I'd still consider a consensus 2nd team all-American over an SEC POY, at least if that is the best individual award they have. More people have to agree for someone to be an All-American.
Jerseys in Rupp Rafters: My controversial take
- Thread starter MdWIldcat55
- Start date
Bogans, Prince and possibly even Meeks all belong in the rafters. Not in the slightest because of their NBA careers but, because of their collegiate accomplishments and what they helped the program achieve while at UK.
Meeks holds the single game scoring record for goodness sake! While that alone shouldn't get his jersey in the rafters, it certainly has to be considered as a big factor. He was also a dark horse candidate for NPOY but, because he played on a bad UK team (a criteria flaw of the NPOY award), wasn't a serious contender.
Anyone who argues for Prince can't argue against Bogans.
If you want to talk about jersey's coming down, I take Pitino's, Farmer's and Chapman's down. Of course, none of that will ever happen. At the very least I'd hide Pitino's behind the new scoreboard/sound system.
Meeks holds the single game scoring record for goodness sake! While that alone shouldn't get his jersey in the rafters, it certainly has to be considered as a big factor. He was also a dark horse candidate for NPOY but, because he played on a bad UK team (a criteria flaw of the NPOY award), wasn't a serious contender.
Anyone who argues for Prince can't argue against Bogans.
If you want to talk about jersey's coming down, I take Pitino's, Farmer's and Chapman's down. Of course, none of that will ever happen. At the very least I'd hide Pitino's behind the new scoreboard/sound system.
One sideline for all-americans, one sideline for 1st round selection, one end zone for multi-year achievements, the other end zone for recognition of special teams?
Meeks should not have won NPOY because there were at least half a dozen better candidates, and as you said, they were actually on good teams. I'd take Prince over Bogans because, as I said, Prince actually was a consensus all-american. Bogans biggest accomplishment is SEC POY, which I don't hold as highly.
I think the spirit surrounding the events and times that made the retirement of the jerseys happen should trump conjured up revisionist history. The jerseys should stay and you will see various anomalies around the country with names on rings of honor and in rafters that reflect a specific time and look out of place today. Personally I think Reggie Hanson is an unforgettable too.
You guys feel like I insult Poythress by calling him a role player or also ran in accomplishment in one thread and then be willing to watch as they pull down jerseys and replace them with a one for all one. Imagine how embarrassing and insulted they'd fell watching those jerseys removed.
You guys put way to much weight into the modern era stuff, like wall and such for example.
This isn't a live in the moment program.
You guys feel like I insult Poythress by calling him a role player or also ran in accomplishment in one thread and then be willing to watch as they pull down jerseys and replace them with a one for all one. Imagine how embarrassing and insulted they'd fell watching those jerseys removed.
You guys put way to much weight into the modern era stuff, like wall and such for example.
This isn't a live in the moment program.
Role player does not = also ran. That was bad.
I agree you cannot take any jerseys down.
I believe many feel Wall helped bring UK back like the Unforgettables did, except much quicker. And add the fact he was an All American and runner up POY, which he should have won, Frosh of the Year, and SEC POY.
On individual accomplishments alone he bests JP, RF, SW, and AF combined.
Last edited:
Are the Unforgettables jerseys keeping others from being put up? Interesting.
I'd say it's the opposite. Retiring their jerseys was a knee jerk reaction. The truth is, they don't deserve to be up there based on their individual achievement. Wall deserves to be up there way more than any of those guys and that fact isn't going to change 20 years from now when he still isn't up there, yet the "Unforgettables" are.
Like the other guy said, i'm using what he is doing in the nba and will become in the nba will make Kentucky look silly if they do not put him in the rafters. Since we're all Kentucky fans, i assume most of our fans know what Davis did during his one year at Kentucky and every award he won. Not every Kentucky fan watches the Nba. Wouldn't you agree with it being lame if arguably the greatest player in your school's history not ever having his jersey retired for some stupid rule put in place about graduating?
No, I don't think so, and see no reason why that should be the case. What's keeping Wall, Davis, etc. out of the rafters is UK's outdated criteria.
Some may not agree with my take, but i also think Cousins Jersey should be up there right along with John Wall. Wall got all the attention from that team, but Cousins was the man from day 1. If that dude could have stayed out of foul trouble, the numbers he would have put up would have been crazy. I also think we beat WV if we went to Cousins inside instead of jacking up 3s from all over the court. Especially when you're not making those 3s. Some think the dude is a headcase, but he's our headcase and he's always talking up Kentucky.
This is what happens when you use outdated methods to solve new problems. There's a time when we'd have hung Helms banners or NIT titles up there. Times change, and with them, perspective and standards do as well.
It was dumb to put The Unforgettables up, but it would be a terrible move to bring them down. That's insulting and barring some kind of legal embarrassment or major infraction against the university or something, you don't take a jersey down like that.
That said, you do whatever needs to be done in order to get guys like Wall and Davis in the rafters. Just make a career checklist type thing with several honors/accomplishments on it, and if they meet a certain number of them, whether that be in one year or four, they go up.
National Champion
Final Four MOP
Consensus SEC POY
NDPOY
Consensus AA (1st or 2nd team)
NPOY
Any three of the six gets you up. Or something like that.
It was dumb to put The Unforgettables up, but it would be a terrible move to bring them down. That's insulting and barring some kind of legal embarrassment or major infraction against the university or something, you don't take a jersey down like that.
That said, you do whatever needs to be done in order to get guys like Wall and Davis in the rafters. Just make a career checklist type thing with several honors/accomplishments on it, and if they meet a certain number of them, whether that be in one year or four, they go up.
National Champion
Final Four MOP
Consensus SEC POY
NDPOY
Consensus AA (1st or 2nd team)
NPOY
Any three of the six gets you up. Or something like that.
What is the outdated criteria you're talking about that is keeping Wall and Davis out? There is nothing in the current criteria that would keep these guys from getting in the rafters.
One thing I do want to mention is that the Unforgettables are always mentioned, but no one mentions the 1954 team. I am assuming that is because they went undefeated but didn't play in the NCAA Tournament. But, does anyone know why they only chose certain guys from the team, some of which had very mediocre careers?
Whether we approve or disapprove of the Unforgettables being in the rafters, we do have to remember the time that it was done. We were just blasted by the ncaa and had a UK president throw us to the dogs and allow us to be treated like few have ever been treated before or since then, think unc. I am sure that many fans at the time, and the Administration and Rick too, because players were leaving the program like rats from a sinking ship, felt like this group deserved to be recognized for their heart and loyalty to the program. Do they deserve to be there because of how great of players they were? No. But that shouldn't be the problem or the topic, what should be done is a redo of the rules so that the ones who leave early can still be a part of the tradition of being in the rafters. The setup for that could be so easy and besides why would anybody not want all deserving players to be up there. And lets not belittle any UK players, we are better then that, but a change in the rules needs to happen now, I agree with that.
For the folks mentioning Jodie Meeks name for consideration ... come on.
I'll preface this with the fact that I'm a huge Jodie Meeks fan. He and Patrick Patterson made the train wreck that was Billy Gillispie's UK teams worth watching.
But think about this ... Jodie Meeks was here for 3 years, how many NCAA tournament wins did UK accumulate in his time here? What was it ,,, one? During his freshman year when he was a role player? Not his fault obviously as we had a joke of a coach his last 2 year at UK but that is what it is. To me if a guy has no more than one NCAA tournament win under his belt he simply can't get consideration for a retired jersey. Had he stayed for his senior year and been a part of that 2009-2010 group I'd say there's a really good chance he gets his name up there. Along with another NCAA Championship banner as well.
I'll preface this with the fact that I'm a huge Jodie Meeks fan. He and Patrick Patterson made the train wreck that was Billy Gillispie's UK teams worth watching.
But think about this ... Jodie Meeks was here for 3 years, how many NCAA tournament wins did UK accumulate in his time here? What was it ,,, one? During his freshman year when he was a role player? Not his fault obviously as we had a joke of a coach his last 2 year at UK but that is what it is. To me if a guy has no more than one NCAA tournament win under his belt he simply can't get consideration for a retired jersey. Had he stayed for his senior year and been a part of that 2009-2010 group I'd say there's a really good chance he gets his name up there. Along with another NCAA Championship banner as well.
I thought a player had to stay 4 years ; if that's incorrect I apologize. I've been under that assumption as long as I can recall, and I THOUGHT I'd seen it said on here many times.
So, if there truly is no university rule that would prevent them, then we need to push as best we can to get them in, IMHO.
That's correct, there is no rule saying you need to stay a certain period of time. Also, there is no requirement for graduation, which people often mistake.
Keeping it vague allows you to go by a case by case basis, which isnt necessarily a bad thing, but people want to throw fan favorites who don't deserve it up there. Having set criteria can result in people getting up there undeservedly as well. Like I don't feel WCS deserves it but he was a consensus 1st team all-American. Mercer, Wall, Davis and maybe Prince are the only people who should go up there out of all the players since Delk.
Last edited:
The one that rarely gets mentioned that I think deserves to be up there is Mel Turpin. When he left UK:
9th all-time in scoring
1st all-time in blocked shots
2nd all-time in Field Goal %
13th all-time in rebounds
2-time consensus 1st team All-SEC
Consensus 2nd team All American
Agreed. Mash did for Pitino and UK what John Wall did for Calipari and UK.
Sorry...apparently I'm the only one, but I don't think the one and done guys should have their jerseys in the rafters with the others. Maybe find another way to honor those guys who deserve it, but the rafters should be reserved for the guys who gave the university and the team more than 1 year.
Umm, you can't take down something that never went up. Chapman never had his jersey retired, indeed never even came close on any arguable grounds (never got his degree, never an all american, not much of a statistical legacy, never won anything of national significance, etc.).
Rex might be the most overrated name in UK history.
Last edited:
This argument would carry more weight if his playing career warranted being up there, but it CLEARLY does not. In truth, the guy was nothing but a glorified scrub as a player who usually hurt us more than helped when he was on the floor.
Richie's jersey being retired was ALREADY a joke even long before his arrest, the fact that he's since been revealed to be a thief and crook has only made look like even more of an embarrassing mistake.
I don't think that is accurate. Rex was an immense talent with an ego to match. Playing for that jerk of a coach didn't help in any way, shape or form. I often wonder how UK ended up with some of the coaches that we have endured? Yet, the program has flourished in spite of it.
Why? Some of these kids did more in one year than most of those up there now. This makes no sense to me whatsoever. Take Macy down then, hell he played at Purdue.
This should be about on the court basketball achievement. The fact of the matter is that most of your players you want up there could never have done what kids like Wall, Cousins, and AD did in just one year. They needed multiple years to get great.
Horrible take take in my opinion. Times change, it isn't the kids fault.
And to others, there are still rules in place prior to having a jersey in the rafters:
You must be in the Kentucky Hall of Fame for five years, the requirements for getting in the Hall of Fame have changed. You no longer are required to have a degree in order to enter the UK Athletic Hall of Fame.
Oh, don't blame Rex's shortcomings on the coach. That's a copout excuse. That same coach did a tremendous job the year before Rex arrived, and succeeded everywhere else he went during his career.
Rex was indeed an immense talent, but he accomplished surprisingly little here with that talent, and there were some glaring flaws with his game many of our fans seem to have forgotten--for example, a tendency to become a turnover machine with wild eyed awful shot selection during many moments when we most needed him. He and davender made up the ballhoggingest backcourt in UK history.
The facts are these: the guy never won any sort of significant individual honors on the national level (not even 2d or 3rd team AA), ranks nowhere of note in the UK statistical records, and his teams were underachieving disappointments that flamed out early in the tournament. Viewed objectively, his UK playing legacy comes up short in every possible area.
Last edited:
Certainly sounds like more of a coaching issue to me. But, I guess the obvious is something that some people can see while others can't.
![[winking]](http://l.yimg.com/j/assets/img/emoticons/classic/wink.r191677.gif "Winking [winking]")
Chapman isn't up there and he doesn't deserve it, period. Winning SEC POY and being a consensus 1st team all-American seems to be a pretty consistent indicator of who deserves to be up there.
Macy
K. Walker
Mashburn
Delk
Mercer
Wall
Davis
Not saying you have to do both in order to deserve it, but the names who have achieved it are either up there or should be.
If you want to include second team all-american players that would include Grevey and Prince.
Macy
K. Walker
Mashburn
Delk
Mercer
Wall
Davis
Not saying you have to do both in order to deserve it, but the names who have achieved it are either up there or should be.
If you want to include second team all-american players that would include Grevey and Prince.
Just a couple things about Rex (and I am not saying he belongs up there):
1. When he left UK, he was the all time freshman scoring leader in both points and PPG. Those records stood for 23 years.
2. When left UK, he was the all time sophomore scoring leader in points.
3. The dude scored over 1,000 points in 2 years, quite an accomplishment.
4. He has a better 3 point shooting percentage than guys like Tony Delk, Derek Anderson, Gerald Fitch, Kyle Wiltjer, Jeff Sheppard and Jodie Meeks. Amongst guys with over 200 attempts, he's 3rd all time behind Lamb and Ford.
I think saying he is very overrated might be a bit extreme.
1. When he left UK, he was the all time freshman scoring leader in both points and PPG. Those records stood for 23 years.
2. When left UK, he was the all time sophomore scoring leader in points.
3. The dude scored over 1,000 points in 2 years, quite an accomplishment.
4. He has a better 3 point shooting percentage than guys like Tony Delk, Derek Anderson, Gerald Fitch, Kyle Wiltjer, Jeff Sheppard and Jodie Meeks. Amongst guys with over 200 attempts, he's 3rd all time behind Lamb and Ford.
I think saying he is very overrated might be a bit extreme.
Those are fair points, bt. And, in retrospect, the "most overrated" comment probably was a bit overboard. Rex did score a lot of points in two years, but to be honest, I was never as enamored with him as the rest of the state seemed to be back then.
That Chapman/Davender backcourt used to frustrate the hell out of me. It was one of the most talented backcourts we've ever had at UK, and perhaps the most offensively talented in the entire country at the time, but they really did NOT play that well together. I thought both guys played like me-first gunners who often looked like they thought they were competing against each other to see who could fork up the first shot, instead of trying to complement each other. Can't tell you how many times I recall those guys ignoring wide open teammates as they forked up their own shot instead. Both guys would've been better off if they'd been teamed up with a less talented unselfish pass-first guy like Harden as their running mate instead of playing together.
Those were frustrating teams that failed to perform as their talent level should have.
That Chapman/Davender backcourt used to frustrate the hell out of me. It was one of the most talented backcourts we've ever had at UK, and perhaps the most offensively talented in the entire country at the time, but they really did NOT play that well together. I thought both guys played like me-first gunners who often looked like they thought they were competing against each other to see who could fork up the first shot, instead of trying to complement each other. Can't tell you how many times I recall those guys ignoring wide open teammates as they forked up their own shot instead. Both guys would've been better off if they'd been teamed up with a less talented unselfish pass-first guy like Harden as their running mate instead of playing together.
Those were frustrating teams that failed to perform as their talent level should have.
Last edited:
Similar threads
