Is Dominique a better fit than Alex in the starting line up?

[BigSexyCat]

I think the kid played a hell of a defensive game last night. He brought energy and effort to the game. Don't get me wrong I think Alex was/is a great defensive stopper but I think playing Dominique allows Andrew to play off the ball and not have to guard smaller quicker guards.

This post was edited on 1/14 11:50 AM by BigSexyCat

 

[KentuckyWildcat4Life]

Ummmm.........No
Alex brings so much more to the table.

 

[BigSexyCat]

Originally posted by KentuckyWildcat4Life:
Ummmm.........No
Alex brings so much more to the table.

Details?

 

[Joneslab]

I wouldn't go there but I do think when Hawkins is playing with energy he helps the team. Gives you two quick guards you can stick on the other team's PG. At that point it just becomes scripted chaos defensively.

The only thing about Hawkins--and we saw it last year--is that teams can take him out of the game offensively. We saw it last year: teams would just backpedal off him and give him the open jumper. As the year went on he started to flail because he couldn't make that shot.

If he continues to start and other coaches get into some video on him, I think we'll see more adjustments. Once that happens then you're playing the power play on offense with both platoons with Lee and Hawkins.

But last night I thought he was tremendous.

 

[BigSexyCat]

Originally posted by Joneslab:
I wouldn't go there but I do think when Hawkins is playing with energy he helps the team. Gives you two quick guards you can stick on the other team's PG. At that point it just becomes scripted chaos defensively.

The only thing about Hawkins--and we saw it last year--is that teams can take him out of the game offensively. We saw it last year: teams would just backpedal off him and give him the open jumper. As the year went on he started to flail because he couldn't make that shot.

If he continues to start and other coaches get into some video on him, I think we'll see more adjustments. Once that happens then you're playing the power play on offense with both platoons with Lee and Hawkins.

But last night I thought he was tremendous.

True but wasn't that already happening with Alex. He was not exactly a knock down shooter.

 

[wild mandu]

Originally posted by KentuckyWildcat4Life:
Ummmm.........No
Alex brings so much more to the table.

Like what? Seriously.

I think Dom in the lineup depends on who they're playing. Missouri having smaller guards helped. Against a bigger team, I would start Trey Lyles again. It's nice to have that flexibility.

 

[sefus12]

Originally posted by Joneslab:
I wouldn't go there but I do think when Hawkins is playing with energy he helps the team. Gives you two quick guards you can stick on the other team's PG. At that point it just becomes scripted chaos defensively.

The only thing about Hawkins--and we saw it last year--is that teams can take him out of the game offensively. We saw it last year: teams would just backpedal off him and give him the open jumper. As the year went on he started to flail because he couldn't make that shot.

If he continues to start and other coaches get into some video on him, I think we'll see more adjustments. Once that happens then you're playing the power play on offense with both platoons with Lee and Hawkins.

But last night I thought he was tremendous.

Hawkins jumper is better this year and, more importantly, he's more confident with it. Also, he's a great passer and his little floater in the lane is beautiful. I love his energy and defense and I think he's a weapon when the opposing team has smaller/quicker guards as you will always have he or Ulis on the floor with the platoons.

 

[jackcarlson]

the Blue team was showing some lethargy. Hawkins definitely improves that aspect

 

[CatPhight]

There is little doubt that DH elevates our defense and it was clearly contagious.

We don't beat Michigan last year w/o DH coming in the 2nd half and shutting Stalkas down.

 

[zannmann]

Alex was a better rebounder and shot blocker. He also has a lot of size that makes a difference in the paint. But, it is just according how you look at it. With Hawkins in we are playing with three guards. So, if you move Aaron to the three he is not much shorter than Alex, but does not rebound or play interior D as good. The platoon just takes on a different life with Hawkins instead of Alex. It is not for the better or worse, it is just a different animal.

 

[Joneslab]

Originally posted by BigSexyCat:

Originally posted by Joneslab:
I wouldn't go there but I do think when Hawkins is playing with energy he helps the team. Gives you two quick guards you can stick on the other team's PG. At that point it just becomes scripted chaos defensively.

The only thing about Hawkins--and we saw it last year--is that teams can take him out of the game offensively. We saw it last year: teams would just backpedal off him and give him the open jumper. As the year went on he started to flail because he couldn't make that shot.

If he continues to start and other coaches get into some video on him, I think we'll see more adjustments. Once that happens then you're playing the power play on offense with both platoons with Lee and Hawkins.

But last night I thought he was tremendous.

True but wasn't that already happening with Alex. He was not exactly a knock down shooter.

He had shown an ability to get in there and scrap.

The dirty secret about Poythress is that he hadn't been very good on the season. I think he was arguably our most ineffective player when he went out, and that's including Marcus Lee, who'd had two very good games, one against Kansas. (Lee has regressed post-Poythress.)

People called him a "great rebounder"--that wasn't true. He hadn't rebounded well, he obviously hadn't scored well, but he'd had some spectacular defense plays. He was just a solid defender and that was pretty much what he'd brought to the table. He was getting outplayed by Lyles in a pretty significant way and the only game Poythress had played at a very high level was probably Texas.

 

[uk78]

I was surprised of course that Lyles wasn't on the first unit. But, this is why Cal is such a great coach. Hawkins was huge last night especially defensively. He allowed the platoon system to work and I think Kentucky played its best game against Missouri. Yes, better than UCLA and Kansas. UCLA had open looks but couldn't hit shots, and Kansas was early in the season and they hadn't yet faced a big front line. But, Missouri rarely got any looks and several times ran out of time. Plus, the Kentucky offense returned to working inside as the first option rather than just taking outside shots. Yes, of course a number of 3's were taken and hit, but they came inside out which has been the problem in the last 2 games where the offense was too much relying on those as the first option. So, Hawkins brought a lot.

However, will he be consistent? Will other teams with better guards influence things? Would Cal rotate Hawkins and Lyles to the other platoons? A lot to see yet. So, can't make any conclusions after one game on what impact Hawkins will have versus Alex in the past.

 

[reignof cats]

Originally posted by Joneslab:
I wouldn't go there but I do think when Hawkins is playing with energy he helps the team. Gives you two quick guards you can stick on the other team's PG. At that point it just becomes scripted chaos defensively.

The only thing about Hawkins--and we saw it last year--is that teams can take him out of the game offensively. We saw it last year: teams would just backpedal off him and give him the open jumper. As the year went on he started to flail because he couldn't make that shot.

If he continues to start and other coaches get into some video on him, I think we'll see more adjustments. Once that happens then you're playing the power play on offense with both platoons with Lee and Hawkins.

But last night I thought he was tremendous.

Not true on Lee. Lee is down low by the basket or is used to set screens. Ulis /Book/Lyles are a 3 headed monster with dakari down low. If Dakari shoots ft's well that is a deadly unit. Lee is used to block shots, clean up misses, play defense, and run the floor for break outs. Hawkins has a nice floater and can shoot mid range. Hawk needs to work on his 3. Hawk's defense is better than POY's period. Cut the head off the snake (pg) and nothing works. Hawk did this for us last year against the other teams best scorer. If you have not noticed, other teams have been sagging back playing zone against us.
POY did not shoot the other team out of a zone. Our bigs have been doubled for most of the year. Twins are good enough from 3. Even KAT can shoot from 3. Defense wins Ships. Hawk is our best defender playing on the floor with 4 talented nba players. GBB

 

[BigSexyCat]

Originally posted by zannmann:
Alex was a better rebounder and shot blocker. He also has a lot of size that makes a difference in the paint. But, it is just according how you look at it. With Hawkins in we are playing with three guards. So, if you move Aaron to the three he is not much shorter than Alex, but does not rebound or play interior D as good. The platoon just takes on a different life with Hawkins instead of Alex. It is not for the better or worse, it is just a different animal.

Agree that Alex was a better rebounder and shot blocker but he was also playing a wing position versus post so therefore was not necessarily required to rebound or shot black a great deal.

 

[Joneslab]

Originally posted by reignof cats:

Originally posted by Joneslab:
I wouldn't go there but I do think when Hawkins is playing with energy he helps the team. Gives you two quick guards you can stick on the other team's PG. At that point it just becomes scripted chaos defensively.

The only thing about Hawkins--and we saw it last year--is that teams can take him out of the game offensively. We saw it last year: teams would just backpedal off him and give him the open jumper. As the year went on he started to flail because he couldn't make that shot.

If he continues to start and other coaches get into some video on him, I think we'll see more adjustments. Once that happens then you're playing the power play on offense with both platoons with Lee and Hawkins.

But last night I thought he was tremendous.

Not true on Lee. Lee is down low by the basket or is used to set screens.

Regardless of where he is, with him in there you're four-on-five offensively. The same with Hawkins.

I don't know if that means anything. And I'm certainly not making the argument against those guys playing. I'm just pointing out that on a team that's been a little offensively challenged this year, one thing putting Hawkins into the starting line-up does is that it takes out a guy who's become a known quantity (Lyles) and replaces him with a player who's shown he can't make open shots.

And regarding the "defense wins championships" post--I've always felt that maxim was untrue. Teams can't be unbalanced. If you're great on one end and poor on another, you're always going to be susceptible to a loss.

 

[kats23]

Hawkins is a matchup guy. Remember, UK was playing a 7-8 team last night. Not exactly world beaters and after the last couple of games I think Cal wanted to send a message playing time could be at risk if you play flat and uninspired again. Plus, with Hawkins he brings the energy to the court on the defensive side when he can play with the other team. This happened last year as well. Hawkins played sparingly at times and everybody went nuts for him but he slowly faded out of the lineup and his minutes went away. I really expect the same thing to happen again as UK gets closer to March.

Cal may have him in the lineup Saturday just because it worked so well last night but I don't expect to see him in the lineup all year or when the competition toughens up. Alex could rebound, defend multiple positions, and bring energy. For me, last night was more about Trey Lyles and his lack of intensity on the defensive side of the court than this is about Hawkins. Cal could send a message and afford to against a bad team. It looked like it worked too.

 

[ukbowl2006]

The two prior games, we seemed to have issues guarding bigger guards - Hawkins takes care of that. I also like him as the primary ballhandler with the twins.

In a vacuum is he better than Poythress? Maybe not, and one game is too small of a sample, but he's definitely a better fit in that platoon, imo.

Interesting the lack of discussion of the platoons coming back? Just because it was Mizzou, or maybe this team is just better in that substitution pattern?

 

[Smashcat]

In a vacuum is he better than Poythress? Maybe not, and one game is too small of a sample, but he's definitely a better fit in that platoon, imo.


Without him, there are no platoons. Best move Cal has made in a while.

 

[KyLegacy]

No, just no.

 

[reignof cats]

Hawkins is a better on ball defender than Andrew. Is Andrew a better defender than AP? Hawkins is on the floor with 4 nba prospects. 1 of the other 4 guys should be able to take advantage of a match up. UK fans should know better. UConn had a lot of role players with Kemba and Napier. How did that turn out for them? Hawkins is going to make life hell for the other teams pg or top scorer. There is a reason why he played so much last year. ROLE players are needed on the floor. GBB

 

[Cats192]

I think what Poythress brought on the inside took the defense to another level.

His size allowed him to sky for rebounds. He was giving 4 per game with only 2 minutes. That comes out to about 6 per game over the course of 30 mins.

His shot blocking was also very impressive, and he was great at running down fast break lay ups.

I'll never understand the infatuation with the offense. If we're keeping opponents under 30%, GOOD opponents at that--why are we freaking out about the offense?

 

[Joneslab]

Originally posted by reignof cats:

ROLE players are needed on the floor.

I agree but at this level guards need to be able to hit open jumpshots.

We saw it last year with Hawkins. Hawkins had a great first 10 games or so. Then he started to struggle because guys would just basically walk away from him. There were times last season when Hawkins would be standing so wide open you couldn't see the defender on the screen.

Anytime you have that much of a problem putting the ball in the basket you better be playing at an incredibly high level on the other end. Hawkins was last night, but it's hard to bring that sort of energy every time out.

 

[Xception]

No

Alex brings rebounding and a more flexible or even better defender . He could chase down players and erase a fast break or even shut one down like Luke Hancock for example . He can give the team energy with his put back slams , teammates have stated so in the past .

Hawkins is fine , he can play good defense on a backcourt player but that's the only aspect that he is better than Poythres at .

 

[reignof cats]

Originally posted by Joneslab:

Originally posted by reignof cats:

ROLE players are needed on the floor.

I agree but at this level guards need to be able to hit open jumpshots.

We saw it last year with Hawkins. Hawkins had a great first 10 games or so. Then he started to struggle because guys would just basically walk away from him. There were times last season when Hawkins would be standing so wide open you couldn't see the defender on the screen.

Anytime you have that much of a problem putting the ball in the basket you better be playing at an incredibly high level on the other end. Hawkins was last night, but it's hard to bring that sort of energy every time out.

Name 1 game when Hawkins did not come out and play with incredible defensive energy. Hawk scored 6 points last night. He missed his 3's but he shot them without hesitating. Our bigs got the rebound and scored on a put back. Hawkins job is to prevent the other teams best player from shooting wide open jump shots. He got some rebounds, steals, and assists as well. How many games has AP completely disappeared from the score sheet? Who is guarding the more relevant player? AP is more athletic than Hawk and can make plays that no one on the team can make. Other than the Duke game a few years back, when has AP taken over a game? AP comes and goes in spurts. AP is a role player on our team. GBB

 

[Comebakatz3]

I honestly think it is almost a push. Offensively both players leave something to be desired. On defense Poy is very solid, and pretty versatile. He could guard just about anyone, and was also a shot blocker and rebounder. On the other hand, Dom is a lock down type defender who is going to bring energy and hustle and will make plays that will lead to some more offense. Situationally I think both can be and would be extremely valuable.

In terms of offense, last night was a great game for Hawk. I think against zone defenses he could really be a beast, and I think he'll struggle against man. A big weakness of a zone occurs when you get into the middle of it, and Hawk did that several times last night and it opened up a lot of options for us, including his little floater. We're going to see a ton of zone this year, so if he can continue to attack it like he did last night then his value on offense could really make him more of an asset than Poy.

 

[moe#8]

no way, not even close.

 

[Seth C]

Originally posted by KentuckyWildcat4Life:
Ummmm.........No
Alex brings so much more to the table.

He does. And I think on every individual level you compared them, Poy would win. However, Poy was hard on himself. When things weren't going well for him, I think he became obviously frustrated with himself. He expected more from himself, and that's okay, he should.

Dom was just out there to give it his all. It was clear that he didn't care if he scored, or whatever. He was going to play his heart out and let the chips fall where they may. I think that benefited his squad greatly.

 

[Nubb16]

Originally posted by wild mandu:

Originally posted by KentuckyWildcat4Life:
Ummmm.........No
Alex brings so much more to the table.

Like what? Seriously.

I think Dom in the lineup depends on who they're playing. Missouri having smaller guards helped. Against a bigger team, I would start Trey Lyles again. It's nice to have that flexibility.

Rebounding? Scoring? Strength? Height? Physicality? Guarding the other teams best player?

 

[gossie21]

"Better" is such a buzzword, and I'm not sure it has a whole lot of meaning without some context. Poythress and Hawkins both bring something very unique to the team. What Poythress does cannot be replaced and Hawkins has a skillset that provides relief to other players.


What often gets forgotten is what an incredible athlete Dominique is. At the "NBA Combine" Hawkins recorded the 3rd highest ever max-vertical in the DraftExpress database with a 44.5" vertical. He is 5'11 with a 6-5.5" wingspan. He's like a poor man's Eric Bledsoe (if he can develop a more reliable outside shot he might shed the poor man label).


What I enjoyed most about Hawkins last night was the way he scrapped on offensive rebounds to keep plays alive. He was directly responsible for 2 second chance points early in the game. That energy and effort was missing last week.

 

[St.PatterSoN-54-]

Better player than POY? No, or else he would have been starting over POY. Better fit than POY? Closer than you might think, bc POY was being asked to play out of position.

Do I love the fact that putting Hawk or Derek in the rotation allows us to go back to platoons? ABSOLUTELY.

I've been reading this morning about how Cal was challenging each platoon to hold UM to less than 6 points each rotation. I love it.

 

[UK90]

Originally posted by St.PatterSoN-54-:

Better player than POY? No, or else he would have been starting over POY. Better fit than POY? Closer than you might think, bc POY was being asked to play out of position..

Solid point. I think some people on this thread are confusing "better" with better "fit".

Obviously Dom is not a better player than Poy. But I think the "fit" thing is at least debatable. With the extra guard on the floor this team plainly seems to have better spacing and functions more fluidly on offense, and then there is the fact that Poy was essentially being forced to play out of position on this team and spend too much time out on the perimeter and in spots where he's clearly uncomfortable.

Obviously only one game with Dom there isn't nearly enough of a sample size to give an informed opinion, but I think it's an interesting question to consider if we continue with this plan.

 

[Poetax]

Originally posted by BigSexyCat:
I think the kid played a hell of a defensive game last night. He brought energy and effort to the game. Don't get me wrong I think Alex was/is a great defensive stopper but I think playing Dominique allows Andrew to play off the ball and not have to guard smaller quicker guards.

This post was edited on 1/14 11:50 AM by BigSexyCat

No but I can tell you feel this way. Two different players but Alex is more talented and filled a need in rebounding and inside scoring. Hawkins did fine and hopefully he continues that.

 

[wild mandu]

I totally missed the transition Poythress had in becoming a rebounder. But you guys are certain of it, so...

 

[.S&C.]

I've never seen more people move with the "tide" than this board.

Just two days ago, Willis AND Dominique were on the same level, WOULDNT play, pretty much might transfer out for playing time.

Now Dominique is better than Alex poythress.

Both takes are equally as bad.

This post was edited on 1/14 11:58 AM by .S&C.

 

[Joneslab]

To me a far more interesting discussion than Poythress vs. Hawkins is whether or not the team was helped last night by the platoons and whether Hawkins simply being in there to round out the two teams of five was a difference-maker.

I think a case can be made either way. He played nine guys against UCLA and UNC and the team played very well. We've played well playing platoons, obviously.

Some have made the case that they were more comfortable last night because of the five-in/five-out. That could be. But then again, it was Missouri.

I think he'll stick with it at Alabama and then we'll get more of a feel for whether it can work over the long haul. As I said above, the Hawkins we saw last night invariably helps the team. The Hawkins they leave open and bait into jumpshots can hurt you the same way Poythress did when teams dared him to shoot.

 

[RondoBaller21]

absolutely love Hawkins getting PT, but lets be real here...Poy is 100 times the player Hawkins is

 

[bigblueinsanity]

He isnt a better fit than Alex. But he's a better fit than Lyles. Lyles was struggling a bit guarding the 3. And this let's the twins guard the 2 and 3 while Hawkins guards the PG.

Incredible adjustment. And paid immediate dividends.

 

[Joneslab]

Originally posted by bigblueinsanity:
He isnt a better fit than Alex. But he's a better fit than Lyles. Lyles was struggling a bit guarding the 3. And this let's the twins guard the 2 and 3 while Hawkins guards the PG.

Incredible adjustment. And paid immediate dividends.

I hadn't noticed Lyles breaking down defensively. If we were being hurt the last two games, it was from line drives coming from the 1s and 2s. Summers hurt us, Moody hurt us, the two point guards for Texas A&M hurt us. Danuel House hurt us but he was working against a few different guys and mostly down low.

Not sure I buy that. I think Hawkins started simply to make the math work and settle the platoons into two fives.

 

[BoulderCat]

Short answer is no. I think we definitely lost something when we lost Alex. Now given he's out for the year I really liked trying Hawkins for the 1st platoon. As you note he brings a lot of energy, particularly on the defensive end. That alone makes him valuable plus he played a decent game. 20 mins, 3 assists, 2 steals, and 2-2 from the FT line. Yea, he missed all his 3's, but that's not really his game.

It also allows Cal to go back to the platoon system. Look at the minutes last night. Not one guy over 23 minutes (Willie), 9 with 18 or more, and 10 with 15 or more. It was working very well, and I was glad to see Cal find a way to go back to it. Certainly can't argue with the result.

 

[qwesley]

Poy really struggled on offense at the 3, just a different player out on the perimeter.

Hawkins has the intangibles (energy, keeping balls alive, defense-first) that winning teams need...als Mu Evans, Epps, MKG, Liggins, etc. CBB is very guard-oriented right now, having an elite defender in the mix could really help us avoid an upset in the tourney.

Think about Mu knocking the ball out to Padgett for 3 in 98 against Duke, MKG blocking the reverse layup from Taylor, Poy against UL last year (at PF, btw) or Liggins making Barnes want to cry.

He should have been in the rotation all along.