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Whatever floats your boat chokehawk guy. And not for nothing but you bringing up NCAA sanctions is rich. We have been squeaky clean since 1989. You?
KU's 10985th in a row big 12 title starts today
- Thread starter caneintally
- Start date
Whatever floats your boat chokehawk guy. And not for nothing but you bringing up NCAA sanctions is rich. We have been squeaky clean since 1989. You?
I believe 4 of those "12" straight championships r shared. 2 of those the fortunate Squawks were the 2 seed in the conference tournament which means they did not really win the Big 12. It is all media propaganda. To the non KU fans around the Big 12 & Kansas City area we know this as a complete farce as well as Self's "hair".
Again, Schwagg you are not using those words correctly - fabrication and lie. The 'Streak' is real. It's a fact. It is something you can look up and read. Kansas won 11-straight Big12 titles. Google 'Big12 Basketball Champions'. If you want to say that winning conference titles isn't important or the importance of that 'Streak' is overblown, then make that point. But to say it didn't happen is kind of ostrich-like stick-your-head-in-the-sand behavior.
I will give you bonus point for knowing that Jayhawks aren't real birds.
I will give you bonus point for knowing that Jayhawks aren't real birds.
But, you sound more like a MethZoo fan than a Kentucky fan...if that is the case, I bet there are many words that you use incorrectly in your everyday usage. I now understand and acknowledge the difficulties that you face.
I don't think this year it's going to be even close.
Kansas is really good this year, and they are even better playing at Phog. This Kentucky team is a Tyler Ulis injury away from an NIT team, very similar to 2013. This Kansas team is a prototypical Self championship caliber team and Kentucky is going to have to wait a year.
Kansas is really good this year, and they are even better playing at Phog. This Kentucky team is a Tyler Ulis injury away from an NIT team, very similar to 2013. This Kansas team is a prototypical Self championship caliber team and Kentucky is going to have to wait a year.
How bout the media slobber over the "accomplishment" of Calipari getting a team with 40-0 hype to the final four. When your regular season is so underwhelming as to make everyone forget their own expectations for you, it's a little easier to impress come tourney time.
Compare/trash talk all you want, but here are the facts:
Calipari has had 25 draft picks in 6 yrs at Kentucky. Most of them lottery. Many are NBA stars or budding stars. KU, meanwhile, has one budding star in Wiggins (in the Self era).
I hope you all realize that comparing the final fours of the two is a little ludicrous. You should be comparing him to John Wooden, considering the level of talent he's had at his disposal. Doesn't quite measure up, does he?
Self has obviously had more tournament disappointments than a fan would hope for, but there's a lot of luck involved in a one-and-done tourney. Some of them are pretty easy to explain, such as losing Embiid. When Calipari lost a player of that stature, he got Robert Morrised.
By the way, the tourney resume of Coach K (widely considered the greatest coach in CBB) is very similar to Self's over the last decade. K has 2 titles, Self 1 with a runner-up. K has THREE first round exits and a 2nd round exit in that span.
Anyone who is objective and uses a shred of logic should realize that player development and win % are better indicators of a coach's abilities than number of final fours. Especially when dealing with relatively small sample sizes.
A few years ago, no one was disputing Self's abilities as a coach. A few early tourney exits later (albeit with key players missing/hurt), and he again sucks in the minds of the public.
If he were to win it all this year, the talk will surround his newfound tournament coaching skills and what he did differently. He didn't do anything differently, fools. You'd think that a group of people who invest their entire lives into this sport would have a more mature understanding of it.
Calipari has had 25 draft picks in 6 yrs at Kentucky. Most of them lottery. Many are NBA stars or budding stars. KU, meanwhile, has one budding star in Wiggins (in the Self era).
I hope you all realize that comparing the final fours of the two is a little ludicrous. You should be comparing him to John Wooden, considering the level of talent he's had at his disposal. Doesn't quite measure up, does he?
Self has obviously had more tournament disappointments than a fan would hope for, but there's a lot of luck involved in a one-and-done tourney. Some of them are pretty easy to explain, such as losing Embiid. When Calipari lost a player of that stature, he got Robert Morrised.
By the way, the tourney resume of Coach K (widely considered the greatest coach in CBB) is very similar to Self's over the last decade. K has 2 titles, Self 1 with a runner-up. K has THREE first round exits and a 2nd round exit in that span.
Anyone who is objective and uses a shred of logic should realize that player development and win % are better indicators of a coach's abilities than number of final fours. Especially when dealing with relatively small sample sizes.
A few years ago, no one was disputing Self's abilities as a coach. A few early tourney exits later (albeit with key players missing/hurt), and he again sucks in the minds of the public.
If he were to win it all this year, the talk will surround his newfound tournament coaching skills and what he did differently. He didn't do anything differently, fools. You'd think that a group of people who invest their entire lives into this sport would have a more mature understanding of it.
So, the capriciousness of a one and done tournament is a mitigating factor for Self not winning more titles, but not so for Calipari, who should have a Wooden-like dynasty according to you?
Like the avatar.
It's a mitigating factor for both. Calipari has had more than enough talent to win at least two more national titles, just as Self has had more than enough talent to avoid the early exits.
My point was that it's idiotic to declare Calipari a clearly superior coach on the basis of having more final four appearances.
It would be like comparing his tourney resume to that of Tubby Smith or Gillispie (a talent level similar to that of KU's under Self, btw). You just can't.
Two quick points, since I know you put a lot of thought into your post.
1. What does all that have to do with the teams Kentucky and Kansas have on the court THIS year?
2. Calipari's resume at Kentucky has been impressive as it should be when he is fielding a team each season with 6-8 one and done or two and done NBA talented players compared to the field which may field zero to one or two of the same.
I could not care less about NBA achievements, as I'm a college basketball fan.
Wiggins, Robinson, Embid, Selby, Alexander, McLemore, Oubre, Diallo, Selden, Morris Twins, Chalmers, Arthur, Rush, Simien, Taylor, Wright, Arthur, Collins, Withey, Henry, Aldrich, Ellis, Giddens, Miles, etc.
Yeah, Self has really been playing a lousy hand.
Bill Self is an excellent coach. Easily one of the top 3-5 in the NCAA. That doesn't change the fact his team's have underperformed in the NCAA Tournament. In 10 seasons, they have 5 losses to double digit seeds, many coming on the first weekend. 7 of his 9 NCAA Tournament losses have come to lower seeded teams. Unless things change, that will continue to be a part of Self's legacy. Just like its part of Dean Smith's history.
And yes, K has had some stinkers in the NCAA, but he gets a pass because he has 4 championships and 800 Final Fours. If Self wins more titles and goes to a bunch of Final Fours people won't talk about Bradley, Bucknell, Northern Iowa, Stanford, VCU, etc. like they do now.
One other thing. What's Kansas fans deal with Robert Morris? No one cares. Not UK fans, players, coaches, and probably not even Robert Morris. That was the NIT. That loss doesn't even register on my painful scale. At least say UAB or something. That loss was quite painful.
So is your argument that Self has done well for having a lot less than Cal, or that Cal should more than the same number of titles as Self based upon the enormous disparity in talent compared to any other team in CBB?
Very nice post. No doubt, Self has had a few unexpected losses in the tournament. I think anyone would envy the results Izzo has amassed in the tournament. Obviously, there's no magic solution or Self wouldn't have as many upsets, and Izzo would be able to have a more consistent regular season.
The only point you mention that is a bit skewed is number of losses to lower ranked seeds. His success every season has been the direct result of the benefit of getting a very high seed. A 1 or a 2 has been the overwhelming norm. So, his teams have been the beneficiary of doing well to earn a high seed. Also, for anyone going to complain about it as a byproduct of the B12, the SEC is consistently year to year a weaker conference, and UK has enjoyed the spoils of their conference affiliation. More importantly, KU almost always schedules one of the toughest out of conference schedules every year. They're typically in the top 5, and rarely ever outside the top 10.
If one wants to criticize Self for that, it's perfectly valid, but it's disingenuous to downplay that he's not a great coach, and already a future Hall of Famer. There might be 3 or 4 places in the country at the most that wouldn't trade in a heartbeat to have him coaching their program.
No coach has done less with more in the tournament than Self. He is 1 lucky shot & a bunch of bricks from the free throw line from being the worst tournament coach in sports history.
If only you were available to take over as head coach. All the problems would be solved.
There's no point in discussing it with you. You're an absolutist entrenched in one myopic and unintelligible viewpoint. Hyperbole, moronic blanket statements and $1 will buy you a cup of coffee.
Brush up and when you have a better acumen instead of speaking beyond your depth feel free to contribute for the first real time.
Exactly. The perception would change completely. My point is that it's a bit of a ridiculous approach to wait until a guy has coached for 40 years, then tally the final fours to find out if he had a good career. More or less, this is what the average person does.
I haven't heard anyone say that K has lost a step, and yet his tourney resume is the same, if not worse, than Self's over the last decade. Even with another title last year.
Why don't we just use our eyes to judge a coach's ability? This KU team is light years better than last year, and it's the same group minus a top 15 draft pick. Diallo has contributed nothing to this point.
You are a Methzoo fan, not a Kentucky fan...Quite honestly, you really should have your team make a Final Four before you comment on other teams' Final Fours. When does MethZoo start their own basketball team?
Yeah, it was pretty underwhelming, beating your sorry butts by 30.
The year before, big guy. Remember those 40-0 shirts your fans made?
Still made it to the final four, where were you guys?The year before, big guy. Remember those 40-0 shirts your fans made?
A prototypical Self championship team? He's only had one. The other closest one lost to Kentucky.
Lol unless you mean the Big 12.
Yes and his last 3 "championship caliber teams" (11-2012,12-2013, 14-2015) haven't won anything besides another Big XII title. Unless that's what @foreverandaday meant by championship? According to him/her we should just cancel the season.
Granted, this year's KU team should win it, am I right?
Not sure that anyone was implying the season should be cancelled.
Just like no program cancels its season when Calipari has a roster that is 3X more talented than anyone else's.
For the record, the last championship-caliber KU team was 2013. The Embiid team may have been a contender with, you know...Embiid.
Just like no program cancels its season when Calipari has a roster that is 3X more talented than anyone else's.
For the record, the last championship-caliber KU team was 2013. The Embiid team may have been a contender with, you know...Embiid.
Last year's team was basically the same add Oubre, minus Bragg, Diallo. I would say they were contenders until they ran into the Shockers.
Kansas is kenpom #7 in adj def: Kentucky is #14.
Kansas is kenpom #7 in adj off: Kentucky is #23
I think those are surface difference. The true difference is deeper. Selden is playing a different position. With Wiggins and Oubre playing the #3 before, he was forced to play the #2. He struggled with that. Because he wasn't playing at a high level, he also didn't take the 'Alpha Dog' role that he is playing now. Cliff's issues make him unpredictable and unusable. He never produced. Ellis spent the last 6 weeks of the season nursing a knee. Graham is key addition to this year; played a supporting role last season. He gives the second point guard to Self's offense. Playing and practicing this summer with the World University games gave a head start into this season. Greene becoming a more of a complete player instead of just a shooter. Experience goes a long ways in NCAA basketball.
They were not contenders last season. We were not a very good team.
Nah would rather talk about Cal's head to head record vs Self or overall record between both programs. Self's toupee is passe.
That's cool and all, but what is Cal's past record going to do in guaranteeing a win at KU with different players and different experience levels?
No objective KU fan considered last year's team a realistic contender. Weakest KU team in at least 15 years.
Well only 1 of those has won a title. Your friend seems to think a prototypical Self championship contender should be a done deal. No use in UK trying this season.
"This Kansas team is a prototypical Self championship caliber team and Kentucky is going to have to wait a year."
The year before, big guy. Remember those 40-0 shirts your fans made?
Yes I do. Too bad that you don't cheer for a program that 40-0 is a possibility.
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