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Kentucky vs Duke

JonathanW

All-American
Jan 3, 2003
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This will be our 3rd game, our first big game. So how will we compare, position by position.

It's looking like Duke will go with Proctor, Foster, Knueppel, Flagg, and either Maluach or Brown. If Maluach that is 3 FR, but either way I expect the other to play quite a bit too. Also likely coming off the bench (more than 5min) will be Gillis & James.
UK is looking like it may be Butler, Oweh, Robinson, Carr & Williams, with a deeper rotation, possibly everyone except Noah and Perry playing >5min. Although wouldn't shock me if Chandler was also limited.

PG: Proctor vs Butler. Proctor has the 4" size advantage, but is more a combo-guard than PG. Butler is more a PG, although oddly enough has never been a big assist guy. But Butler is a defensive menace. Proctor is the better shooter though, but not by a lot (5% better from 3). Duke doesn't really have a backup PG, so Foster will likely slide over (as another combo-guard) when Proctor is out, and is also a big guard (6'5). Kriisa will spell Butler, and he is the anti-Butler, a big assist guy, and a good 3pt shooter (42%, but just 1% better than Foster). I expect the difference here to be TOs, and the difficulty Butler makes it for Duke to start their offense.

SG: Foster vs Oweh. Foster has a little more height (1"), Oweh more beef (15lb). Foster more of an offense guard, while Oweh is known for his defense. Both shoot it from deep well, but Foster is better (41% vs 38%). Oweh because of his strength is better at getting to the rim and finishing. Duke may have James come off the bench here, a good scorer and shooter (38% from 3). While UK will come in with the best shooter of either team, Brea, and his 50% from 3.

SF: Knueppel vs Robinson. In today's game SF and SG are often interchangeable. FR vs SR. Knueppel is a shooter and scorer, but does other things well too. While Robinson is a scorer who can shoot it, but I don't think as well as Knueppel. Gillis will back up for Duke, an experienced bigger body, who can defend and shoot (47% from 3). While UK will backup with a FR (Chandler), and athlete with a decent all-around game.

PF: Flagg vs Carr. This is where Duke is supposed to have the big advantage, but I say not so fast. Advantage, yes. Big one, no. Carr has the size to compete with Flagg. But while Carr is not a slow lumbering guy, Flagg will be able to get around him, so Carr may have to give Flagg the 3pt shots. Carr is the better 3pt shooter, making 37% last year. Flagg's biggest advantage may be getting out on breaks, and offensive rebounds flying in from the perimeter. Almonor will backup Carr, but gives up a couple inches, and is heavier, so may be slower at defending Flagg than Carr. But on the other end, if Flagg leaves him open, he may be an even better shooter than Carr (39% from 3).

C: Maluach vs Williams. Brown will play a lot, here and backing up Flagg. Two 7-footers who aren't stick figures, one a FR, the other a SR. I'm simply going with the experienced guy here. But both will have their moments. Brown is an interesting backup, making 70% of his shots, so you know he must stay near the rim. UK counters with an even more physical guy in Garrison.

On a 10 point scale:
PG: Duke 6.5, UK 7 (edge on pressure defense)
SG: Duke 6.5, UK 7
SF: Duke 6.5, UK 6.5 (UK drops here due to backup)
PF: Duke 8, UK 7 (if you want to give Duke 8.5, I won't argue that)
C: Duke 6.5, UK 6.5
Total: Duke 34, UK 34
 
Duke looked good the other night. It's so hard to tell. Our opponent was D2, but a very good D2 school. Theirs was a P5 D1 program, but maybe one of the worst P5 programs, as they only won 14 games last year. Every year, there's going to be soem D2 programs that are better than D1 programs. I don't think the gap is THAT big between Kentucky Wesleyan and ASU.

I keep coming back to the fact that Scheyer is just an OK coach as of now, and this Duke team is largely new.. both in college experience, and experience as a team. It's Proctor and Gillis as meaningful players that have college experience. Caleb Foster is a sophomore, and maybe you can add Sion, but thats starting to get into the bench.

I just have a feeling Pope will have his guys more prepared, because they are all older with more experience.

But I still content, I don't want to face this Duke team when they get going. They could have 3-4 1st round draft picks, and we *might* just have 1 or 2.
 
I'd rather beat Duke in March vs. November should they face off.
Of course I'd prefer UK beat them twice. But I'm not putting much weight win or lose on a November game. You would expect both teams to be better in March.
 
My hope is that Butler and Oweh disrupt Duke's guards and really make it hard for the offense to find a rhythm.

I know everyone's going to say "It's November, we want to win in March," but MAN it would be nice to take this one in the midst of all the Flagg hype.
 
My hope is that Butler and Oweh disrupt Duke's guards and really make it hard for the offense to find a rhythm.

I know everyone's going to say "It's November, we want to win in March," but MAN it would be nice to take this one in the midst of all the Flagg hype.

Chances are, we will never see them again this season, after we play them in a few weeks. I'm much more concerned about beating them now and securing a HUGE win for Pope, early in his career. After they throttled ASU, if UK beats them, it's gonna make waves.
 
Very good analysis from prior posters and I agree with much of it. My mindset has flipped a bit because of pope. We 'use' to be in 3 pt deficits much of the time. Now we should be on top in this category most games. If we are +5 in 3s versus Duke we'll be in the game. Anything higher and I think we'll be building a lead. If we are outshooting them they'll start keeping an eye on preventing 3s and that should open up more cutting and inside easy opportunities. Then they'll start trying to catch up and their freshmen will unravel from the game plan. Duke does have some excellent shooters so I'll be anxious to see how we defend that. Cal was shit at that, so I'm anxious to see how our new coaches deal with that.
 
Chances are, we will never see them again this season, after we play them in a few weeks. I'm much more concerned about beating them now and securing a HUGE win for Pope, early in his career. After they throttled ASU, if UK beats them, it's gonna make waves.
Yeah, if Pope beats duke it will turn some heads and recruits will surly take notice. It’s not a make or break game, but it very much will get the national media momentum going for the new era of UK.

I’m over the wait for March mantra, lets get to balling day one.
 
We will know by the end of the game for sure. I think we should be able to compete with just about anyone this year. Does not mean we always win but early year game we have better depth and are the older team. If we can put it all together we have the early advantage as far as that goes. They might have some big name guys and maybe a little more athletic (not sure on this just yet).
 
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Would be nice to take some of that shine off of Duke's rebuilt program early in the season.

They have a ton of talent, but it takes a special kind of coach to get them to buy in and work together.

Good little read. Thanks for posting it. ✌️
 
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Kentucky is literally 12 deep.
We will wear Duke down and ultimately win.
Too much talent, too much experience too much depth:



The Vietnam yrs are when I was born and raised In Ky (1966-1976).
 
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For any of the Duke lurkers on here… how would you rate your team and individual players defensively? Be honest.
 
I believe Brown. Gillis, Flagg, Foster and James will be very dependable defensively and expect a top 10 KenPom defense. Maluach is a little raw but expect him to develop well as the year goes on. I believe this team as a whole will value defense more than any Duke team in recent memory.
 
Unless our weak side defense gets better under the basket, I think we'll get killed there. IMO the equalizer will be not guarding the three. We are a legitimate threat from deep.
 
Would be nice to take some of that shine off of Duke's rebuilt program early in the season.

They have a ton of talent, but it takes a special kind of coach to get them to buy in and work together.

Good little read. Thanks for posting it. ✌️
I'd rather not read about them, I just have faith that Pope will have them ready. You are a lot braver than me.
 
I believe Brown. Gillis, Flagg, Foster and James will be very dependable defensively and expect a top 10 KenPom defense. Maluach is a little raw but expect him to develop well as the year goes on. I believe this team as a whole will value defense more than any Duke team in recent memory.
“Dependable” and “top 10 defensive “ don’t go together.
 
I would venture to say every player on both teams are going to fight as hard or harder than they ever have before. Gonna be 18-20 wore the hell out kids walking off that floor.
 
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I don't care what pundits are writing/saying about Alabama, UConn, and Kansas. Duke is the team to beat. They will have the best player in the nation, and he'll be accompanied by multiple other future NBA players, as well as three or four really solid portal players.

Our experience won't really negate them, because they have portal veterans as well.

I'm not sure why/how that's even a possible suggestion as an advantage for us when we truly look at their depth.
 
I don't care what pundits are writing/saying about Alabama, UConn, and Kansas. Duke is the team to beat. They will have the best player in the nation, and he'll be accompanied by multiple other future NBA players, as well as three or four really solid portal players.

Our experience won't really negate them, because they have portal veterans as well.

I'm not sure why/how that's even a possible suggestion as an advantage for us when we truly look at their depth.

I really don't see how Flagg "is the best player in the nation"!
Exhibit A: he was "just another guy" at the McD practices and game, didn't really stand out from the rest of them
Exhibit B: vs a BAD Arizona St team he makes 3 of 9 shots, 9 points 6 boards. Sure that's decent, but not "dominating".
Will he have games that he dominates, I have no doubt he will.
Will he also have games where it seems he didn't show up, I would be surprised if he doesn't have a few of those too.
I think he will have a season like Brandon Miller, like Jabari Smith, like Chet Holmgren. So very good. But not unbeatable.

Duke only returns 2 players (who will play any), we "return" 1 (not to UK, but to the head coach); those 3 schools you listed all return more than that. Dickinson can be as dominating as Flagg may be. So can Sears. And that UConn forward is pretty good too.
And they all added more as good or better portal players than Duke. Duke added 3 portal vets, but it's quite possible none of them start.
What Duke did more than everyone else is add 5* recruits. But...what we have seen the past few years, in part because of NIL, in part because of the extra Covid year, is that having 4th & 5th year seniors who've played key roles (not scrubs) are more often than not going to beat unexperienced FR who may have more "Upside" down-the-road, but "right now" aren't there yet. Wasn't that one of our big complaints with Cal!

But I went position by position, and we look pretty equal to Duke!
Proctor, Foster, Knueppel, James, Gillis VS Butler, Kriisa, Oweh, Robinson, Brea, Chandler
I see no advantage there for Duke, if anything, I see a slight advantage to UK.

Flagg, Maluach, Brown, (other FR big) VS Carr, Williams, Garrison, Almonor
I do see a slight advantage (Flagg) here. Is it enough to offset the UK advantage on the perimeter, maybe, but not definitely.
 
I don't care what pundits are writing/saying about Alabama, UConn, and Kansas. Duke is the team to beat. They will have the best player in the nation, and he'll be accompanied by multiple other future NBA players, as well as three or four really solid portal players.

Our experience won't really negate them, because they have portal veterans as well.

I'm not sure why/how that's even a possible suggestion as an advantage for us when we truly look at their depth.
Bama is the only team to me with an argument. Bama is loaded, like they ar legit 12 deep. Duke beating Kentucky won’t be any indictment on pope or this team unless they get beat by 40. Duke is just loaded and has Athleticism and enough shooting.
 
I really don't see how Flagg "is the best player in the nation"!
Exhibit A: he was "just another guy" at the McD practices and game, didn't really stand out from the rest of them
Exhibit B: vs a BAD Arizona St team he makes 3 of 9 shots, 9 points 6 boards. Sure that's decent, but not "dominating".
Will he have games that he dominates, I have no doubt he will.
Will he also have games where it seems he didn't show up, I would be surprised if he doesn't have a few of those too.
I think he will have a season like Brandon Miller, like Jabari Smith, like Chet Holmgren. So very good. But not unbeatable.

Duke only returns 2 players (who will play any), we "return" 1 (not to UK, but to the head coach); those 3 schools you listed all return more than that. Dickinson can be as dominating as Flagg may be. So can Sears. And that UConn forward is pretty good too.
And they all added more as good or better portal players than Duke. Duke added 3 portal vets, but it's quite possible none of them start.
What Duke did more than everyone else is add 5* recruits. But...what we have seen the past few years, in part because of NIL, in part because of the extra Covid year, is that having 4th & 5th year seniors who've played key roles (not scrubs) are more often than not going to beat unexperienced FR who may have more "Upside" down-the-road, but "right now" aren't there yet. Wasn't that one of our big complaints with Cal!

But I went position by position, and we look pretty equal to Duke!
Proctor, Foster, Knueppel, James, Gillis VS Butler, Kriisa, Oweh, Robinson, Brea, Chandler
I see no advantage there for Duke, if anything, I see a slight advantage to UK.

Flagg, Maluach, Brown, (other FR big) VS Carr, Williams, Garrison, Almonor
I do see a slight advantage (Flagg) here. Is it enough to offset the UK advantage on the perimeter, maybe, but not definitely.
One game isn't much of a sample size for Flagg, but I think most of your post was a solid response. To answer your question regarding Flagg, I think he's projected #1 for a reason, and I'm not buying the "NBA drafts on potential" argument here. The kid can play and he can play right now. He's dominated every level of competition he's faced. I think he dominates this season as well.
 
I really don't see how Flagg "is the best player in the nation"!
Exhibit A: he was "just another guy" at the McD practices and game, didn't really stand out from the rest of them
Exhibit B: vs a BAD Arizona St team he makes 3 of 9 shots, 9 points 6 boards. Sure that's decent, but not "dominating".
Will he have games that he dominates, I have no doubt he will.
Will he also have games where it seems he didn't show up, I would be surprised if he doesn't have a few of those too.
I think he will have a season like Brandon Miller, like Jabari Smith, like Chet Holmgren. So very good. But not unbeatable.

Duke only returns 2 players (who will play any), we "return" 1 (not to UK, but to the head coach); those 3 schools you listed all return more than that. Dickinson can be as dominating as Flagg may be. So can Sears. And that UConn forward is pretty good too.
And they all added more as good or better portal players than Duke. Duke added 3 portal vets, but it's quite possible none of them start.
What Duke did more than everyone else is add 5* recruits. But...what we have seen the past few years, in part because of NIL, in part because of the extra Covid year, is that having 4th & 5th year seniors who've played key roles (not scrubs) are more often than not going to beat unexperienced FR who may have more "Upside" down-the-road, but "right now" aren't there yet. Wasn't that one of our big complaints with Cal!

But I went position by position, and we look pretty equal to Duke!
Proctor, Foster, Knueppel, James, Gillis VS Butler, Kriisa, Oweh, Robinson, Brea, Chandler
I see no advantage there for Duke, if anything, I see a slight advantage to UK.

Flagg, Maluach, Brown, (other FR big) VS Carr, Williams, Garrison, Almonor
I do see a slight advantage (Flagg) here. Is it enough to offset the UK advantage on the perimeter, maybe, but not definitely.
Flagg also had 3 assists, 3 steals, and 0.5 blocks and did so in 19 minutes because they were up so much. Hi PER from that game is quite good…19 points, 12 rebounds, 6 assists, and 6 steals and a block. Pretty good for a 17 year old in his second collegiate outing on a team with a supporting cast where he isn’t asked to do everything.
 
Duke looked good the other night. It's so hard to tell. Our opponent was D2, but a very good D2 school. Theirs was a P5 D1 program, but maybe one of the worst P5 programs, as they only won 14 games last year. Every year, there's going to be soem D2 programs that are better than D1 programs. I don't think the gap is THAT big between Kentucky Wesleyan and ASU.

I keep coming back to the fact that Scheyer is just an OK coach as of now, and this Duke team is largely new.. both in college experience, and experience as a team. It's Proctor and Gillis as meaningful players that have college experience. Caleb Foster is a sophomore, and maybe you can add Sion, but thats starting to get into the bench.

I just have a feeling Pope will have his guys more prepared, because they are all older with more experience.

But I still content, I don't want to face this Duke team when they get going. They could have 3-4 1st round draft picks, and we *might* just have 1 or 2.
That last little paragraph there
Don’t seem to mean much
 
Flagg also had 3 assists, 3 steals, and 0.5 blocks and did so in 19 minutes because they were up so much. Hi PER from that game is quite good…19 points, 12 rebounds, 6 assists, and 6 steals and a block. Pretty good for a 17 year old in his second collegiate outing on a team with a supporting cast where he isn’t asked to do everything.
0.5 blocks
Is that like a 1/2 sack in football. Wtf
 
I like our experience, shooters, and passing ability that I’m seeing. We have men out there, and hungry ones at that.

UK—-93
Puke—79

Don’t understand peoples fear of Puke.
 
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