KHSAA: Should Private Schools Get Their Own Division?

[HeismaNole]

I've seen this debate in the comment sections online after Sacred Heart won their fifth straight state championship in girls basketball.

In terms of boys basketball, a private school has only won it six times since 1962 with four of those six being from 2012-2019. The girls, however, have had a private school win it 15 times since 1999.

But some other sports are crazy. There has NEVER been a public school that has won a girls volleyball state championship. Swimming and diving is crazy too. St. X has won every single boys swimming and diving state title since 1988. The girls have had Sacred Heart win it every year since 2013. In boys tennis, a public school has only won it three times since 1982. Girls private schools dominate that too but to a lesser extent.

I NEVER want the boys basketball tournament to go away from one champ as it makes the tournament special. But it appears to be a real issue with some of the other sports.

 

[HeismaNole]

Sacred Heart's tuition is $17K a year. How many of these basketball players come from families who are paying that type of money? Or is this like what Lex Cath used to do where the star players get their tuition paid for by someone else or they get such a financial break that it's peanuts?

 

[LineSkiCat14]

In NY, the private and prep schools are definitely recruiting and offering some form of financial aid to poach the areas best athletes. I would think a place like Sacred Heart is doing something similar.

I feel like for my state, it doesn't matter. The private schools seem to have the edge, but if some of the local high schools actually put the effort in, they do well.. if they don't care about sports, then they don't.

And it's not like the public schools don't have some advantages also. Free school and trying to build a basketball team, is a heck of a lot easier than if you're charging some form of tuition (even if at times it gets covered). Private schools also have some form of standards. Remember the infamous Cinci/Xavier fight back in like 2010? Mark Lyons was apart of that and he went to Schenectady Highschool near me.. basically a shitty inner city school. He would not have lasted in private school.

 

[bthaunert]

I haven’t lived in Kentucky since 1981 ( I was 5), so take this with a grain of salt. I looked at volleyball, softball and girls soccer. IMO, they should move to multiple divisions by school size.. I get keeping 1 single division in basketball based on tradition in a basketball crazy state, but what’s the reason for that in other sports? Why are there 6 divisions in football but only 1 in volleyball, softball, soccer, etc (I think)?

 

[Wildcats1st]

NO! I ran a public program in KHSAA and we had a couple private schools in our league. They only raised the bar and it was a tough league public/private lex catholic was always beatable. A lot of coaches in our school bitched about the private schools but in soccer we went out and kicked butt!

 

[HeismaNole]

Why are there 6 divisions in football but only 1 in volleyball, softball, soccer, etc (I think)?

Great point.

 

[cbrwalt]

Absolutely, 1,000,000 % yes

Public schools and private schools are on 2 completely different playing fields in many different ways

You could have the public school champ play the private school champ.


Or just put all the private schools in one district. That is 100 percent what Jefferson Co needs to do


Only people in private schools will vote no, for the most part

 

[Deli owl]

If they play and recruit by the same rules it wouldn't matter.

 

[HeismaNole]

Absolutely, 1,000,000 % yes

Public schools and private schools are on 2 completely different playing fields in many different ways

You could have the public school champ play the private school champ.


Or just put all the private schools in one district. That is 100 percent what Jefferson Co needs to do


Only people in private schools will vote no, for the most part

I see this on a lesser level in youth sports. We always coach youth basketball and flag football and you'll get just random kids assigned to you but maybe one buddy request fulfilled but then there's always a team in the league that stacks their team and the leagues just allow it and they always win. That's because every other team has a few kids who are good and a chunk of who are just learning or what not compared to some douche that stacks a travel team. What does anyone gain from that, ya know?

I can't explain why private schools haven't dominated boys basketball but there's just such a huge advantage for being able to ignore district lines and get a kid free/discounted private school compared to "I have to field a competitive team in this specific zoned area."

If we had school choice, this would help even things out yet the state shot that down.

 

[Nuke99m]

Not in basketball. Football is another story. I looked and in 107 years, Trinity has won 3 state titles. Saint Xavier has won 5.

 

[HeismaNole]

Not in basketball. Football is another story. I looked and in 107 years, Trinity has won 3 state titles. Saint Xavier has won 5.

It's not a boys basketball issue. It's overwhelmingly a girls athletics issue and an issue in boys swimming, tennis, and soccer, I believe.


Boys basketball
Private schools who won it all (some schools on the champs list don't exist anymore so not sure if there's a private one I'm missing)

1926 St. X
1935 St. X
1958 St. X
1960 Flaget (I think this was private)
1962 St. X
1992 University Heights
2002 Lexington Catholic
2012 Trinity
2014 Cov Cath
2018 Cov Cath
2019 Trinity

 

[DrH. Lecter]

Sacred Heart's tuition is $17K a year. How many of these basketball players come from families who are paying that type of money? Or is this like what Lex Cath used to do where the star players get their tuition paid for by someone else or they get such a financial break that it's peanuts?

G-School players get their full tuition paid for by me, you, the tax payers. Free tuition is a great recruiting tool so I'd say that the pubs have a huge advantage. You actually have to PAY for a G-School kid PLUS tuition to a private school for your own kid. Public schools must REALLY suck for parents to pay essentially double tuition. That is the real question that should be asked. Why would parents avoid G-Schools like a plague? Answer that and then maybe you don't have to worry about getting beaten on the sports floor.

 

[DrH. Lecter]

NO! I ran a public program in KHSAA and we had a couple private schools in our league. They only raised the bar and it was a tough league public/private lex catholic was always beatable. A lot of coaches in our school bitched about the private schools but in soccer we went out and kicked butt!

Soccer? We are talking about actual sports here.

 

[EliteBlue]

I haven’t lived in Kentucky since 1981 ( I was 5), so take this with a grain of salt. I looked at volleyball, softball and girls soccer. IMO, they should move to multiple divisions by school size.. I get keeping 1 single division in basketball based on tradition in a basketball crazy state, but what’s the reason for that in other sports? Why are there 6 divisions in football but only 1 in volleyball, softball, soccer, etc (I think)?

Agree with this.

Also on board with turning the girls State tournament into private vs public.

Could also do it in both men’s and women’s and then have the private vs public champs play each other for an “overall division”….

Or… you go class system like football but make basketball a 4 class system. So you have a 1A state champ, 2A, 3A, 4A. And then you have the “overall tournament” play in a state Final 4. (Allows multiple state champs while still keeping the tradition of crowing the overall champ)

 

[DrH. Lecter]

I see this on a lesser level in youth sports. We always coach youth basketball and flag football and you'll get just random kids assigned to you but maybe one buddy request fulfilled but then there's always a team in the league that stacks their team and the leagues just allow it and they always win. That's because every other team has a few kids who are good and a chunk of who are just learning or what not compared to some douche that stacks a travel team. What does anyone gain from that, ya know?

I can't explain why private schools haven't dominated boys basketball but there's just such a huge advantage for being able to ignore district lines and get a kid free/discounted private school compared to "I have to field a competitive team in this specific zoned area."

If we had school choice, this would help even things out yet the state shot that down.

Private schools do not dominate in basketball because they do not get the best athletes for that sport. Certainly it is easier by getting 1 outstanding player to make an impact (see Evangel Christian 24 vs 25). St. X this year. X has made it a concerted effort to recruit players and pay the full boat. They got tired of losing to Trinity...who does NOT pay full tuition and what they do is a blind merit based application.
My feelings on the X basketball recruits. Good for them. Better for them and their future families that they go to X than it is to get stuck in their s-hole G-school in their neighborhood. THAT is much more important than wins and losses.

 

[trueblujr2]

Absolutely, 1,000,000 % yes

Public schools and private schools are on 2 completely different playing fields in many different ways

You could have the public school champ play the private school champ.


Or just put all the private schools in one district. That is 100 percent what Jefferson Co needs to do


Only people in private schools will vote no, for the most part

in terms of football alone, I wouldn't mind seeing the private schools doing some sort of regional league of their own with Trinity and X joining some Lexington teams, Northern KY/Cincy area teams, Indianapolis, Nashville possibly as well. Trinity already plays teams from those areas, wouldn't be a stretch for them all to form their own division of sorts and have their own Championship.

 

[MegaBlue05]

Sacred Heart's tuition is $17K a year. How many of these basketball players come from families who are paying that type of money? Or is this like what Lex Cath used to do where the star players get their tuition paid for by someone else or they get such a financial break that it's peanuts?

I’m from a surrounding county of Lexington. Lex Cath used to come pilfer our best athletes under the guise of scholarships. This was 30 years ago so I don’t know if much has changed.

I’m all for separating private schools from most sports because they have a competitive advantage in being able to recruit and students not having to live in a certain area to attend the school.

I agree with you about keeping boys’ basketball winner take all, no classes.

 

[fatguy87]

No

 

[saxonburgcat]

If they play and recruit by the same rules it wouldn't matter.

Fairness and equality in sports is an illusion as it is in the world of business and politics and everywhere else. When my kids said to me, "That's not fair!" I replied, "Life is not fair. Get used to it."

About all we can do is make it more fair than it is.

 

[saxonburgcat]

I’m from a surrounding county of Lexington. Lex Cath used to come pilfer our best athletes under the guise of scholarships. This was 30 years ago so I don’t know if much has changed.

I’m all for separating private schools from most sports because they have a competitive advantage in being able to recruit and students not having to live in a certain area to attend the school.

I agree with you about keeping boys’ basketball winner take all, no classes.

UNC and Bubba Cunningham completely agree with how you ended your post..."no classes."

 

[HeismaNole]

I’m from a surrounding county of Lexington. Lex Cath used to come pilfer our best athletes under the guise of scholarships. This was 30 years ago so I don’t know if much has changed.

I’m all for separating private schools from most sports because they have a competitive advantage in being able to recruit and students not having to live in a certain area to attend the school.

I agree with you about keeping boys’ basketball winner take all, no classes.

Catholic was notorious for it. Scott County was notorious for it from the public side. Hey, whatdya know? This good basketball player's parent just got a job at Toyota (Euton, Jackson, and maybe even Rick Jones). Haha

Catholic got Nathan Popp, Scott Hundley, Vee Sanford, Will Graham, I'm sure all of their major talent from the 90s and 2000s came from another school as opposed to the feeder system.

 

[DrH. Lecter]

in terms of football alone, I wouldn't mind seeing the private schools doing some sort of regional league of their own with Trinity and X joining some Lexington teams, Northern KY/Cincy area teams, Indianapolis, Nashville possibly as well. Trinity already plays teams from those areas, wouldn't be a stretch for them all to form their own division of sorts and have their own Championship.

As a Trinity alumnus, I can say that it does Trinity no real good to play any Pub in KY with a few exceptions. They should be pulled into an OPEN classification that a school can opt into or out of depending on what they have in their system at the time.

Boyle County had a really good team last year and it would have been a year where they should have played up. Male is always good and should be in it. My partial list of the open class would be:

Trinity
X
Male
Fred Douglass
Scott Cty
Cooper
Ryle
BG


Even with this, it is better for Trinity FB and KY FB in general to schedule the Cinci teams, Indy teams and Nashville teams. The level of competition. I'll never forget watching Trinity play Ft. Thomas Highlands when whatshisface was their QB. He'd signed with UK and was all the rage. Trinity killed them and he ran for his life the whole game. I knew then that he was not an SEC QB. In fact, it is nearly impossible NEARLY, for the level of competition here to the level to get them ready for the SEC. Maybe if we have an open class and the ability to play the regional schedule Trinity plays...then maybe we can develop some real KY talent.

 

[TucsonCat]

Football I understand. Maybe volleyball or soccer. Because of the quantity of players and quantity available to play a team sport. Based on school size.

But everything else, just keep it all together. Especially things like swimming, diving, tennis, track, wrestling, golf Those are all individual sports. And at the end of the day they add up points and give a team award. You can tell yourself your collection was best of public schools if you need to.

 

[runt#69]

In NY, the private and prep schools are definitely recruiting and offering some form of financial aid to poach the areas best athletes. I would think a place like Sacred Heart is doing something similar.

I feel like for my state, it doesn't matter. The private schools seem to have the edge, but if some of the local high schools actually put the effort in, they do well.. if they don't care about sports, then they don't.

And it's not like the public schools don't have some advantages also. Free school and trying to build a basketball team, is a heck of a lot easier than if you're charging some form of tuition (even if at times it gets covered). Private schools also have some form of standards. Remember the infamous Cinci/Xavier fight back in like 2010? Mark Lyons was apart of that and he went to Schenectady Highschool near me.. basically a shitty inner city school. He would not have lasted in private school.

Can't believe I had almost forgotten about that.

 

[DrH. Lecter]

Football I understand. Maybe volleyball or soccer. Because of the quantity of players and quantity available to play a team sport. Based on school size.

But everything else, just keep it all together. Especially things like swimming, diving, tennis, track, wrestling, golf Those are all individual sports. And at the end of the day they add up points and give a team award. You can tell yourself your collection was best of public schools if you need to.

X has a pool on campus. Big advantage. Plus a bunch of kids that are members at a country club. They have the market cornered for the "club" sports.

 

[BluestBlood]

No and my take solely is for basketball during this argument but it hurts beyond the sweet 16 and just the champion.
Look at DCA now, importing players in both boys and girls and eliminating rural home grown talent amongst the whole region.
It affects all the schools in their own regions

 

[Wildcats1st]

Soccer? We are talking about actual sports here.

Yeah well youth soccer is the biggest sport in America and high school soccer draws more fans than baseball. I always laugh at anyone to say soccer isn’t a sport. Generally they are people who can’t run continuously for 90 min having to sprint at times. It is the most popular sport in the world AND it’s far more dangerous than any sport other than hockey. I don’t know anyone who played at a high level I mean like on a top 10 high school program on up who hasn’t had serious injury at some point or lingering injuried that cause problem later in life . The risk factor is so high, you have to have skills, speed, endurance and most of all keeping score qualifies it as a sport. Lol

 

[jeffky]

I know public schools recruit now too but private schools have so much more advantage monetarily than a public institution . If you're private ,than you should stay private ,and be in a league of your own.

 

[nptb]

As a Trinity alumnus, I can say that it does Trinity no real good to play any Pub in KY with a few exceptions. They should be pulled into an OPEN classification that a school can opt into or out of depending on what they have in their system at the time.

Boyle County had a really good team last year and it would have been a year where they should have played up. Male is always good and should be in it. My partial list of the open class would be:

Trinity
X
Male
Fred Douglass
Scott Cty
Cooper
Ryle
BG


Even with this, it is better for Trinity FB and KY FB in general to schedule the Cinci teams, Indy teams and Nashville teams. The level of competition. I'll never forget watching Trinity play Ft. Thomas Highlands when whatshisface was their QB. He'd signed with UK and was all the rage. Trinity killed them and he ran for his life the whole game. I knew then that he was not an SEC QB. In fact, it is nearly impossible NEARLY, for the level of competition here to the level to get them ready for the SEC. Maybe if we have an open class and the ability to play the regional schedule Trinity plays...then maybe we can develop some real KY talent.

A whole lot of wrong with this post. Jared Lorenzen and Gino Guidugli are the two best Highlands quarterbacks and they both were good enough to excel in any conference. Neither of them lost to Louisville Trinity. The only quarterback you could be talking about is Patrick Towels. He didn't lose Trinity either.

 

[jpbky2]

It is isn't just private schools, in Lexington, with magnet programs, you can recruit just as easy as a private school. The smaller counties are at a disadvantage. The next point is that kids still want to play those teams. When I was playing, the city schools wouldn't play Lexington Catholic. Those players were our friends, and we wanted to play them, just like they wanted to play us. The parents worry more about the disparity than the kids. Friday night and seeing Trinity show up in their chartered busses to your school and you just can't beat it. You want to compete against the best.

 

[Demondog]

Absolutely, 1,000,000 % yes

Public schools and private schools are on 2 completely different playing fields in many different ways

You could have the public school champ play the private school champ.


Or just put all the private schools in one district. That is 100 percent what Jefferson Co needs to do


Only people in private schools will vote no, for the most part

Or... how about developing and working with these kids at an earlier age? I believe the private schools do this and this is a big part of their success.

 

[cbrwalt]

Soccer? We are talking about actual sports here.

Soccer is the most popular sport in the world, but sure

 

[michaeluk26]

Absolutely. I've played football against Lex Cath, first team to have field turf in Kentucky. It was like playing on a pillow but it was firm and you can run and jump faster. Played St.X, Trinity, is Male public or private? We played them twice in Kentucky footballs field house. They had Michael Bush then. Nevermind they are public. Covington Catholic. Either way it's like playing a damn small college. We were 3A my freshman year in a district with Whitley, Bell County, North and South Laurel. I'm the playoffs we were matched up with Eastern Kentucky schools, Belfry, Pike County Central, Sheldon Clark who knocked us out in the regional title game. Mind you there's only 4 classes when I played 98-2001. We beat Bell county in a district they'd won 11 years in a row. We had to switch locker rooms for visitors cause the punks broke everything and pissed on the floors. The cheerleaders were trying to fight us

My sophomore and junior year we switched districts to East Jessamine, Marion, Adair, Lincoln county and Pulaski county. We won both districts titles but lost to Bullit East in the second round. My junior year we beat Louisville Central, Waggner and lost to Bourbon County in regionals.

Senior year they moved us to 4A when we were the smallest enrollment in that class and our sister school Pulaski had about 100 more students. District was North and South Laurel, GRC, Clay county and Whitley county. We won district for fourth year in a row and got matched with all the Lexington schools. We beat Dunbar and lost to Henry Clay. I was literally running after the Quarterback threw it right to me. My ACL popped from hyper extending my knee and I started limping trying to run and two lineman hit me and my knee had no stability and bent in and down and they landed on me with my knee like that and it popped again. Being honest I'd taken multiple pain killers before that game and smoked a blunt. It hurt for about 10 seconds and went away. I played 10 more plays but I couldn't back peddle or plant so I went to the trainers and they said you've gotten two torn ligaments. I was like how long will I be out. 9 months minimum. I don't think I'd ever cried that hard in my life up to that point. I threw my helmet at the golf cart. Football was over, the year I was going to break the scoring record in basketball was over. I watched my backup get torched the whole second half. Had to ride home on a bus. The trainers didn't tell the coaches I'd torn ligaments. Just I messed up my knee. I just went home. My girlfriend at the time stayed the night. I woke up to the most good awful pain ever. My knee was so swollen and I'd I bent it I'd fall. Went to the hospital, MRI showed both torn. Worst time of my life up until that point.


My

 

[CincinnatiWildcat]

I see this on a lesser level in youth sports. We always coach youth basketball and flag football and you'll get just random kids assigned to you but maybe one buddy request fulfilled but then there's always a team in the league that stacks their team and the leagues just allow it and they always win. That's because every other team has a few kids who are good and a chunk of who are just learning or what not compared to some douche that stacks a travel team. What does anyone gain from that, ya know?

I can't explain why private schools haven't dominated boys basketball but there's just such a huge advantage for being able to ignore district lines and get a kid free/discounted private school compared to "I have to field a competitive team in this specific zoned area."

If we had school choice, this would help even things out yet the state shot that down.

Regarding specifically the first paragraph I think you can make a decent argument that this is the best system to use. Kids who already know what they are doing get a coach who takes it more seriously and those kids are not slowed down by the newcomers. Likewise the newer kids all have a coach that is coaching other newer kids and trying to get them to love the game. Then during the season these kids realize via the stacked team the amount of effort and practice they will need to put in to become very good at these skills. Gives room for growth but also some real life lessons.

 

[DrH. Lecter]

A whole lot of wrong with this post. Jared Lorenzen and Gino Guidugli are the two best Highlands quarterbacks and they both were good enough to excel in any conference. Neither of them lost to Louisville Trinity. The only quarterback you could be talking about is Patrick Towels. He didn't lose Trinity either.

Reading helps: nearly impossible NEARLY, for the level of competition here to the level to get them ready for the SEC

He did. I watched the game. I actually sat on the Ft. T Highlands side because ours was full. They still brought a nice crowd. At Trinity. 2011. In fairness that Trinity team destroyed everyone they played and was National Champ that year. Quite a nice coaching staff. Collinsworth, maybe the hefty lefty...been 12 or 13 years.

JLO meets the statements parameters. As does Tim Couch.

Did Geno play in the SEC? No.

 

[DrH. Lecter]

Soccer is the most popular sport in the world, but sure

I couldn't give a damn what the rest of the world thinks is a sport. In my country we love REAL Football, basketball and baseball. The most populated country on the planet, India, loves Cricket. SO What? By your metrics we should love Cricket simply because a couple billion people in India find it the best. Dumb measurement.

 

[DrH. Lecter]

Or... how about developing and working with these kids at an earlier age? I believe the private schools do this and this is a big part of their success.

This is a big part of the reason. We have the CSAA sports programs from 1st grade on. The kids play tackle football from 3-4th grade on. Unless you play in a couple of the leagues in Louisville you do not play at your school. Too many moms running their kids off from FB and sending them to other sports. Lacross has picked up a lot of following because it is physical enough with equipment and contact to make dad happy and its not soccer, but Mom accepts it because it isn't football. Compromise sport.

There is no better sport for building character than football. No sissies allowed.

There are soccer players playing football. They are the kickers....

 

[DrH. Lecter]

Absolutely. I've played football against Lex Cath, first team to have field turf in Kentucky. It was like playing on a pillow but it was firm and you can run and jump faster. Played St.X, Trinity, is Male public or private? We played them twice in Kentucky footballs field house. They had Michael Bush then. Nevermind they are public. Covington Catholic. Either way it's like playing a damn small college. We were 3A my freshman year in a district with Whitley, Bell County, North and South Laurel. I'm the playoffs we were matched up with Eastern Kentucky schools, Belfry, Pike County Central, Sheldon Clark who knocked us out in the regional title game. Mind you there's only 4 classes when I played 98-2001. We beat Bell county in a district they'd won 11 years in a row. We had to switch locker rooms for visitors cause the punks broke everything and pissed on the floors. The cheerleaders were trying to fight us

My sophomore and junior year we switched districts to East Jessamine, Marion, Adair, Lincoln county and Pulaski county. We won both districts titles but lost to Bullit East in the second round. My junior year we beat Louisville Central, Waggner and lost to Bourbon County in regionals.

Senior year they moved us to 4A when we were the smallest enrollment in that class and our sister school Pulaski had about 100 more students. District was North and South Laurel, GRC, Clay county and Whitley county. We won district for fourth year in a row and got matched with all the Lexington schools. We beat Dunbar and lost to Henry Clay. I was literally running after the Quarterback threw it right to me. My ACL popped from hyper extending my knee and I started limping trying to run and two lineman hit me and my knee had no stability and bent in and down and they landed on me with my knee like that and it popped again. Being honest I'd taken multiple pain killers before that game and smoked a blunt. It hurt for about 10 seconds and went away. I played 10 more plays but I couldn't back peddle or plant so I went to the trainers and they said you've gotten two torn ligaments. I was like how long will I be out. 9 months minimum. I don't think I'd ever cried that hard in my life up to that point. I threw my helmet at the golf cart. Football was over, the year I was going to break the scoring record in basketball was over. I watched my backup get torched the whole second half. Had to ride home on a bus. The trainers didn't tell the coaches I'd torn ligaments. Just I messed up my knee. I just went home. My girlfriend at the time stayed the night. I woke up to the most good awful pain ever. My knee was so swollen and I'd I bent it I'd fall. Went to the hospital, MRI showed both torn. Worst time of my life up until that point.


My

That Male team with Michael Bush was fantastic. There is a youtube video of possibly the best HS game ever played. Michael Bush vs. Brian Brohm. It was a ping-pong match. MB was a hell of a QB, though that was not his actual skill position. He was just a man among boys. If you get a chance to watch the 2nd half you should. WILD.