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NCAA Championships or one and done players?

I think the OP is struggling to make his point correctly.
I think he does have a slight point… slight. I think Cal's focus is mainly on getting players to the pros, which he is very successful at. But it sets the next season's team back and we end up with another young team.
The 2012 title team was what the OP wants to see more of if I understand him correctly. That team had really good veterans (with the talent Cal gets, a sophomore is as good as most top senior vets on anyone elses squad), to go with a great group of freshmen. One of the vets was a great shooter. If we could do that we would put a lot of banners in the rafters. 2015 was another team with a perfect mix of talent and veterans.
Instead though, we usually end up with a clean sheet of players almost every year. I love having these players, I just wish there was a 2 year rule so we could keep them around longer. Even if it means we miss out on a few players. I think experienced talent is far better than freshmen talent (duh).
All those fans from rival schools, like UL that keep their players for 4 years, have plenty to say about Cal only winning one title with "all that NBA talent" don't understand that their coaches are the ones underachieving. They keep their players for 4 years, how many titles do they have? Let Cal keep his players for 4 years and see what happens.
Again, I love having all these great players but I could care less about the NBA, I care about UK and it's successes.

Cal is talking the players talk, and if they are talented enough it is his job to put them in a position to reach the next level. For one, if he gets all of these guys to play at that level, you have another 2012 year and a championship, but nobody knows how these kids will respond with the biggest game of their lives is on the line. Cal doesn't make the rules, and he ain't the only one who figured out that its the best and fastest way to get to the last game of the tournament, ask Coach K? How do you get someone to stay and want a NC, if they want to leave? 2012 and 2015, shows us that it indeed can happen but we have seen a lot of years where potential carried UK players as high as a lottery pick so they leave. Do you really hold a lottery pick back for another year if he hears that he should go? Honestly we are a little selfish is the real problem, in some of our minds we get that mindset that the player that stays 3 or 4 years will become our personal friend and that only happens in our minds. Cal wants to win NCs as bad as anyone but saying that only allows the media to feast on his ego, say the players are first, and the media has a problem because it sounds like Cal cares about his kids so the media goes the other direction and makes it sound like he is hurting the fans. He knows he can't win with them but he doesn't let them upset him, his staff, or his team.
 
My opinion is we cannot have both. Quality experienced depth wins championships.

If your happy with Final Fours and elite eights, one and done players will get it done.

It appears the "player first" philosophy dictates a program goal of getting players to the NBA over any other goal.

I love one and done players as much as anyone, but with moderation. The UK Program continues to recruit over players instead of developing the skills of those already apart of the team.

My favorite team, the Unforgettables, reveals what good coaching can produce. Without the miracle shot, that team would have probably won an NCAA Championship.
WTF do you mean we can't have both? Been living under a cave during the Cal era? We have one and dones and a championship.
 
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Cal is talking the players talk, and if they are talented enough it is his job to put them in a position to reach the next level. For one, if he gets all of these guys to play at that level, you have another 2012 year and a championship, but nobody knows how these kids will respond with the biggest game of their lives is on the line. Cal doesn't make the rules, and he ain't the only one who figured out that its the best and fastest way to get to the last game of the tournament, ask Coach K? How do you get someone to stay and want a NC, if they want to leave? 2012 and 2015, shows us that it indeed can happen but we have seen a lot of years where potential carried UK players as high as a lottery pick so they leave. Do you really hold a lottery pick back for another year if he hears that he should go? Honestly we are a little selfish is the real problem, in some of our minds we get that mindset that the player that stays 3 or 4 years will become our personal friend and that only happens in our minds. Cal wants to win NCs as bad as anyone but saying that only allows the media to feast on his ego, say the players are first, and the media has a problem because it sounds like Cal cares about his kids so the media goes the other direction and makes it sound like he is hurting the fans. He knows he can't win with them but he doesn't let them upset him, his staff, or his team.
I agree with everything you said except the part about us being selfish. We are UK basketball fans, I don't think we are being selfish because we want to see these great players wear UK blue for more than one year. We are all very happy that these players are high picks in the NBA draft but we are UK basketball fans first, we want our program to thrive. That's not being selfish, that's showing support for the program. I just wish we could keep these players for 2 or three years but that doesn't mean we are complaining that they're gone.
I'm probably butchering this explanation but I'm pretty sure you get my point.
 
.............All those fans from rival schools, like UL that keep their players for 4 years, have plenty to say about Cal only winning one title with "all that NBA talent" don't understand that their coaches are the ones underachieving. They keep their players for 4 years, how many titles do they have? Let Cal keep his players for 4 years and see what happens.
You know, that's an excellent point.

Cal's critics insist that getting good players that stay four years is by far the most likely path to win championships. Yet how many of them that recruit that way have recent multiple championships to back it up? So who then truly underachieves?

They can't argue it both ways.
 
My opinion is we cannot have both. Quality experienced depth wins championships.

If your happy with Final Fours and elite eights, one and done players will get it done.

It appears the "player first" philosophy dictates a program goal of getting players to the NBA over any other goal.

I love one and done players as much as anyone, but with moderation. The UK Program continues to recruit over players instead of developing the skills of those already apart of the team.

My favorite team, the Unforgettables, reveals what good coaching can produce. Without the miracle shot, that team would have probably won an NCAA Championship.
Both
 
I've always loved the logic that you can only get to elite eights and final fours with OADs, but not win championships.

We forget that a magical, mystical spell is placed on that one game.

How silly of us.
exactly. You have to have a certain number of upperclassmen to break the curse. Whether they contribute a ton isn't important, it's their mystical upperclassmen super powers that does it.
 
I have to laugh when I read about something that can't be done when it has already happened and nearly happened 2 - 3 other times. My recommendation to the OP would be that he give at least 30 seconds thought to topics before posting. This topic and thread are well below even UMM standards.
 
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My opinion is we cannot have both. Quality experienced depth wins championships.

If your happy with Final Fours and elite eights, one and done players will get it done.

It appears the "player first" philosophy dictates a program goal of getting players to the NBA over any other goal.

I love one and done players as much as anyone, but with moderation. The UK Program continues to recruit over players instead of developing the skills of those already apart of the team.

My favorite team, the Unforgettables, reveals what good coaching can produce. Without the miracle shot, that team would have probably won an NCAA Championship.

I respectfully disagree that you cannot have both, and if Cal had not won one, then I suppose you could make that assumption. However, with the 2012 Championship, I think it destroys your argument. There are a lot of good programs out there that have played with 4 year players, that have not won nearly as much as UK, since Cal has been here. I don't care how good your players are, you are not going to win a NC every other year.
 
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exactly. You have to have a certain number of upperclassmen to break the curse. Whether they contribute a ton isn't important, it's their mystical upperclassmen super powers that does it.


I know it's an extremely frowned upon opinion to have on this board but I think there is some truth to the OP's point.

I am of the opinion that a team without contribution from an upperclassmen cannot win the title. History proves as much as it's never been done. UK's 2012 team, which was led by mostly underclassmen, had quite the significant contribution from one Darius Miller, who was a senior. Many have argued that a team led by star freshmen Anthony Davis and MKG would probably have won the title even without Miller. I would urge those people to go back and watch those tournament games and see who got the ball down in the paint when the Cats needed a basket. It was Miller and he was very effective.

The truth is, that team needed all those pieces to win. The problem going forward is that Cal has created a culture that, in my opinion, will never yield a team like that again (again, my opinion but please allow me to explain further through this very post). And without an upperclassmen contribution down the road, there will be no titles. History has proved that over and over. It simply cannot be argued otherwise, you MUST have contribution from an upperclassmen to win the title. Now could Cal go out and prove that wrong? Sure, anything is possible. But it's not probable.

So why won't Cal have another team like 2012? First of all, Cal has created a culture where the only players that actually become upperclassmen are either A). Players born and raised in KY (Miller, Willis, Hawkins, Etc)......B). Players that missed significant time due to injury (WCS, Poythress, etc).......or C). Walk-ons. All other players simply won't make it to their junior year's due to declaring or transferring. The culture at UK is that you better produce and go pro or you will be recruited over. Why else would a Briscoe or Humphries declare with no shot at being a first rounder, and no real guarantee that they'd even be drafted? They left because what happens if they come back? Their minutes go down due to incoming freshmen. It's risk vs reward for them. The only other option is to transfer (see Wiltjer, Lee, Charles Matthews, etc). All would have been fantastic upperclassmen contributors necessary for winning a title, but none of them stuck around. Why? Because they were recruited over. Which is fine, but there is a price to pay. When Cal had Briscoe coming back as a sophomore point guard did it keep him from going out and getting a freshmen point guard? No. He went and got Fox.

So you see Cal's created a culture where it really is failure to stay beyond 2 years. Well what about Hawkins and Willis? They were quality upperclassmen. Yes that's true. But neither were good enough to go pro, and they were KY kids so they stayed as opposed to transferring.

Let's examine the team from 2012 more closely. It had two players (Jones and Lamb) that any other year probably don't return. Had it not been for a potential NBA lockout those guys are one and done all day. Especially Jones, no way Cal let's a player like him stay. Think about how many players recently that Cal has said "you have to go". No way he allows Jones to return. Again, given the current climate at UK, I just don't see players like Jones and Lamb returning for sophomore years, let alone junior and senior years. We all thought Booker would be a two year player...gone. We thought Ulis would be a 3-4 year player.....gone. Quality players with aspirations of going pro simply can't stay beyond their sophomore years. It's too risky at UK. No upperclassmen = lesser chance for title.

I used to say all the time that Cal needs to find a way to get kids that are fringe first rounders to stay another year to try and solidify themselves as a guaranteed first round pick (and to help UK's team). But now I am realizing that it's too risky for these players to do. Especially a sophomore. Why is it risky to stay? Because you risk not getting the minutes due to the next batch of one and done. Without the minutes to prove yourself you won't get drafted.

My opinion is that if you are a highly touted player coming out of high school, you essentially get two years to "make it" if you go to UK. That's it. If you don't go pro, you will have already been recruited over. Your best option is to A) try to turn pro or B) transfer.

Let's take SKJ and Gabriel as possible players who could stay and become quality upperclassmen contributors. Let's say they have decent years this year but aren't anywhere near guaranteed first round draft picks, what will they do? My opinion is they will try and go pro. Why?The answer is because it's too risky to return. Cal's going to bring in another freshmen batch that will get all the minutes. SKJ and Gabriel may not get the minutes to improve their stock. Their best bet is to go pro and take their chances in the d-league or overseas.

To put a bow on this opinion; you might say "so what, Cal brings in the best players every year, we are always in the hunt". My response is, yes UK will be in the hunt but they won't win without the contribution of an upperclassmen. If you believe Cal can buck that trend then power to you. History says otherwise.

Last year's team had the perfect recipe to win the title but got screwed by the officials. What was the recipe? Quality upperclassmen in Willis and Hawkins combined with star freshmen in Bam, Fox, and Monk. The question going forward is, how can we get quality upperclassmen like Willis and Hawkins again? My opinion is that the culture dictates that you won't, unless they're KY born kids, or forced to stay due to injury. Otherwise, they won't exist.

So if it's so clear that a team must have contribution from an upperclassmen to win the title why doesn't Calipari try to get some kids to stick around? That's a great question.
 
My opinion is we cannot have both. Quality experienced depth wins championships.

If your happy with Final Fours and elite eights, one and done players will get it done.

It appears the "player first" philosophy dictates a program goal of getting players to the NBA over any other goal.

I love one and done players as much as anyone, but with moderation. The UK Program continues to recruit over players instead of developing the skills of those already apart of the team.

My favorite team, the Unforgettables, reveals what good coaching can produce. Without the miracle shot, that team would have probably won an NCAA Championship.
Such a garbage post. If we didn't get a corrupt whistle in the UNC game, we likely win it all this year, a lot of factors go into determining title winners.
 
I have to laugh when I read about something that can't be done when it has already happened and nearly happened 2 - 3 other times. My recommendation to the OP would be that he give at least 30 seconds thought to topics before posting. This topic and thread are well below even UMM standards.
How ya been carpe boy?
 
I have to laugh when I read about something that can't be done when it has already happened and nearly happened 2 - 3 other times. My recommendation to the OP would be that he give at least 30 seconds thought to topics before posting. This topic and thread are well below even UMM standards.


What happened to 15 seconds? :)
 
I know it's an extremely frowned upon opinion to have on this board but I think there is some truth to the OP's point.

I am of the opinion that a team without contribution from an upperclassmen cannot win the title. History proves as much as it's never been done. UK's 2012 team, which was led by mostly underclassmen, had quite the significant contribution from one Darius Miller, who was a senior. Many have argued that a team led by star freshmen Anthony Davis and MKG would probably have won the title even without Miller. I would urge those people to go back and watch those tournament games and see who got the ball down in the paint when the Cats needed a basket. It was Miller and he was very effective.

The truth is, that team needed all those pieces to win. The problem going forward is that Cal has created a culture that, in my opinion, will never yield a team like that again (again, my opinion but please allow me to explain further through this very post). And without an upperclassmen contribution down the road, there will be no titles. History has proved that over and over. It simply cannot be argued otherwise, you MUST have contribution from an upperclassmen to win the title. Now could Cal go out and prove that wrong? Sure, anything is possible. But it's not probable.

So why won't Cal have another team like 2012? First of all, Cal has created a culture where the only players that actually become upperclassmen are either A). Players born and raised in KY (Miller, Willis, Hawkins, Etc)......B). Players that missed significant time due to injury (WCS, Poythress, etc).......or C). Walk-ons. All other players simply won't make it to their junior year's due to declaring or transferring. The culture at UK is that you better produce and go pro or you will be recruited over. Why else would a Briscoe or Humphries declare with no shot at being a first rounder, and no real guarantee that they'd even be drafted? They left because what happens if they come back? Their minutes go down due to incoming freshmen. It's risk vs reward for them. The only other option is to transfer (see Wiltjer, Lee, Charles Matthews, etc). All would have been fantastic upperclassmen contributors necessary for winning a title, but none of them stuck around. Why? Because they were recruited over. Which is fine, but there is a price to pay. When Cal had Briscoe coming back as a sophomore point guard did it keep him from going out and getting a freshmen point guard? No. He went and got Fox.

So you see Cal's created a culture where it really is failure to stay beyond 2 years. Well what about Hawkins and Willis? They were quality upperclassmen. Yes that's true. But neither were good enough to go pro, and they were KY kids so they stayed as opposed to transferring.

Let's examine the team from 2012 more closely. It had two players (Jones and Lamb) that any other year probably don't return. Had it not been for a potential NBA lockout those guys are one and done all day. Especially Jones, no way Cal let's a player like him stay. Think about how many players recently that Cal has said "you have to go". No way he allows Jones to return. Again, given the current climate at UK, I just don't see players like Jones and Lamb returning for sophomore years, let alone junior and senior years. We all thought Booker would be a two year player...gone. We thought Ulis would be a 3-4 year player.....gone. Quality players with aspirations of going pro simply can't stay beyond their sophomore years. It's too risky at UK. No upperclassmen = lesser chance for title.

I used to say all the time that Cal needs to find a way to get kids that are fringe first rounders to stay another year to try and solidify themselves as a guaranteed first round pick (and to help UK's team). But now I am realizing that it's too risky for these players to do. Especially a sophomore. Why is it risky to stay? Because you risk not getting the minutes due to the next batch of one and done. Without the minutes to prove yourself you won't get drafted.

My opinion is that if you are a highly touted player coming out of high school, you essentially get two years to "make it" if you go to UK. That's it. If you don't go pro, you will have already been recruited over. Your best option is to A) try to turn pro or B) transfer.

Let's take SKJ and Gabriel as possible players who could stay and become quality upperclassmen contributors. Let's say they have decent years this year but aren't anywhere near guaranteed first round draft picks, what will they do? My opinion is they will try and go pro. Why?The answer is because it's too risky to return. Cal's going to bring in another freshmen batch that will get all the minutes. SKJ and Gabriel may not get the minutes to improve their stock. Their best bet is to go pro and take their chances in the d-league or overseas.

To put a bow on this opinion; you might say "so what, Cal brings in the best players every year, we are always in the hunt". My response is, yes UK will be in the hunt but they won't win without the contribution of an upperclassmen. If you believe Cal can buck that trend then power to you. History says otherwise.

Last year's team had the perfect recipe to win the title but got screwed by the officials. What was the recipe? Quality upperclassmen in Willis and Hawkins combined with star freshmen in Bam, Fox, and Monk. The question going forward is, how can we get quality upperclassmen like Willis and Hawkins again? My opinion is that the culture dictates that you won't, unless they're KY born kids, or forced to stay due to injury. Otherwise, they won't exist.

So if it's so clear that a team must have contribution from an upperclassmen to win the title why doesn't Calipari try to get some kids to stick around? That's a great question.


I thought you knew, Cal runs off all of his kids, don't you remember?
 
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If your happy with Final Fours and elite eights, one and done players will get it done.

My favorite team, the Unforgettables, reveals what good coaching can produce.
So your example of a team that you want is the 1992 team that went to the elite eight? You're stupidity is mind boggling. Even for a troll.
 
They are equally hard to come by. Does anyone here actually believe that if we stop chasing one and dones we will start winning championships? Nope. Might get one every 15 years.
 
They are equally hard to come by. Does anyone here actually believe that if we stop chasing one and dones we will start winning championships? Nope. Might get one every 15 years.

Considering we had 7 in the entire history of the sport pre-Cal, you might be right.
 
You know, that's an excellent point.

Cal's critics insist that getting good players that stay four years is by far the most likely path to win championships. Yet how many of them that recruit that way have recent multiple championships to back it up? So who then truly underachieves?

They can't argue it both ways.
I'll take underachieving if it means winning. I care about the number of championships Kentucky wins.
 
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There is no barrier preventing a team featuring a 5 freshman starting lineup from winning a championship. None. A magical basketball fairy with a sieve that filters out teams of a certain age is a fantasy of sports media. Having elite and good players is what matters. Talent and experience are both qualities that contribute to the ability of the individual and don't exist in a dichotomy.
 
I'll never forget the unforgettables (kinda the point I guess) But the funny thing is, you're saying that with all the one-and-dones that we'll never win a championship. Then you basically implied you wish we had more teams like that one........thaaaaaat didn't win a championship. You don't see the irony there?
Unforgettables were here in the bad times and stuck around. They were playing for the name on the front of the jersey.
 
My opinion is we cannot have both. Quality experienced depth wins championships.

If your happy with Final Fours and elite eights, one and done players will get it done.

It appears the "player first" philosophy dictates a program goal of getting players to the NBA over any other goal.

I love one and done players as much as anyone, but with moderation. The UK Program continues to recruit over players instead of developing the skills of those already apart of the team.

My favorite team, the Unforgettables, reveals what good coaching can produce. Without the miracle shot, that team would have probably won an NCAA Championship.

If you think the two are mutually exclusive, you haven't been paying attention. A mix of the two is one thing, but there doesn't have to be one extreme or the other, and those are your only options.

Unforgettables were pre-one and done era, that comparison doesn't apply.
 
Ive noticed a pattern with OP....... It takes him several days to weeks to finally get all the penis out of his mouth..... then he makes a troll post ... inserts penis back into his mouth and the cycle repeats itself.
 
To the OP, we all obviously would rather have one and dones. Easy choice. Please ask tougher questions.
 
We had experienced players to compliment the one and done players.

You call starting 2 sophomores experienced? Darius Miller was the lone upperclassmen contributor....OFF THE BENCH. We pretty much have some guys that come back every year.

I just think your theory is NOT reality tested. We can get 4 year guys & once in a blue moon be in a position win championship or recruit the best talent & be posed to make a legitimate deep run every year. Getting to:
-the elite eight 6 times,
-the seminal game 4 times,
-the championship game 2 times
-& winning the championship game once....all in 8

You really think we do better than that with 4 year less talented players? What other team has the last 8 seasons? NONE!
 
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