Highs and Lows of the Mark Stoops era
- Thread starter Brock28
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Pretty good article, but he could have listed several more serious lows just this season alone...UF, U6, Ole Miss. The secE will be much stronger next year with the coaching changes and strangely MS is the most tenured guy in the East...2018 is MS put up or shut up season if recruiting is as good as they say. We shall see. Spring practice starts 3/20
Not really. We haven't recruited as well as most SEC programs. Equal or any record improvement will be good. True that we will see.
It's a shame that seven wins has been set as the bar for contract extension and bonus.
It really is a shame slugger. Last season, Kentucky struggled in some games they shouldn't have. Considering the schedule, I thought we'd certainly see more than seven wins. The losses to Ole Miss and Florida were true gut punches. Both were games UK had opportunities to close out.
Going forward, Kentucky REALLY needs a playmaker at QB. Stoops has never had one. We HAVE to see improvement at wide receiver. And defensively, Kentucky has to figure out a way to pressure the o-backfield. They just don't do it well. At all.
As for highlights, I don't think there's any question that the win at Louisville tops the list. That was a fun day!!!
GBB!!!
Going forward, Kentucky REALLY needs a playmaker at QB. Stoops has never had one. We HAVE to see improvement at wide receiver. And defensively, Kentucky has to figure out a way to pressure the o-backfield. They just don't do it well. At all.
As for highlights, I don't think there's any question that the win at Louisville tops the list. That was a fun day!!!
GBB!!!
Hey, Eric, we missed the pregame write-up for the bowl.
Glad to see your still on the right side of the ground.
Glad to see your still on the right side of the ground.
Where's the info he'll get an extension with 7 wins? News to me. I just think he won't be let go at seven.
That's what happens when despite significant recruiting improvements many opponents still have better players - combined with some game day coaching screw ups.
This hasn't been mentioned yet, but ought to be. UK's roster keeps getting better. It's relevant to state here that the lowest lows of the Mark Stoops era mainly came at the beginning, while the brightest spots mainly came in the last 2 years. That's called successful program building. A lot of people who post here seem to confuse losses (albeit, a decreasing number of losses) with a lack of progress. Those people think week to week. I try to think year to year. Progress is being made. It may not satisfy everyone, but it beats the hell out of going 2-10.
He gets an extra year added on to his contract after 7 wins, correct? That bar is set FAR too low.
He now has coached the longest stretch in UK Football history without an increase in losses or decrease in wins, year-over-year.
I think only one other FBS program can say the same, and I'm pretty sure it's New Mexico State, with a UK Alum coaching there..
By extending his contract one year for 7 wins it enables him to recruit under stable conditions. IOW, let's say he won 7 last year and only 6 next year without the extension. He would then be going into the last two years of his contract with a LOT of speculation that he would still be here for those recruits and uncertainty in recruiting is a killer.
Good Lord I remember when it took 3 seasons to put 7 wins together.
Excellent post Blue Decade...
Excellent post Blue Decade...
The way I'm reading what is reported...the extra 7 win extended his contract to 2023. I quoted a snippet from after he beat Vanderbilt for that 7th win.
1. I'd argue he's already got a contract that is guaranteed from 2018 - 2022...the kids he is recruiting would be able to feel like their 4 years at UK Stoops is under contract...so there wasn't a need to extend it for recruiting purposes.
2. I'm not sure if I'm reading the contract accurately...but the man basically gets automatic escalators for the foreseable future and all of this after being at UK 5 years already. So the way I read it...if he hits 7 wins Stoops will basically have a perpetual 5 year contract with UK into perpetuity.....
I'm not arguing for a second that Stoops should be on hot seat...but he's also not done the job at UK that deserves something that resembles this level of $$$ and years. But Mitch is sort of got a history of tossing out the $$$ at UK with the lone exception of Guy Morris decision.
"As for Stoops, an amendment to his contract this past March added two years to the deal, taking it through June 30, 2022. His scheduled pay for those two years continued the contract’s previous setup of giving him a $250,000 raise annually.
The amendment also included a provision under which the agreement would be extended automatically by one year after any season in which the team wins at least seven, but no more than nine, games, including postseason games. A season with 10 or more wins, including postseason games, would result in an automatic two-year extension."
Why even bring escalate into this? I didn't ask you to read my mind. I didn't ask about past extensions.
So Ole Miss, U6, Fla, MSU this season were not low spots? The U6 game was one of the most embarrassing performances ive ever seen. I think BP has developed a soft spot. They could have scored 80 I think.
Well, when you ONLY win 6 games once over a 6 year period maybe that's where your shame should be.
Did you even read my scenario you quoted? Under my scenario Stoops WOULD NOT be under a perpetual 5 year contract as he would not have won 7 to get that year extension.
Again, if Stoops had won 7 this year without the auto extension and won 6 next year he most certainly WOULD NOT be in any danger of losing his job at UK at the end of next season but it could create uncertainty with rival teams saying he is on the hot seat.
At the end of next season, UK will not be recruiting for the 2019 season as that class would be nearly complete, they WILL BE recruiting for the 2020 season so my example is valid. Mitch certainly wouldn't want to talk extension after a six win season and Stoops contract would then only be until 2022 (just through the 2021 season) without the extension. Given that, he would be attempting to recruit his 2020 class that will be here through at least the 2024 season so, if you are following, rival coaches could use the uncertainty that Stoops MIGHT NOT be there for the kids he is trying to persuade to come to UK. Ya dig?
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So? You act like it's solely coming out of your pocket.
Here's a fun exercise. Check and see how many 7 win seasons UK football has accomplished in it's illustrious history and then get back to me if you think a $250K bonus isn't warranted based on your findings.
1. So if Stoops takes a step back in wins next year....he still has guaranteed money for 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022 and 2023....it just doesn't make sense UK is on hook in his 7th year for 5 more years. The Stoops contract has always been completely one sided
2. You state is such a crazy high bar for UK coaches to win 7 games and not many have done it...
4 of the last 6 coaches at UK have had 7 win seasons and some in eras with 11 game schedules. (Brooks did it 4 times, Mumme, Morris and Claiborne).
3. I'd hope that in a coaches 6th year.....we'd not depend on recruiting to look at the longevity of the coaches remaining contract but instead at his accomplishments at the schools he's been at for 6 years.
The stoops contract is one sided, but we’re Kentucky. We HAVE to sell out to get anyone of note to stay herez that’s the way it is.
Stoops isn’t winning a title ever and we know that. Stoops is here to establish a culture of winning so the NEXT guy or even the guy after that WANTS to come here because he can take us to that next level.
Becoming a blue blood in football takes decades. Stoops is the building block, not the final touch.
Stoops isn’t winning a title ever and we know that. Stoops is here to establish a culture of winning so the NEXT guy or even the guy after that WANTS to come here because he can take us to that next level.
Becoming a blue blood in football takes decades. Stoops is the building block, not the final touch.
Highs (accomplishments): win over UL and first ever trip to Gator Bowl; 9-9 record vs. SEC/UL last two years; 4 straight wins over USC; win over Tennessee in 2017; multiple road wins last two or three seasons
Lows (no particular order): First game out of the box, badly outcoached and outmanned vs. Western; a miracle to avoid a loss to Eastern (!!!) in year three of the Stoops era; and damn near lost again last season to EKU and Eastern Michigan; the incredible meltdown vs. Southern Miss; the absolute beatdown administered by UL last year
Well let's look another very likely scenario. Let's say Stoops spend the rest of his time here achieving a 7 win season every 4th or 5th year and wins 1 or 2 games the in between years. He would still basically end up with a never ending contract that we are left on the hook for. Now if you give him an extra year for every consecutive 7 win season then that would be different but winning 7 game only once, hell our worst coaches were able to do that. Bill Curry didn't quite get to 7 wins but he did get 6 and was a Marty Moore fumble away from achieving the very results required by this contract. And he was probably the worst coach we've ever had.
Beside coaching contracts do not establish stability. That's an old myth. Even really good coaches get bought out of contracts. Besides how many of our recruits do you believe actually know the terms of Stoops' deal? Winning games is the only thing that generates stability. Coaching contracts should be structured solely to promote successful coaches and make it easier to get rid of unsuccessful ones. Throwing around huge buyouts and extended terms just for recruiting is not wise. Huge buyouts and extended terms should only be merit based.
This 2 and 10 stuff needs to stop. You are comparing the low point to Stoops' high point. It doesn't work that way. The norm for UK football has been 5 to 6 wins and yes 7 wins is better but not by the margins you are suggesting. We were always going to improve on the 2-10 season no matter what. We could have kept Joker and would have likely ended up winning atleast 5 games a year by now. I was one of Joker's loudest critics at the time and he clearly needed to go but even if we didn't get rid of him it would have gotten better than 2-10. Using that season as the baseline by which Stoops is judged is ridiculous.
And let's not kid ourselves about the schedule difference. This year's team wouldn't have won 7 games if we had to play a 11 win South Carolina or a 9 win Vandy team.
Honestly, IMO, the 2016 team was better (after the first two or three games), than the 2017 team was at any point all year, although they ended up the season with the same record. It will be really interesting to see how much we improve this fall.
On one hand, I’m excited about the improved roster. This upcoming season will undoubtedly be the most talented roster in my adult life.
On the other hand, I hope to see some of the egregious coaching mistakes mitigated. Examples; Florida, U6, Vandy last year. Also, I hate how we never come out ready to play. Seemed like we always came out flat, dug a hole, then fought back. Would love to see this resolved.
A lot of opportunity this upcoming season
On the other hand, I hope to see some of the egregious coaching mistakes mitigated. Examples; Florida, U6, Vandy last year. Also, I hate how we never come out ready to play. Seemed like we always came out flat, dug a hole, then fought back. Would love to see this resolved.
A lot of opportunity this upcoming season
I'm fairly certain you don't understand the concept. Stoops contract is currently until June 2023 which means it's only thru the 2022 season so let's follow your scenario.
2018 he wins 1 or 2 = no extension and contract still expires after 2022 season
2019 he wins 1 or 2 = no extension and contract still expires after 2022 season
2020 he wins 1 or 2 = no extension and contract still expires after 2022 season (if he is still HC, and that's a big if)
2021 he wins 7 his contract would be extended through the 2023 season
etc.
So as you can plainly see:
1) It would be very unlikely he would still be coach and
2) His contract wouldn't just keep extending
3) I don't know what other type stability you're referencing but having more than a couple of years left on a contract promotes stability in recruiting - as I stated. It removes an arrow from the quiver of rival recruiters and you can be certain they know the contractual time of Stoops and anyone else they are recruiting against and will use it to their advantage by pointing it out to potential signees. That contract stability also enables the retention of a stable, capable staff.
4) Nothing would prevent Mitch from buying out Stoops at any point going forward if he wanted to.
No, four seasons. If he doesn't win 7 this coming year his contract wouldn't be extended which is now currently through the 2022 season. It runs out June of 2023.
7 wins is a milestone for UK and its coaches. Bear Bryant won 7 or more six times during his 8 year stay in Lexington. Since then, UK has won more than 6 exactly 12 times in those 64 years. That's 19% of the time and one third of those were done by Brooks as you stated. Brooks and Bryant are the only two since 1946 to have had 7 or more wins in more than half of the seasons they coached. If you take out Brooks tenure then that feat has only happened 8 of the remaining 57 years which means it has occurred 14% of the time or 1 out of every 7 seasons.
Blanton Collier 8 seasons, one 6+ win season
Charlie Bradshaw 7 seasons, NO 6+ win season
John Ray 4 seasons, NO 6+ win season
Fran Curci 9 seasons, two 6+ win season
Jerry Claiborne 8 seasons, one 6+ win season
Bill Curry 7 seasons, NO 6+ win season
Hal Mumme 4 seasons, one 6+ win season
Guy Morris 2 seasons, one 6+ win season
Rich Brooks 7 seasons, four 6+ win season
Joker Phillips 3 seasons, NO 6+ win season
Mark Stoops 5 seasons, two 6+ win season
IOW, only 3 of the 11 coaches since Bear Bryant left have been able to coach at least 2 or more 7 or more wins in a season. Fran Curci, Rich Brooks and Mark Stoops. Stoops may not ever win another game but at this point in his UK tenure he has won 7 or more 40% of the time and that is better than anyone not named Bryant or Brooks although Guy Morris did win 7 once in his two years in a very small sample size.
Yawn - a typical fan site article written by a typical fan. In fact, I find many discussions on this board to be far more interesting and relevant to UK football.
I won't argue with the author's "highs and lows" over the Stoops "era". But the meat of the article for value and discussion are in his "conclusions".
Have the "bad times" really been far outweighed by the good?
Is the program "back to respectability"? Does the future look "bright"?
Yes, there have been back to back bowl appearances over the past 2 years but I think some perspective and relevance is required. To that end, there have been 80 and 78 teams making bowl appearances over the past 2 years. That is 60% of the teams playing FBS football!
Recruiting (in terms of scouting service rankings) has certainly improved in the Stoops' era. But is it "true SEC level talent"? Will "big-boy football be played in Lexington this fall"?
And I am not criticizing UK...just the article.![[winking]](http://l.yimg.com/j/assets/img/emoticons/classic/wink.r191677.gif "Winking [winking]")
Peace
I won't argue with the author's "highs and lows" over the Stoops "era". But the meat of the article for value and discussion are in his "conclusions".
Have the "bad times" really been far outweighed by the good?
Is the program "back to respectability"? Does the future look "bright"?
Yes, there have been back to back bowl appearances over the past 2 years but I think some perspective and relevance is required. To that end, there have been 80 and 78 teams making bowl appearances over the past 2 years. That is 60% of the teams playing FBS football!
Recruiting (in terms of scouting service rankings) has certainly improved in the Stoops' era. But is it "true SEC level talent"? Will "big-boy football be played in Lexington this fall"?
And I am not criticizing UK...just the article.
Peace
Unfortunately yes, but I don't ever remember a game where a team didn't have to punt and and I thought they could have scored 60-70 if BP wanted.
I think the biggest low of the Stoops era has to be the Florida game this past season where he handed them 2 TD's by not covering a wide receiver. The 30 yr streak would have ended and the team would have huge momentum and that might have helped us beat Miss. and gone to a much better bowl..that was the biggest gaffe I have ever seen. Hope Stoops gets it right this year. if not I am ready for a change. Was a big fan of his early on.
