Just for fun on a slow day -- No overall judgment intended. 2015-2023 player comparisons

[MdWIldcat55]

Kentucky may never see a team with the quality depth of 2014-2015. So, just for fun I thought it'd be an interesting comparison on the depth of the two teams.

Let me state emphatically I am in no way saying this year's team is as good as 2015. So there is no need for the first response to be: You are crazy! This team is not as good as 2015! Yeah, I just said that.

It is just a way to look at 22-23 depth through a player by player comparison with the team that set the standard. It's an incomplete comparison at best because we don't know how some of the 22-23 players will perform. But we've seen at least a glimpse.

1. So. PG Andrew Harrison -- Fr. PG Cason Wallace. I know Wallace may not start, but a more apt comparison with AH.
2. So. 2G Aaron Harrison -- Sr. 2g CJ Fredrick. Proven clutch shooter v. proven shooter from everywhere - when healthy. Aaron's clutch shooting run was legendary.
3. Fr. Pg Tyler Ulis -- Sr. PG Sahvir Wheeler. Two dynamos. Sophomore Ulis was unstoppable. But this is freshman Ulis compared to the SEC assist leader.

4. Fr. Devin Booker -- Jr. Antonio Reeves. We all think of what Booker BECAME in the NBA. As a freshman he was up and down.
5. Jr. Alex Poythress -- Fr. Chris Livingston. Alex getting injured was a huge blow. Please lord let the 22-23 Cats stay healthy.
6. Fr. Trey Lyles -- So. Daimion Collins. Different players. Lyles was a multi-dimensional scoring threat.
7. Jr. Willie Cauley-Stein -- Jr. Jacob Toppin. We know what Willie became. We're about to see what Toppin can be.
8. Fr. Karl A. Towns -- Sr. Oscar Tschiebwe. KAT or returning NPOY. Towns, for sure: The one true mega-talent on 2015, in terms of performance as a college player. But Oscar's numbers ain't bad...

9. So. Dakari Johnson -- So. Lance Ware. Dakari got lost on that team but was a force inside at times. Ware is a competent back-up.
10. So. Marcus Lee -- Fr. Ugonna Kingsley. Lee contributed at least some that year. UKO likely a practice player - but what potential.

11. So. Derek Willis -- Fr. Adou Thiero. Willis was not a contributor in 2015. AT looks ready to produce this year.

No way on paper 22-23 is as good as the team in 2015 when it was healthy -- the team that crushed Kansas, humiliated UCLA and so on.

Where is the biggest single player advantage for 2015? Towns, I suppose, even when balanced by NPOY Oscar.

What is the biggest single advantage for 2015? Defensive size and intensity.

Does 22-23 have an edge anywhere? If Reeves blows up I could see him being superior on the wing to a freshman Booker who was a defensive liability at times and disappeared sometimes.

Which PG tandem? AH and freshman Ulis or Wheeler and freshman Wallace?

 

[JwUKFan11]

We’ll never see another college team as good as that team. It’s really amazing to think about.

 

[MdWIldcat55]

We’ll never see another college team as good as that team. It’s really amazing to think about.

It was certainly the greatest defensive team ever and most physically intimidating team when fully healthy.

Offensively - only averaged 74 points a game, and only really had KAT as a go-to scorer (Booker became that in the NBA, but he was too young and not physically up to being a big-time player yet.) The Harrisons, Lyles, freshman Ulis could all score but weren't guys who could take over a game on offense like, say, Murray or Monk.

You had guys like WCS, Lee, Dakari, in the "platoon" mix who were not scoring threats.

 

[jmw23712]

In my very unprofessional opinion with some biases likely mixed in:

Andrew>Wallace purely because of experience. Wallace has more upside.
Aaron>Fredrick. At this point we have no clue what we have with CJ. Aaron single handedly won close games at the end.
Ulis<Wheeler. Sophomore Ulis was amazing. Freshman Ulis was solid but Wheeler has a lot of experience and continues to lead the SEC in assists. That has a lot of value.
Reeves>Booker. Freshman Booker was average overall. Reeves has potential to lead the team in scoring.
Poythress<Livingston. Livingston plays the way I always wanted Poythress to. They have similar builds but Livingston is much less timid.
Lyles>Collins. Collins is a freak athlete but Lyles was a swiss army knife. He did whatever the team needed him to do.
WCS<Toppin. Toppin is a better shooter and I expect more consistency WCS disappeared when it mattered most and I'll never forget that, So this is one of my biases. I'd rather have Toppin because I think he cares.
KAT=Oscar. At the college level, Oscar is likely better than KAT. That said KAT was a bigger scoring threat and was capable of taking over when he wanted. But Oscar's hustle and rebounding can't be overlooked.
Dakari>Ware. Dakari was solid in the post on offense. Ware isn't there yet.
Lee and Kingsley is too much of an unknown.
Willis<Adou. Thiero has massive upside. Willis was a decent college player as a Sr but still learning where he fit in as a Sophomore. Thiero somehow already looks comfortable.

 

[kyjeff1]

Don't know yet. We saw a full season for the 2015 team, but only have a glimpse of 22/23.

Honestly, Towns and Oscar are a weird comparison, because they're so different, but in terms of college performance, I'm taking Oscar.

Aaron H went on his run in the 2014 tournament, in 2015, he was a much quieter version of himself. If CJ stays healthy, he's a better shooter, he should have a bigger impact than Aaron did.

Andrew was really good in '15, but Cason is an NBA guy, he very well could be better, but we'll see.

Lyles was a very quiet player. He was great at that baseline 12 footer, but what else did he do? IMO, with Collins being a sophomore that can shoot and jump out of the gym, I would put my money on him. He will be a better rim protector for sure, but in the long run, he's going to make more noise than Lyles did.

Booker is a tough one. He was a great shooter throughout the season, then couldn't hit the broad side of a barn when it mattered most. Then, the second he stepped on an NBA court, he played out of his mind. I have no idea what his deal was, but I can see a world where Reeves could be more effective at UK. If he steps up in the NCAAT, like a veteran should, he should be > Booker, which is weird to say.

Livingston has the tools to be better than Poythress, especially since we lost Poy to injury.

I'll never take Wheeler over Ulis. Nope, Ulis all day long.

Bottom line is, this team has talent and size in spades. I know it's crazy, but this 22/23 team could be individually better than the '15 team at most spots, but I'll just go ahead and say it… .it comes down to coaching (always does). The coaches have to put the best players on the court and they have to fit together and click. The coaches also have to play the style that best fits the personnel that is on the floor. We have some damn good shooters, use them and open the floor and push the tempo.

I like the idea of this thread and I'll be interested to read what others have to say.

 

[STL_Cat]

Impossible comparisons to make right now

 

[kyjeff1]

In my very unprofessional opinion with some biases likely mixed in:

Andrew>Wallace purely because of experience. Wallace has more upside.
Aaron>Fredrick. At this point we have no clue what we have with CJ. Aaron single handedly won close games at the end.
Ulis<Wheeler. Sophomore Ulis was amazing. Freshman Ulis was solid but Wheeler has a lot of experience and continues to lead the SEC in assists. That has a lot of value.
Reeves>Booker. Freshman Booker was average overall. Reeves has potential to lead the team in scoring.
Poythress<Livingston. Livingston plays the way I always wanted Poythress to. They have similar builds but Livingston is much less timid.
Lyles>Collins. Collins is a freak athlete but Lyles was a swiss army knife. He did whatever the team needed him to do.
WCS<Toppin. Toppin is a better shooter and I expect more consistency WCS disappeared when it mattered most and I'll never forget that, So this is one of my biases. I'd rather have Toppin because I think he cares.
KAT=Oscar. At the college level, Oscar is likely better than KAT. That said KAT was a bigger scoring threat and was capable of taking over when he wanted. But Oscar's hustle and rebounding can't be overlooked.
Dakari>Ware. Dakari was solid in the post on offense. Ware isn't there yet.
Lee and Kingsley is too much of an unknown.
Willis<Adou. Thiero has massive upside. Willis was a decent college player as a Sr but still learning where he fit in as a Sophomore. Thiero somehow already looks comfortable.

Bolded sentence, are you thinking of Aaron's 2014 NCAAT run? He didn't hit crazy shots in the 2015 tournament.

 

[STL_Cat]

Bolded sentence, are you thinking of Aaron's 2014 NCAAT run? He didn't hit crazy shots in the 2015 tournament.

He did hit a huge shot down the stretch in the Notre Dame game in 2015, though

 

[ULisnotmyman]

Oh no.

 

[kyjeff1]

He did hit a huge shot down the stretch in the Notre Dame game in 2015, though

Definitely, but that won't seperate him from CJ in 22/23. CJ can hit that shot.

The shots Aaron hit in the 2014 NCAAT were incredibly clutch.

 

[HDAWG123455]

KAT was one of the best college freshman I have ever seen. That's with Cal basically handicapping him as well by forcing him to play exclusively on the low post instead of putting him in stretch situations as well.

 

[jmw23712]

Bolded sentence, are you thinking of Aaron's 2014 NCAAT run? He didn't hit crazy shots in the 2015 tournament.

Great point and I was thinking of 2014. I still give him the advantage just because CJ is such an unknown and Aaron had the clout and defensive attention from 2014.

 

[dlh331]

I am no Cal hater but IMO, the 2015 season was one of his lesser coaching jobs. I thought 2015 was one of the 5 best teams I ever saw through December, was the best team in the nation January through late February, and one of the 5 best teams in the nation at the end of the year. The digression was strictly on Cal due to his going away from the platoon (and Poy getting hurt was a killer). Ramping down the offense was crazy.

Easy to say but Pitino would have destroyed basketball with that team.

As for the topic, 2023 COULD be better (counting depth) at PG, SG, the wing, and even at center. Very excited about the season.

 

[Marleydogg]

I am no Cal hater but IMO, the 2015 season was one of his lesser coaching jobs. I thought 2015 was one of the 5 best teams I ever saw through December, was the best team in the nation January through late February, and one of the 5 best teams in the nation at the end of the year. The digression was strictly on Cal due to his going away from the platoon (and Poy getting hurt was a killer). Ramping down the offense was crazy.

Easy to say but Pitino would have destroyed basketball with that team.

As for the topic, 2023 COULD be better (counting depth) at PG, SG, the wing, and even at center. Very excited about the season.

Agreed, dlh. I don't get why most people on here balk at the idea of going back to a platoon if we have 10 good players.
We were destroying good teams using it early.

 

[Kybluedude]

It’s a good sign that the comparison is so close.

 

[Son_Of_Saul]

We’ll never see another college team as good as that team. It’s really amazing to think about.

And we lost to a team from Wisconsin on an off night, but we still lost. It's perhaps the second greatest tragic night in Kentucky history behind the 1992 loss to Duke.

 

[dlh331]

And we lost to a team from Wisconsin on an off night, but we still lost. It's perhaps the second greatest tragic night in Kentucky history behind the 1992 loss to Duke.

In fairness, it needs to be remembered about that team from Wisconsin:

1. Sagarin rated them as the 7th best team since 2005
2. They had the NPOY plus 2 other pros
3. They remain the best offense of the Pomeroy era
4. They had practiced all year with UK on their mind
5. UK was only a 4-5 point favorite IIRC

I was 14 when we lost to Texas Western, nothing has been worse….

 

[treyforuk]

And we lost to a team from Wisconsin on an off night, but we still lost. It's perhaps the second greatest tragic night in Kentucky history behind the 1992 loss to Duke.

84 was pretty shitty also. No excuse for that second half. Team was as good as 2015 in my book.

 

[Ripcord65]

We’ll never see another college team as good as that team. It’s really amazing to think about.

Certainly will never see another college team with that level of talent from the top of the roster to the end of the roster.

 

[BigKari]

Booker was a much better college player than some of you give him credit for. Put him on a normal Kentucky squad, like replace him for Monk, Murray, Herro, Maxey where stuff is being run for him. A 35 mpg starting SG. Averaged 10 points in 21.5 mpg. If he’s the focal point of the offense playing 35mpg he would’ve scored 18-19 per game. Don’t believe me, then you missed what the Phoenix Suns saw…

 

[Son_Of_Saul]

In fairness, it needs to be remembered about that team from Wisconsin:

1. Sagarin rated them as the 7th best team since 2005
2. They had the NPOY plus 2 other pros
3. They remain the best offense of the Pomeroy era
4. They had practiced all year with UK on their mind
5. UK was only a 4-5 point favorite IIRC

I was 14 when we lost to Texas Western, nothing has been worse….

I won't argue with you regarding what has been worse from your own perspective, but generally, losing after going 38-0, in the moment, is right there with losing to Texas Western. The media made the Texas Western loss more than what it was because of the racial dynamic. '92 and '15 were as bad as they get for "in the moment" emotional letdowns.

 

[chroix]

In my very unprofessional opinion with some biases likely mixed in:

Andrew>Wallace purely because of experience. Wallace has more upside.
Aaron>Fredrick. At this point we have no clue what we have with CJ. Aaron single handedly won close games at the end.
Ulis<Wheeler. Sophomore Ulis was amazing. Freshman Ulis was solid but Wheeler has a lot of experience and continues to lead the SEC in assists. That has a lot of value.
Reeves>Booker. Freshman Booker was average overall. Reeves has potential to lead the team in scoring.
Poythress<Livingston. Livingston plays the way I always wanted Poythress to. They have similar builds but Livingston is much less timid.
Lyles>Collins. Collins is a freak athlete but Lyles was a swiss army knife. He did whatever the team needed him to do.
WCS<Toppin. Toppin is a better shooter and I expect more consistency WCS disappeared when it mattered most and I'll never forget that, So this is one of my biases. I'd rather have Toppin because I think he cares.
KAT=Oscar. At the college level, Oscar is likely better than KAT. That said KAT was a bigger scoring threat and was capable of taking over when he wanted. But Oscar's hustle and rebounding can't be overlooked.
Dakari>Ware. Dakari was solid in the post on offense. Ware isn't there yet.
Lee and Kingsley is too much of an unknown.
Willis<Adou. Thiero has massive upside. Willis was a decent college player as a Sr but still learning where he fit in as a Sophomore. Thiero somehow already looks comfortable.

This is pretty close to what I think but I think OP should have compared 3. Lyles and Toppin and 4. WCS and Collins which gives the current team the advantage with the exception of the 4 spot for WCS.

 

[Fox2monk]

And we lost to a team from Wisconsin on an off night, but we still lost. It's perhaps the second greatest tragic night in Kentucky history behind the 1992 loss to Duke.

It’s my most painful loss because I was so young in 92.

 

[kyjeff1]

Booker was a much better college player than some of you give him credit for. Put him on a normal Kentucky squad, like replace him for Monk, Murray, Herro, Maxey where stuff is being run for him. A 35 mpg starting SG. Averaged 10 points in 21.5 mpg. If he’s the focal point of the offense playing 35mpg he would’ve scored 18-19 per game. Don’t believe me, then you missed what the Phoenix Suns saw…

He was great, but Cal was so in love with feeding the post that he really didn't utilize Booker the way he should have.

But also, Booker hit a wall sometime in February where he couldn't hit shots or score. He was a ghost in the NCAAT.

 

[kyjeff1]

I think you can platoon the 1 through 4 positions on this team, but you have to keep Oscar on the floor for 30-35 mpg against good teams.

Now, when we're playing cupcakes, or blowing someone out, platoon the 5 spot with Ware and eventually give Kingsley some run.

 

[Aike]

Should also compare their tournament experience. The core of the 2015 team was coming off of a run to the final game. Zilch for this edition.

Hope that doesn’t matter, but it does affect how I feel about the two groups.

 

[Aike]

I think you can platoon the 1 through 4 positions on this team, but you have to keep Oscar on the floor for 30-35 mpg against good teams.

Now, when we're playing cupcakes, or blowing someone out, platoon the 5 spot with Ware and eventually give Kingsley some run.

I think we could switch up for stretches and run Toppin at the 5. I don’t think we will, but I think it would work well.

Wallace/Fredrick/Reeves/Livingston/Toppin is what I’d like to see, but you could obviously include Wheeler instead, especially since this would be a run and gun unit.

Could also run Collins at the 5, maybe, but I’m not as crazy about that idea. I like Collins more as a weak-side shot blocker with Oscar’s muscle beside him.

 

[kyjeff1]

I think we could switch up for stretches and run Toppin at the 5. I don’t think we will, but I think it would work well.

Wallace/Fredrick/Reeves/Livingston/Toppin is what I’d like to see, but you could obviously include Wheeler instead, especially since this would be a run and gun unit.

Could also run Collins at the 5, maybe, but I’m not as crazy about that idea. I like Collins more as a weak-side shot blocker with Oscar’s muscle beside him.

Oh yeah, we have plenty if guys to plug in at the 5. This front court is stacked.

But do you agree Cal could essentially platoon the 1-4 spots in pretty much any game?

I think all the guys that man those positions are talented and heady enough to do it. There would be no drop off. Heck, Thiero might be the last guy in and he showed he's a threat to be a starter this season.

 

[Aike]

Oh yeah, we have plenty if guys to plug in at the 5. This front court is stacked.

But do you agree Cal could essentially platoon the 1-4 spots in pretty much any game?

I think all the guys that man those positions are talented and heady enough to do it. There would be no drop off. Heck, Thiero might be the last guy in and he showed he's a threat to be a starter this season.

I hadn’t thought much about it, but if you flipped Wheeler for Wallace, CJ for Reeves, Thiero for Livingston, and Toppin for Collins, I could see it working.

With any of those pairs, it isn’t clear who might be better on any given night. And you introduce the debate of are your better off having 2 guys go hard for 20 minutes each, or splitting them 28/12? If the talent is fairly close, I mean.

That being said, this might not make sense when we’re watching the team in March. Livingston might be way ahead of Thiero, Toppin may be way ahead of Collins, etc. Interesting topic.

 

[ruppcat]

We’ll never see another college team as good as that team. It’s really amazing to think about.

The '96 team says what??

 

[jauk11]

I think we could switch up for stretches and run Toppin at the 5. I don’t think we will, but I think it would work well.

Wallace/Fredrick/Reeves/Livingston/Toppin is what I’d like to see, but you could obviously include Wheeler instead, especially since this would be a run and gun unit.

Could also run Collins at the 5, maybe, but I’m not as crazy about that idea. I like Collins more as a weak-side shot blocker with Oscar’s muscle beside him.

And the NPOTY off the bench. A novel idea.

 

[Aike]

And the NPOTY off the bench. A novel idea.

Did you miss the first sentence about “switch up for stretches?” Or maybe you think Oscar should go 40 minutes a night.

 

[bucsrule8872]

I just don’t see us platooning. We might could platoon, but I don’t think it would work very well. There is such a drop off at the 5, no matter how you slice it, it just wouldn’t make sense to give Tshiebwe only 20 or so minutes.

I think an 8 man rotation is perfect for this team. Rotate Wheeler, Wallace, and Fredrick at the 1 and 2. Rotate Livingston and Reeves at the 3. Rotate Tshiebwe, Toppin, and Collins at the 4 and 5.

I would personally rather see more Toppin at the 5 than Ware. Not sure about Onyenso, but he doesn’t have the offensive game that Toppin has and while he is expected to be a good rim protector I doubt he can defend switches like Toppin.

With this team, I’m kind of inclined to think you play your top 8 as much as possible. There’s a pretty sizeable drop off from the top 8 to the bottom 3, unless someone really surprises.

But the top 8 is about as even as they come. It looks like every one of them can play at this level.

 

[dlh331]

The '96 team says what??

Probably meant going forward.