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If I was Mitch B, and was conducting the end of year review for Coach Stoops:

Tskware

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Jan 27, 2003
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Here is what I would tell him:

I am going to assume we win tomorrow and lose to UL, and finish 5-7. So, Stoops will be back, but if I am MB conducting the year end review, knowing I have basically painted myself into a corner by prematurely extending and way overpaying Stoops for the next few years (and he has) and due to contract terms, cannot realistically let him go (unless the floor drops out from under the program, which I will get to), here are the metrics I would look at for Stoops in 2016-2018.

Here is what I would tell Coach Stoops: To keep your job, you have to win 21 games in the next three years. Period.

First, here is how you get there: Win all nine games against the OOC powder puffs on the schedule. No more losses to Western, and further, no more nail biters against the likes of EKU and ULL, who we had down 33-10 in the 3rd quarter this season. In short, we are “posed to be SEC”, when you play someone in a lower level conference, we need to win and win easy.

Second, Louisville, Miss State and Vandy. We have nine games every three years against what should be relatively equal programs. You have to win 5 of those 9. That gives you 14 of the 21 wins right there. In Stoops first 3 seasons though, we are 1-7 against these three programs, and likely to be 1-8. That is simply not acceptable.

Then, finally, you have to win 7 of the remaining 18 games in three years against the other five teams in the SEC East, plus three from the West, including next year in Tuscaloosa, which, lets be frank, is a 99.9% sure loss. But still, you have beaten USC and Missouri 3 of 6, which is good. And to be successful and retained as the UK coach, you have to beat Florida, Tennessee, LSU, Auburn, Georgia, etc. at least some of the time. Brooks had four wins over those teams in his last 4 years, it is not impossible at Kentucky, it can be done and should be expected in order to keep a $3M/year job.

Now, I did not just pick 21 regular season wins out of my backside as the bogey to measure performance of the UK head coach.

Look at our previous coaches. Joker had five or six wins in 2 of the 3 years he coached. Brooks did it his last four years, Morriss won 7 in one of two seasons, Mumme won at least five his first three years at UK before cratering in year four. Going further back, if you assume we would have scheduled a total pushover for an easy win for game 12 in the years where we only played 11, even Bill Curry went 4-7 his last two years, and therefore, would have won 5 games in 5 of the seven seasons he coached, and Claiborne actually won at least 5 every year from 1983-1989.

Point being is that Stoops so far has done about the same, more or less, as any other coach we have hired since 1982. So, historically speaking, it is no great accomplishment to go 5-7 consistently at Kentucky. Under present circumstances. I would suggest we could hire almost any competent coach and expect to win 4-6 games annually, because the last SEVEN UK head coaches have done so.

[I did not consider bowl wins in the above analysis, given that we have only won three bowls since 1984, do not consider them statistically significant.]

Finally, if I am MB, there is the outlier scenario I would discuss with Coach Stoops. First, if Stoops were to win 8 or 9 games in 2016, or 2017, or pull off a NYD win in the Outback or Capital One Bowl, we probably have the right guy, and that goes a long way to signing another long extension. Conversely, if you go 4-8 next two years, or 3-9 in ANY year, you are done, no matter what the buyout is.

Anyway, FWIW, that is my take on how the end of the year review should go between AD and head coach.
 
Crazy post. No coach in the SEC could deliver on such foolishness. Why?
Because no matter who you are other than Bama, the SEC is just to unpredicaple and the difference in a win or a loss can fall on one bad call by some official. Plus one recruit can make or break a program. What if UK this year had a proven QB whit the skills to pass and run they would probably have 2-3 more wins.

Stoops get 5 years period.
 
Crazy post. No coach in the SEC could deliver on such foolishness. Why?
Because no matter who you are other than Bama, the SEC is just to unpredicaple and the difference in a win or a loss can fall on one bad call by some official. Plus one recruit can make or break a program. What if UK this year had a proven QB whit the skills to pass and run they would probably have 2-3 more wins.

Stoops get 5 years period.

5 more years or 5 years total?
 
Here is what I would tell him:

I am going to assume we win tomorrow and lose to UL, and finish 5-7. So, Stoops will be back, but if I am MB conducting the year end review, knowing I have basically painted myself into a corner by prematurely extending and way overpaying Stoops for the next few years (and he has) and due to contract terms, cannot realistically let him go (unless the floor drops out from under the program, which I will get to), here are the metrics I would look at for Stoops in 2016-2018.

Here is what I would tell Coach Stoops: To keep your job, you have to win 21 games in the next three years. Period.

First, here is how you get there: Win all nine games against the OOC powder puffs on the schedule. No more losses to Western, and further, no more nail biters against the likes of EKU and ULL, who we had down 33-10 in the 3rd quarter this season. In short, we are “posed to be SEC”, when you play someone in a lower level conference, we need to win and win easy.

Second, Louisville, Miss State and Vandy. We have nine games every three years against what should be relatively equal programs. You have to win 5 of those 9. That gives you 14 of the 21 wins right there. In Stoops first 3 seasons though, we are 1-7 against these three programs, and likely to be 1-8. That is simply not acceptable.

Then, finally, you have to win 7 of the remaining 18 games in three years against the other five teams in the SEC East, plus three from the West, including next year in Tuscaloosa, which, lets be frank, is a 99.9% sure loss. But still, you have beaten USC and Missouri 3 of 6, which is good. And to be successful and retained as the UK coach, you have to beat Florida, Tennessee, LSU, Auburn, Georgia, etc. at least some of the time. Brooks had four wins over those teams in his last 4 years, it is not impossible at Kentucky, it can be done and should be expected in order to keep a $3M/year job.

Now, I did not just pick 21 regular season wins out of my backside as the bogey to measure performance of the UK head coach.

Look at our previous coaches. Joker had five or six wins in 2 of the 3 years he coached. Brooks did it his last four years, Morriss won 7 in one of two seasons, Mumme won at least five his first three years at UK before cratering in year four. Going further back, if you assume we would have scheduled a total pushover for an easy win for game 12 in the years where we only played 11, even Bill Curry went 4-7 his last two years, and therefore, would have won 5 games in 5 of the seven seasons he coached, and Claiborne actually won at least 5 every year from 1983-1989.

Point being is that Stoops so far has done about the same, more or less, as any other coach we have hired since 1982. So, historically speaking, it is no great accomplishment to go 5-7 consistently at Kentucky. Under present circumstances. I would suggest we could hire almost any competent coach and expect to win 4-6 games annually, because the last SEVEN UK head coaches have done so.

[I did not consider bowl wins in the above analysis, given that we have only won three bowls since 1984, do not consider them statistically significant.]

Finally, if I am MB, there is the outlier scenario I would discuss with Coach Stoops. First, if Stoops were to win 8 or 9 games in 2016, or 2017, or pull off a NYD win in the Outback or Capital One Bowl, we probably have the right guy, and that goes a long way to signing another long extension. Conversely, if you go 4-8 next two years, or 3-9 in ANY year, you are done, no matter what the buyout is.

Anyway, FWIW, that is my take on how the end of the year review should go between AD and head coach.
Good analysis. Where I would disagree is this:

We shouldn't look at Mississippi State as a Vandy or UofLofL anymore. We are on a 7 game losing streak and it just might hit triple digits against Mullen.

The good news is Mizzou is now a paper tiger, and we can, and should, start beating them, half of the time.

Substitute Mizzou with Miss. St. and I agree with your post but actually, we should beat the Tards, Vandy, and Mizzou at least 6 out of 9 times.
 
Here is what I would tell him:

I am going to assume we win tomorrow and lose to UL, and finish 5-7. So, Stoops will be back, but if I am MB conducting the year end review, knowing I have basically painted myself into a corner by prematurely extending and way overpaying Stoops for the next few years (and he has) and due to contract terms, cannot realistically let him go (unless the floor drops out from under the program, which I will get to), here are the metrics I would look at for Stoops in 2016-2018.

Here is what I would tell Coach Stoops: To keep your job, you have to win 21 games in the next three years. Period.

First, here is how you get there: Win all nine games against the OOC powder puffs on the schedule. No more losses to Western, and further, no more nail biters against the likes of EKU and ULL, who we had down 33-10 in the 3rd quarter this season. In short, we are “posed to be SEC”, when you play someone in a lower level conference, we need to win and win easy.

Second, Louisville, Miss State and Vandy. We have nine games every three years against what should be relatively equal programs. You have to win 5 of those 9. That gives you 14 of the 21 wins right there. In Stoops first 3 seasons though, we are 1-7 against these three programs, and likely to be 1-8. That is simply not acceptable.

Then, finally, you have to win 7 of the remaining 18 games in three years against the other five teams in the SEC East, plus three from the West, including next year in Tuscaloosa, which, lets be frank, is a 99.9% sure loss. But still, you have beaten USC and Missouri 3 of 6, which is good. And to be successful and retained as the UK coach, you have to beat Florida, Tennessee, LSU, Auburn, Georgia, etc. at least some of the time. Brooks had four wins over those teams in his last 4 years, it is not impossible at Kentucky, it can be done and should be expected in order to keep a $3M/year job.

Now, I did not just pick 21 regular season wins out of my backside as the bogey to measure performance of the UK head coach.

Look at our previous coaches. Joker had five or six wins in 2 of the 3 years he coached. Brooks did it his last four years, Morriss won 7 in one of two seasons, Mumme won at least five his first three years at UK before cratering in year four. Going further back, if you assume we would have scheduled a total pushover for an easy win for game 12 in the years where we only played 11, even Bill Curry went 4-7 his last two years, and therefore, would have won 5 games in 5 of the seven seasons he coached, and Claiborne actually won at least 5 every year from 1983-1989.

Point being is that Stoops so far has done about the same, more or less, as any other coach we have hired since 1982. So, historically speaking, it is no great accomplishment to go 5-7 consistently at Kentucky. Under present circumstances. I would suggest we could hire almost any competent coach and expect to win 4-6 games annually, because the last SEVEN UK head coaches have done so.

[I did not consider bowl wins in the above analysis, given that we have only won three bowls since 1984, do not consider them statistically significant.]

Finally, if I am MB, there is the outlier scenario I would discuss with Coach Stoops. First, if Stoops were to win 8 or 9 games in 2016, or 2017, or pull off a NYD win in the Outback or Capital One Bowl, we probably have the right guy, and that goes a long way to signing another long extension. Conversely, if you go 4-8 next two years, or 3-9 in ANY year, you are done, no matter what the buyout is.

Anyway, FWIW, that is my take on how the end of the year review should go between AD and head coach.
Honestly, the more I think about it, the more I find a loss to a hapless Vandy team inexcusable in Stoops' third year. Especially the way they lost. Just a program crushing loss.
 
Crazy post. No coach in the SEC could deliver on such foolishness. Why?
Because no matter who you are other than Bama, the SEC is just to unpredicaple and the difference in a win or a loss can fall on one bad call by some official. Plus one recruit can make or break a program. What if UK this year had a proven QB whit the skills to pass and run they would probably have 2-3 more wins.

Stoops get 5 years period.


Umm.. Tskware gave him 3 more years with benchmarks, you are only giving him 2 with none.
How does that make sense?
 
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As an AD, you never meet with a coach and say, "hey, if we can just go 7-5/3-5 every year over the next 3 years, you've been successful." It's about progress. You go in saying the expectation is that you make bowls and progress each year along the way. The expectation is that in 3 years, we are relevant in the SEC and National picture. My go into an evlauation and settle for mediocrity for the next 3 years?
 
Great post in theory. We have to beat Mizzou, Miss St. 2 out of 3 years, Need to beat Vandy every year, must beat UL 2/3 years, we are recruiting better than Petrino and he has never maintained greatness at a program after his first 3-4 years, his lack of recruiting will catch up with him in coming years after Charley's guys are gone. You have to beat S. Carolina every other year or more, you hope you can beat Fla once every 5 years and UT-Ga.

That to me is how you do it. There is a route to do it. This domination of Miss. St. and losing to UL and Vandy is terrible.
IMO
 
21 wins in three seasons is not mediocre by UK standards.
Beating 3 cupcakes, UL and having a losing record in conference is basically what you're shooting for. It's a defeatest mentality. Go out there and beat Vandy, USC and MIzzou and we think we've made progress? When you set goals as the leader of a program, you never go in with a defeatest mentality.
 
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Mitch B. needs to take a hard look at himself as well. If the Stoops era goes [further] south, he needs to be out the door with Stoops.
 
Beating 3 cupcakes, UL and having a losing record in conference is basically what you're shooting for. It's a defeatest mentality. Go out there and beat Vandy, USC and MIzzou and we think we've made progress? When you set goals as the leader of a program, you never go in with a defeatest mentality.



I didnt read it like that BT, I believe Tommy stated that was the minimum expectation, and since the demise over the last few years how high would you set the bar over the next 3?

These are doable and establish some foundation.
 
Average 7 wins over the next 3 years? Setting the bar awfully high aren't we? I thought we brought Stoops in to take this program to the next level? Winning 7 games in year 6 would be progress? Come on. When are we going to start getting serious about ACTUALLY taking the next step and not absurdly thinking that a coach needs 15-20 years to do so?

A coach has ample opportunity to show what he's got over a period of 3-4 years (and yes, I understand that a program is likely going to be in better shape in year 7 than it is in year 3 if you have a coach that knows what he's doing, but I also don't have to watch a mechanic for 5 hours to realize whether he knows what he's doing, I can spot that within the first 30 minutes without waiting another 4.5 hours to see the finished product). We've seen time and time and time again what kind of coach Stoops is. You shouldn't be looking as bad as we have in year 3. You shouldn't be squeaking by non power 5 teams in year 3. You shouldn't be running a team without a special teams coach in year 3 (and you should know better if you're any kind of head coach, let's be real here). You shouldn't have a coaching staff loaded with guys who have never actually been in the position in which they are now coaching. In year 3 you shouldn't be getting beaten by the worst team in the conference (with a second year coach that could barely muster a yard the year before) because you didn't call a timeout on a field goal when the time was running down. You shouldn't be giving up touchdowns on the oldest trick play in the book and look totally lost in the process. You shouldn't go through a series of special teams series where you have 6 straight penalties or mistakes IN A ROW. Be honest with yourself, is that talent or is it coaching?

Come on guys. Do some of you honestly think that if Stoops and this staff are getting the basics like that terribly wrong time after time in year 3 that they're going to be any better in year 5 or year 10 or year 20? A zebra can't change his stripes and a leopard can't change his spots. Stoops is what he is. I don't enjoy saying that, but what good does it do us to lie to ourself? We're seeing COACHING mistakes in year 3 that high school and middle school coaches wouldn't even make. Do you really think talent is the reason we lost to a downtroddeen Vandy team where we had a noticeable size and speed advantage at almost every single position? Do you think talent is the reason a division II team pushed us around and dominated us, or do you think it's coaching? Do you think talent is the reason we needed a last second touchdown to beat Louisiana Lafayette in year 3? Come on, when are we going to leave the EMOTION of being a UK fan out of it and start being objective about what we've got and how long it takes to build a team in modern day football (not 1950's football where a coach got 10 years to show what he's got).
 
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Here is what I would tell him:

I am going to assume we win tomorrow and lose to UL, and finish 5-7. So, Stoops will be back, but if I am MB conducting the year end review, knowing I have basically painted myself into a corner by prematurely extending and way overpaying Stoops for the next few years (and he has) and due to contract terms, cannot realistically let him go (unless the floor drops out from under the program, which I will get to), here are the metrics I would look at for Stoops in 2016-2018.

Here is what I would tell Coach Stoops: To keep your job, you have to win 21 games in the next three years. Period.

First, here is how you get there: Win all nine games against the OOC powder puffs on the schedule. No more losses to Western, and further, no more nail biters against the likes of EKU and ULL, who we had down 33-10 in the 3rd quarter this season. In short, we are “posed to be SEC”, when you play someone in a lower level conference, we need to win and win easy.

Second, Louisville, Miss State and Vandy. We have nine games every three years against what should be relatively equal programs. You have to win 5 of those 9. That gives you 14 of the 21 wins right there. In Stoops first 3 seasons though, we are 1-7 against these three programs, and likely to be 1-8. That is simply not acceptable.

Then, finally, you have to win 7 of the remaining 18 games in three years against the other five teams in the SEC East, plus three from the West, including next year in Tuscaloosa, which, lets be frank, is a 99.9% sure loss. But still, you have beaten USC and Missouri 3 of 6, which is good. And to be successful and retained as the UK coach, you have to beat Florida, Tennessee, LSU, Auburn, Georgia, etc. at least some of the time. Brooks had four wins over those teams in his last 4 years, it is not impossible at Kentucky, it can be done and should be expected in order to keep a $3M/year job.

Now, I did not just pick 21 regular season wins out of my backside as the bogey to measure performance of the UK head coach.

Look at our previous coaches. Joker had five or six wins in 2 of the 3 years he coached. Brooks did it his last four years, Morriss won 7 in one of two seasons, Mumme won at least five his first three years at UK before cratering in year four. Going further back, if you assume we would have scheduled a total pushover for an easy win for game 12 in the years where we only played 11, even Bill Curry went 4-7 his last two years, and therefore, would have won 5 games in 5 of the seven seasons he coached, and Claiborne actually won at least 5 every year from 1983-1989.

Point being is that Stoops so far has done about the same, more or less, as any other coach we have hired since 1982. So, historically speaking, it is no great accomplishment to go 5-7 consistently at Kentucky. Under present circumstances. I would suggest we could hire almost any competent coach and expect to win 4-6 games annually, because the last SEVEN UK head coaches have done so.

[I did not consider bowl wins in the above analysis, given that we have only won three bowls since 1984, do not consider them statistically significant.]

Finally, if I am MB, there is the outlier scenario I would discuss with Coach Stoops. First, if Stoops were to win 8 or 9 games in 2016, or 2017, or pull off a NYD win in the Outback or Capital One Bowl, we probably have the right guy, and that goes a long way to signing another long extension. Conversely, if you go 4-8 next two years, or 3-9 in ANY year, you are done, no matter what the buyout is.

Anyway, FWIW, that is my take on how the end of the year review should go between AD and head coach.

Good thoughts...my MB year end review discussion would be more like:

"Mark, I know what a difficult position you and your staff are in trying to compete in this NFL feeder conference...no more open check book and all hands on deck for basketball...your football program needs it too. We are working on the facilities part and they will be great. However, as I stated on the pregame show, this is a big boy conference and we need the five and four star players and will do everything, and I mean EVERYTHING in order to get them in here on your roster."
 
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