Lebron Averaged a Triple Double

[Bobcat94]

Lebron done about all he could do in this series. There is so little room for error against a offensive juggernaut like the Warriors that you have to be clicking on all cylinders the whole game. Love and Kyreigh seemed to disappear for small stretches. The 4th quarter last night KI was terrible.

 

[MWes11]

Morris? Really? Have you lost your mind?

Yes, Morris. He is very underrated and can do a lot of things on the court. I get it, he went to KU he sucks blah blah blah. But, he brings that physical mentality and edge that the Cavs desperately need, plus he can knock down jumpers and stretch the floor. Plus, Love can't defend anymore. If the Cavs could trade Love for Morris and Porter (Washington would never do this), but you take that deal in a heartbeat.

 

[WildMoon]

Yes, Morris. He is very underrated and can do a lot of things on the court. I get it, he went to KU he sucks blah blah blah. But, he brings that physical mentality and edge that the Cavs desperately need, plus he can knock down jumpers and stretch the floor. Plus, Love can't defend anymore. If the Cavs could trade Love for Morris and Porter (Washington would never do this), but you take that deal in a heartbeat.

uh...what?

 

[MWes11]

uh...what?

What is so hard to understand about trading Kevin Love for Otto Porter and Markieff Morris? It won't happen, but Cleveland would be getting the better deal.

Plus you are dumping Love's 21 million plus salary/year for a 5 million and 7 million dollar salary. Would give you 9 million in cap space to sign another player.

 

[Nubb16]

Trade Love/Kyrie for Westbrook/Kanter.

 

[LineSkiCat14]

Love did have the best season of his Cleveland career, and that was with an extended injury. But you won't be getting much value on a trade right now. Might be better to see what he does next year, and if he keeps improving getting back to his pre-cavs form?

 

[Blueaz]

Yes, Morris. He is very underrated and can do a lot of things on the court. I get it, he went to KU he sucks blah blah blah. But, he brings that physical mentality and edge that the Cavs desperately need, plus he can knock down jumpers and stretch the floor. Plus, Love can't defend anymore. If the Cavs could trade Love for Morris and Porter (Washington would never do this), but you take that deal in a heartbeat.

Wow… Morris sucks and it has nothing to do with KU. He is a little above average player and light years from being a decent human or quality teammate.

 

[UKWildcats#8]

What is so hard to understand about trading Kevin Love for Otto Porter and Markieff Morris? It won't happen, but Cleveland would be getting the better deal.

Plus you are dumping Love's 21 million plus salary/year for a 5 million and 7 million dollar salary. Would give you 9 million in cap space to sign another player.

That trade might result in a Warriors sweep next season of the Cavs.

 

[MWes11]

Wow… Morris sucks and it has nothing to do with KU. He is a little above average player and light years from being a decent human or quality teammate.

So averaging 14 ppg, shooting over 45% from 2, over 36% from 3 and over 83% from the FT line as a PF sucks now? And ask John Wall what kind of teammate he has been since he got to Washington. Wall has raved about him.

 

[LineSkiCat14]

Wall also has Andray Blatche and Javale McGee still fresh on his mind. Anyone is an improvement from those two knuckleheads.

 

[Blueaz]

So averaging 14 ppg, shooting over 45% from 2, over 36% from 3 and over 83% from the FT line as a PF sucks now? And ask John Wall what kind of teammate he has been since he got to Washington. Wall has raved about him.

Hey, we can agree to disagree...
But, get some reading comprehension. I said he's a little bit above average basketball player. But he definitely sucks as a human and teammate. Just check his rap sheet (at least three arrests) ask his teammates on the Suns how great he was (choked a teammate on the bench and attacked a coach).
You can carry your man crush somewhere else.
This will not deserve my discussion

 

[MWes11]

Hey, we can agree to disagree...
But, get some reading comprehension. I said he's a little bit above average basketball player. But he deafly sucks as a human and teammate. Just check his rap sheet (at least three arrests) ask his teammates on the Suns how great he was (choked a teammate on the bench and attacked a coach).
You can carry your man crush somewhere else.
This will not deserve my discussion

Yeah, I will go ahead and listen to his current teammate over a message board poster. I agree, he sucks as a human being off the court, but if Wall says he is a good teammate, I will go ahead and listen to him. But yes, agree to disagree.

 

[kb22stang]

If Lebron keeps jumping rosters its going to damage him. Stay put and make something happen.

Wow, no offense but this is an incredibly dumb thing to say. What more can he "make" happen then averaging a triple double in the finals? The guy is a player, not the GM .

These finals are another example why titles and rings are a horrible way to rank players. He averaged a triple double and yet the knock on him will be that he doesn't have enough rings.

 

[Blueaz]

Wow, no offense but this is an incredibly dumb thing to say. What more can he "make" happen then averaging a triple double in the finals? The guy is a player, not the GM .

These finals are another example why titles and rings are a horrible way to rank players. He averaged a triple double and yet the knock on him will be that he doesn't have enough rings.

Everyone says he always makes those around him better. (He is one if not the best player ever)...but, who is better when they played with him? Not Love, not Irving... IMO he does not make others better. He is just so good the team has to be better. Jmo

 

[WildMoon]

What is so hard to understand about trading Kevin Love for Otto Porter and Markieff Morris? It won't happen, but Cleveland would be getting the better deal.

Plus you are dumping Love's 21 million plus salary/year for a 5 million and 7 million dollar salary. Would give you 9 million in cap space to sign another player.

just shocked at the terrible idea that can come out of these messaging board.

That's all.

 

[Blueaz]

Yeah, I will go ahead and listen to his current teammate over a message board poster. I agree, he sucks as a human being off the court, but if Wall says he is a good teammate, I will go ahead and listen to him. But yes, agree to disagree.

My last word. Do you honestly expect you all to say he's a "bad teammate"? How often have you heard other players call one player a bad teammate? That hardly ever happens.
And how can choking another player and attacking a coach be qualified as a good teammate?

 

[MWes11]

My last word. Do you honestly expect you all to say he's a "bad teammate"? How often have you heard other players call one player a bad teammate? That hardly ever happens.
And how can choking another player and attacking a coach be qualified as a good teammate?

I get what you are saying, trust me. His actions in the past were terrible. But ever since he has been with the Wizards, i haven't heard any of his teammates criticize him or that he has been a cancer in the locker room. These type of things always get out, and all I am saying is that I haven't heard anything when he was with the Wiz.

 

[Big_Blue79]

But yeah the Spurs would be ideal. I was saying that to my buddies during the game. With Kawhi and Pop, Lebron could do some damage. Plus get rid of Alderidge and bring in CP3. Not a cap genius but if the Warriors can have 4 all stars, why not?

A lot had to go right for the Warriors to get 4 stars that, frankly, just can't happen again. The Ringer had a good article about it recently, but the highlights are: 1) 2x MVP playing for $11m due to injury concerns (stayed healthy); 2) draft two All Star level talents with 11th pick and second rounder, and get both to sign for slightly less than a max; 3) top 3 NBA player hitting free agency and ready to leave current team; 4) unprecedented cap spike with zero smoothing (NBAPA rejected owners' attempt to smooth out the bump) just in time for former MVP to sign; and 5) Durant willing to take less than a max (stated). #4 is really the crux of the issue.

Rack. One reason Magic, Jordan, and Bird are so beloved is they stayed with one team

Congratulations to all of them for being drafted by good organizations. Of course, it's akin to saying that we admire the children of the rich (born into rich family similar to being drafted by great organization), but still! Congrats to them!

I don't see Durant staying with golden state after his contract is up. I would love to see him go back home to Washington DC, and pull a lebron. Durant is a luxury to that team. He got his ring now he can go make nice with okc or go back home and build the wizards

His contract is up right now. Wizards have no way to sign or otherwise acquire him. That ship sailed last year.

Curry is a UFA now. Making $12mil, I have to imagine he's going to get, AT LEAST another $10 mil, but maybe another 15-18 mil. Who knows a lot about salary caps and contracts? I have to imagine someone has to go.. Maybe a Klay or Draymond in an attempt to keep the bench decent?

He'll get a supermax of 5 years/$207m. So next year he will make ~ $36m, and his salary will escalate every year.

What is so hard to understand about trading Kevin Love for Otto Porter and Markieff Morris? It won't happen, but Cleveland would be getting the better deal.

Plus you are dumping Love's 21 million plus salary/year for a 5 million and 7 million dollar salary. Would give you 9 million in cap space to sign another player.

Porter is about to get paid ~ $20m/year. Even if that weren't the case, Cleveland is way over the cap and would have to clear a lot more to get any cap space whatsoever. So it's a straight up swap, only Cleveland ends up paying Porter + Morris more than Love is making. Interesting idea, but I think they can do better for Love.

Trade Love/Kyrie for Westbrook/Kanter.

Why would the Cavs do this? Irving, for all his faults (he's a complete turd on D, for one), is a better fit for Lebron than Westbrook (also subpar on D, but not as bad). Kanter is completely, utterly unplayable against the Warriors, which is the only point of any trade, and is worse than Love at everything but offensive rebounding. Maybe Kyrie/Thompson for Westbrook/Kanter, but why would OKC do that?

 

[wildcatsboston1984]

Curry is a UFA now. Making $12mil, I have to imagine he's going to get, AT LEAST another $10 mil, but maybe another 15-18 mil. Who knows a lot about salary caps and contracts? I have to imagine someone has to go.. Maybe a Klay or Draymond in an attempt to keep the bench decent?

The Warriors can sign him to the max regardless of what the salary cap is because they have his Bird Rights.

 

[wildcatsboston1984]

What is so hard to understand about trading Kevin Love for Otto Porter and Markieff Morris? It won't happen, but Cleveland would be getting the better deal.

Plus you are dumping Love's 21 million plus salary/year for a 5 million and 7 million dollar salary. Would give you 9 million in cap space to sign another player.

With the role Love has been relegated to, yeah I'd rather have Porter and Morris. This isn't the same Love that dominated in Minny. If Love was being used in a similar capacity to what he was in Minny then I;d rather have him.

Same as it was with Bosh. I'd rather have the Toronto Bosh than the Heat Bosh

 

[HoptownCat93]

This post is not to take away from LeBron in any way, but does it seem the triple-double is becoming a normal stat line for ball dominant players in the modern game? We see more and more forwards being able to handle the ball and shoot, guys like Julius Randle can get rebounds, score 10 points, and then with more 3 point shooting just kick it out for 3.

We saw Westbrook average one and Harden put up numbers close to one as well. Even at Kentucky this year, we went from 1 in history to having 2 players do it in the same year.

What LeBron did was amazing as always for sure, but it seems like the triple-double averages from ball-dominant star players will be a new norm. Maybe not 10-15 players doing it...but 1-2 players every year coming close to averaging one and a lot of players getting them in games.

 

[wildcatsboston1984]

This post is not to take away from LeBron in any way, but does it seem the triple-double is becoming a normal stat line for ball dominant players in the modern game? We see more and more forwards being able to handle the ball and shoot, guys like Julius Randle can get rebounds, score 10 points, and then with more 3 point shooting just kick it out for 3.

We saw Westbrook average one and Harden put up numbers close to one as well. Even at Kentucky this year, we went from 1 in history to having 2 players do it in the same year.

What LeBron did was amazing as always for sure, but it seems like the triple-double averages from ball-dominant star players will be a new norm. Maybe not 10-15 players doing it...but 1-2 players every year coming close to averaging one and a lot of players getting them in games.

Just shows today's players are much more skilled than those of yesteryear. But averaging a triple double over any extended period of time is going to still be very extremely rare. It's going to require an absolute exceptional player who can play the PG position but is either much bigger than the typical PG (like Magic and LeBron) or one who is a freak athlete that crashes the glass a lot because his bigs can't defensive rebound (like Westbrook in OKC this year)

 

[Big_Blue79]

With the role Love has been relegated to, yeah I'd rather have Porter and Morris.

What if Porter was making $20m+?

 

[LineSkiCat14]

The Warriors can sign him to the max regardless of what the salary cap is because they have his Bird Rights.

..and they don't have to give up any players in an effort to stay under the cap?

Warriors are a 4-star team where only 1 of them is getting the proper contract. Now there will be 2. I was under the impression they would have to let someone go to pull out this max contract for Curry.

That was kind of the only hope to beat GSW, is that what they had wasn;t sustainable. If they can pay Curry and keep their big4 until Klay/Green need max money.. this might be a long few years ahead of NBA fans..

 

[MWes11]

With the role Love has been relegated to, yeah I'd rather have Porter and Morris. This isn't the same Love that dominated in Minny. If Love was being used in a similar capacity to what he was in Minny then I;d rather have him.

Same as it was with Bosh. I'd rather have the Toronto Bosh than the Heat Bosh

This is pretty much what I was getting at. If you could bring back the Minnesota Kevin Love, then yes, you absolutely keep him. But he has been injury prone and his role has been relegated to spot up three point shooter and once in a blue moon throw it to him in the post player. He can still rebound at a nice clip, though. But with his injuries, I would try to ship him and get what you can get for him.

 

[wildcatsboston1984]

What if Porter was making $20m+?

Everyone worth a damn is going to be making that before long

 

[wildcatsboston1984]

..and they don't have to give up any players in an effort to stay under the cap?

Warriors are a 4-star team where only 1 of them is getting the proper contract. Now there will be 2. I was under the impression they would have to let someone go to pull out this max contract for Curry.

That was kind of the only hope to beat GSW, is that what they had wasn;t sustainable. If they can pay Curry and keep their big4 until Klay/Green need max money.. this might be a long few years ahead of NBA fans..

They don't have to stay under the cap to resign Curry. Bird Rights means they can go over the cap to sign him.

 

[MWes11]

What if Porter was making $20m+?

Then no, it won't work.

 

[sefus12]

Everyone says he always makes those around him better. (He is one if not the best player ever)...but, who is better when they played with him? Not Love, not Irving... IMO he does not make others better. He is just so good the team has to be better. Jmo

This may go down as one of the hotter takes on this thread. Irving and Love haven't put up as big of stats due to several issues, mainly that you have the best player on the planet with you now, but to act like LBJ doesn't make the game easier for his teammates is simply absurd.

 

[HoptownCat93]

This may go down as one of the hotter takes on this thread. Irving and Love haven't put up as big of stats due to several issues, mainly that you have the best player on the planet with you now, but to act like LBJ doesn't make the game easier for his teammates is simply absurd.

And they're better when he's in the game because he is very ball dominant and is highly involved in every play. That's great when he's on the floor, but I think it hurts the team overall when he leaves the floor and nobody knows what to do without him.

The 90's Bulls, Spurs, and Warriors do/did a good job of moving the ball around and getting everyone involved all year to where they aren't shocked when they have to play without certain players. The Cavs rely on Kyrie and LeBron holding the ball at the top of the key and waiting for something to develop so they can create. When you have stars like that (and Westbrook too), they can create and get it done while they are on the floor..but when its time for a Deron Williams or Shumpert to pick up some slack..there really is not an offense to run. Kevin Love is to the point he just fights for rebounds and waits for the ball to be kicked to him open behind the line.

When LeBron was with the Heat, Riley did a great job of building a team and grooming LeBron to where he did not have to have control on every possession and every front office move and could just play ball. LeBron did not have to play 40 minutes with the Heat because they had a good system where even a Mario Chalmers or Norris Cole could handle things if need be. I think its more on the Cavs lack of structure. Poor management and poor coaching...no leadership to ease pressure off of LeBron or tell him when he may need to take a step back.

 

[Big_Blue79]

^ that's pure narrative. Norris Cole was and is a bad NBA player. Chalmers regularly got yelled at for screwing up to the point that it became a meme. In 2014, the Heat melted down without Lebron - remember the cramps game that the Spurs ended on a run once Lebron sat? Lebron played 38/game in those playoffs. In the Finals, he put up a 22 game score; no one else had more than Bosh's 10. That's putrid.

In these playoffs, the Cavs put up a 120 offensive rating going into the Finals (historically great), and then put up 114.6 against the Warriors, which is still an elite offense (against a top 2 defense). The problem isn't that the Cavs don't know what to do when Lebron is out - Kyrie and Love are great offensive options, and if Lue can't build an offense to suit them when Lebron sits then he's a bad coach. But the problem is 1) Cav's defense still not that good, and 2) the Warriors are a top 3 team of all time.

 

[wentzel25]

Everyone says he always makes those around him better. (He is one if not the best player ever)...but, who is better when they played with him? Not Love, not Irving... IMO he does not make others better. He is just so good the team has to be better. Jmo

Kyrie is way better now than he was before LeBron. Love is suffering from moving from the only option to the 3rd option, of course that will make anybody's scoring drop off.
LeBron made Mo Williams look like an all-star in his first run in Cleveland. JR Smith and Iman Shumpert are journeymen and have unquestionably played the best ball of their lives with LeBron.
Not to mention, how did Cleveland do the year he left? How did Miami do the year he left.
I'll pose this question, as well. What teammate or former teammate of Lebron's had a better run after leaving his team?

 

[morgousky]

Wow, no offense but this is an incredibly dumb thing to say. What more can he "make" happen then averaging a triple double in the finals? The guy is a player, not the GM .

These finals are another example why titles and rings are a horrible way to rank players. He averaged a triple double and yet the knock on him will be that he doesn't have enough rings.

I said if he jumps rosters again its going to damage him. Where the rest of your rant came in I have no idea. Lebron is a goat, jumping around will damage him. Maybe not to you, but you arent writing the books on legacy either.

 

[king of cali]

^ that's pure narrative. Norris Cole was and is a bad NBA player. Chalmers regularly got yelled at for screwing up to the point that it became a meme. In 2014, the Heat melted down without Lebron - remember the cramps game that the Spurs ended on a run once Lebron sat? Lebron played 38/game in those playoffs. In the Finals, he put up a 22 game score; no one else had more than Bosh's 10. That's putrid.

In these playoffs, the Cavs put up a 120 offensive rating going into the Finals (historically great), and then put up 114.6 against the Warriors, which is still an elite offense (against a top 2 defense). The problem isn't that the Cavs don't know what to do when Lebron is out - Kyrie and Love are great offensive options, and if Lue can't build an offense to suit them when Lebron sits then he's a bad coach. But the problem is 1) Cav's defense still not that good, and 2) the Warriors are a top 3 team of all time.

 

[HoptownCat93]

The problem isn't that the Cavs don't know what to do when Lebron is out - Kyrie and Love are great offensive options, and if Lue can't build an offense to suit them when Lebron sits then he's a bad coach. But the problem is 1) Cav's defense still not that good, and 2) the Warriors are a top 3 team of all time.

I think firing Blatt is a mistake long term for LeBron. Blatt knew how to build an offense and mold a team and knew how to get an offense to click. I just don't think LeBron and him clicked because of the pressure to win ASAP. Lue found a way to maximize Bron and Kyrie's strengths...but is a little lost when it comes to the rest of the teams.

Blatt coached them to game 6 without Love and Kyrie and also utilized players like Delly, Mozgov, and Shump to get to that point. Kyrie was hurt the first part of last year and Blatt still had them in first place.

Lue just is not a figure that runs that team, LeBron runs that team and Lue is just a guide to help them along the way.

 

[sefus12]

And they're better when he's in the game because he is very ball dominant and is highly involved in every play. That's great when he's on the floor, but I think it hurts the team overall when he leaves the floor and nobody knows what to do without him.

The 90's Bulls, Spurs, and Warriors do/did a good job of moving the ball around and getting everyone involved all year to where they aren't shocked when they have to play without certain players. The Cavs rely on Kyrie and LeBron holding the ball at the top of the key and waiting for something to develop so they can create. When you have stars like that (and Westbrook too), they can create and get it done while they are on the floor..but when its time for a Deron Williams or Shumpert to pick up some slack..there really is not an offense to run. Kevin Love is to the point he just fights for rebounds and waits for the ball to be kicked to him open behind the line.

When LeBron was with the Heat, Riley did a great job of building a team and grooming LeBron to where he did not have to have control on every possession and every front office move and could just play ball. LeBron did not have to play 40 minutes with the Heat because they had a good system where even a Mario Chalmers or Norris Cole could handle things if need be. I think its more on the Cavs lack of structure. Poor management and poor coaching...no leadership to ease pressure off of LeBron or tell him when he may need to take a step back.

I think roster make-up is a huge issue for the Cavs and saying a team is better with Lebron on the floor than off the floor is always going to be true, but there's no way to argue that LBJ doesn't make the guys he plays with better.

 

[JHannibalSmith]

Using that logic, what then should we make of Durant hightailing it to a 73 win team?

Personally, I think Durant going to GS was a spineless, chickenshit move. I understand guys chasing a ring at the end of their career but Durant is one of the best 2-3 players on the planet & he's in his prime. And, it's bad enough that he didn't feel like he could lead his own team to an eventual championship but he jumped to the team that ended his season last year. And, it took GS 7 games & a big OKC choke job to finish them off. When you're THAT close how do you tuck tail & admit defeat instead of coming back the next season motivated & on a mission? Where is the pride? It's a joke. Larry Bird would've retired before he would've given up on beating Magic & joined the Lakers. With Durant's mindset Jordan would've been a Piston after his first contract expired. Now, I don't feel this way about every garden variety all-star player. But, IMO it is incredibly weak for a player as good as KD to kneel down & basically say, "I can't beat you."

 

[nascarforthedead]

Kyrie is way better now than he was before LeBron. Love is suffering from moving from the only option to the 3rd option, of course that will make anybody's scoring drop off.
LeBron made Mo Williams look like an all-star in his first run in Cleveland. JR Smith and Iman Shumpert are journeymen and have unquestionably played the best ball of their lives with LeBron.
Not to mention, how did Cleveland do the year he left? How did Miami do the year he left.
I'll pose this question, as well. What teammate or former teammate of Lebron's had a better run after leaving his team?

This isn't a factually based response at all. The 2 years prior to playing for the Cavs, Mo Williams averaged about the same points and more assists. His numbers continued to go down with the Cavs. Larry Hughes' numbers went down once he joined the Cavs. He was an All-Star and then once he joined the Cavs, all we heard was how he's trash. The past 3 years with Cleveland, JR Smith has actually averaged below his career ppg. LeBron did average a triple double and he was pretty great offensively in the series but, his defense was not good at all. Why doesn't anyone mention this aspect?

 

[Big_Blue79]

LeBron did average a triple double and he was pretty great offensively in the series but, his defense was not good at all. Why doesn't anyone mention this aspect?

I've seen it mentioned all over the place, which is why some people use +/- to show how awesome Lebron was overall: against the Warriors, the Cavs were +7 in Lebron's minutes, and -455 when he sat (all numbers approximate).

 

[HoptownCat93]

I've seen it mentioned all over the place, which is why some people use +/- to show how awesome Lebron was overall: against the Warriors, the Cavs were +7 in Lebron's minutes, and -455 when he sat (all numbers approximate).

I would say generally that's the case with any star player that's team is built around him. OKC was far worse w/o Westbrook on the floor...Houston w/o Harden...LAC w/o Paul.