefully chooses the realities it chooses to acknowledge?

I also find it incredibly hypocritical that so many UK fans who scream "FOUL!!" at the top of their lungs about anyone bringing up UK's past indiscretions are more than willing to grab onto any last nugget of rumor, innuendo, and exaggeration like it's gold when it comes to someone else.

Hah! Hah! Good laugh! Keep up with the comedy.

You sound just like a typical UNC coach, administrator, or fan. The irony.

"Oh, all of these things are overblown. And besides, it was really only one guy. Nobody else knew about it (including the coaches). It's just all a fabrication from people out to get us. They are all liars. Nothing to see here. We are white as the driven snow. Our old head coaches were saints. We never cheated. It's was just a couple of mistakes."

 

[Aike]

I think he was headed towards that when he was 25, but I honestly think he got bored with basketball after a while, and spent long periods of time coasting for the rest of his career.

Think about how his career went. He was almost certainly one of the 5 best players on the planet by the time he was 20. He had the most dominant college career of any player who's ever played. He got to the pros, took a 27 win team up to 56 wins his first year, then won a title his second. He won the MVP award in his 2nd and 3rd seasons, and easily could have won it as a rookie.

There really weren't any more mountains for him to climb by the time he was 25, and I think he chose to distance himself emotionally, and settled into a steady pattern of excellence that fell short of dominant. He went 5 straight years, from the time he was 28 until he was 32, without his team even making the finals. And no, those weren't great teams he was playing on, but that was a watered down era of the NBA, ripe for the taking. His legacy looks better in the long run because he ended up with 6 rings, but the reality is that the last 3 of those had way, way more to do with Magic Johnson than himself.

You are absolutely selling Kareem short. I realize that you are only providing a snapshot, but that snapshot should include the phrase: 6 time MVP.

You kind of make it sound like Kareem played hard for a few years then waited around to ride Magic's coat tails.

Several of those years that you say he was coasting, he was league MVP. One of those seasons, he was MVP for a team that missed the playoffs.

Your implication that he wasn't doing enough because his team wasn't making the finals is faulty, in my opinion. It would be akin to criticizing AD for being an 8th seed last year and getting swept by GS. Only so much one guy can do.

 

[mj2k10]

You are absolutely selling Kareem short. I realize that you are only providing a snapshot, but that snapshot should include the phrase: 6 time MVP.

You kind of make it sound like Kareem played hard for a few years then waited around to ride Magic's coat tails.

Several of those years that you say he was coasting, he was league MVP. One of those seasons, he was MVP for a team that missed the playoffs.

Your implication that he wasn't doing enough because his team wasn't making the finals is faulty, in my opinion. It would be akin to criticizing AD for being an 8th seed last year and getting swept by GS. Only so much one guy can do.

Maybe. But we're talking a very, very high standard here. Not just great, but greatest. I think, under those qualifications, nit-picking is not only allowed, but necessary.

 

[yoshukai]

IMO he is the GOAT... Not MJ

He was better than Jordan

 

[Aike]

Maybe. But we're talking a very, very high standard here. Not just great, but greatest. I think, under those qualifications, nit-picking is not only allowed, but necessary.

Sure. And I have no problem with someone arguing that he wasn't the greatest. But 6 MVPs is a piece that can never be left out of the discussion.

 

[kentucky_wildcat_#1]

Magic might have been the reason the Lakers won a title or two Towards the end of Kareem's career, but carried Kareem? Nah. When you're good enough to win 6 MVP awards, that says all that needs to be said about that. As great as Magic was, Kareem was better and has 6 championships under his resume. Most want to think Jordan is the best ever and Its probably to do with most fans watching Jordan and not following some of the greats before him. A guy like Kareem has a say in best ever and a strong case to back it up with.

 

[Stonewall12]

IMO he is the GOAT... Not MJ

Ha nope.

 

[bradscats]

Early Career Big O is the best IMO.

 

[At least 23 Ws in 22 of past 35 seasons_UK 1980-81]

The Greatest of all time,imo.

endless, long-distance, fade-away banks:


behind-the-backboard dunks (possibly the longest 'reach' in bball history)


four, 3-pt hook-shots, in-a-row:


Looking down on/standing next2 Shaq & Ewing:


one-step vertical jump (0:45 mark):


List of his 72 NBA records (68 of which he holds by himself -- and many of them he is not only 1st, but 2nd and 3rd-place, too):
http://www.nba.com/encyclopedia/wilts_records.html

'Bleacher-Report' article favoring Wilt to Kareem:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...hamberlain-is-better-than-kareem-abdul-jabbar

Wilt, Andre the Giant, and Arnold Schwarzenegger photo:

http://www.imgur.com/m8upoql

 

[At least 23 Ws in 22 of past 35 seasons_UK 1980-81]

Early Career Big O is the best IMO.

You might be right; that's very, very difficult to argue against.

 

[kybassfan]

The Greatest of all time,imo.

Ding! Nobody tops that guy. What a behemoth.

 

[musrat59]

I have always thought that Wilt was the best big man of all time.

 

[Ben101er]

Wrong. Kareem never even met Gilbert until 1967, when he (and Lucius Allen) was introduced by Willie Naulls, a former UCLA and NY Knick player who had been instrumental in Kareem's recruitment. And there is 0 evidence that Gilbert was involved in recruiting at all until after Wooden retired, when he (Gilbert) became much more brazen. I can give you a link to a 73 or 74 Time frickin' magazine article about Gilbert and UCLA. It seems kind of weird that if Gilbert was bankrolling the most corrupt program ever (as you and so many others love to state) that a national news magazine would just casually run that type of thing, complete with quotes from players and from Gilbert.

But arguing with you and some others about this is akin to arguing with the Taliban about religion. There's no question that Gilbert was playing fast and loose with NCAA rules, but the idea that he was the cornerstone of some incredibly corrupt machine is a modern development, convenient to anyone who wants to undercut the UCLA dynasty as much as possible. And hey, Wooden brought a lot of it upon himself, because he was never shy about moralizing, and he certainly turned a blind eye to less-than-ethical behavior that was going on right in front of him.

The best, most well-researched article I've ever seen on the subject is right here. Definitely worth reading for anyone who truly wants a broader perspective on the topic, beyond the "cheatingest cheaters ever" mantra, although, unfortunately, it includes a cheap shot at Cal.

Wasn't sure whether to post or