Have we seen the end of the platoons?

[EnglandWildcat]

Cal always said he would reevaluate after 10-12 games. We made it 13 still (sort of) platooning. Tonight, we essentially saw a classic 8-man rotation, with Marcus Lee only seeing 1 minute and Dom and Derek not seeing any time.

Perhaps it will be resurrected if we are blowing someone out, but I think it may be coming to an end.

Thoughts?

 

[sonnyg333]

I was hoping see this post as with every game so far...The answer is no, just like Cal has said every day he has a mic in front of him and I believe him.

 

[C1180]

Cal will play what ever way gives his team the best chance to win. Sometimes that will be the platoon system sometimes it will not be the platoon system.

Losing Poythress IMO has made it very difficult to continue with the platoon system.

 

[UK90]

Maybe not completely, but for the most part, yeah I think it is on the way out.

We've been gradually moving away with it ever since Poy's injury, and tonight there was really no hint of it all. Cal just substituted a very conventional 8 man rotation tonight, and that's the direction I think we'll continue to go.

The platoon thing was a fun December storyline, but it ain't well suited for March.

 

[caneintally]

LOL can we stop it . We will platoon in any game we are not in a dogfight. The last 2 were too close to do it but 90% of the rest of the season we will as Cal as said .

 

[5iveStarRecruit]

Put it like this : If the game is close, Lee will sit unless he shows something in the first minutes.

He's so raw, he doesn't have Cal's trust. Dom and Derek will only got mop up duty.

 

[kats23]

Yes UK will platoon and platoon but I think you saw who Cal trusts at the end of the game when plays need to get made. You will continue to see that in close games. Hawkins and Willis haven't been seen in the last few games. They are victory cigars

 

[JPScott]

Originally posted by EnglandWildcat:
Cal always said he would reevaluate after 10-12 games. We made it 13 still (sort of) platooning. Tonight, we essentially saw a classic 8-man rotation, with Marcus Lee only seeing 1 minute and Dom and Derek not seeing any time.

Perhaps it will be resurrected if we are blowing someone out, but I think it may be coming to an end.

Thoughts?

My thought is that this game is a good example of why Cal should continue to platoon. The 1st platoon came out great. Granted the 2nd platoon came out flat.

But after that Cal largely abandoned the whole concept for the remainder of the game. And UK struggled for the remainder of the game. Coincidence? I don't think so.

We started to see the old issues we've seen in the past. No inside-out. Settling for three pointers. Fatigue with some players. Some players not getting off the bench. Constant chemistry experimentation by Cal trying to find the right lineup but never really seeing any sense of flow. Erratic defensive pressure, failure to tire out the other team etc. I don't see how that can be blamed on the platoon when it wasn't used after the first six minutes of the game.

My point of view, if Cal wants to abandon the platoon at this point and either shorten the rotation or still use the bench but substitute at will, then we'll see a lot more games like tonight (or like last season for that matter) where the team struggles, than we'll see many blowouts.




This post was edited on 1/6 10:21 PM by JPScott

 

[yoshukai]

I hope not . Platooning IS A BIG REASON this team has such great chemistry !

 

[caneintally]

Great post JP.

 

[Aike]

Originally posted by JPScott:

Originally posted by EnglandWildcat:
Cal always said he would reevaluate after 10-12 games. We made it 13 still (sort of) platooning. Tonight, we essentially saw a classic 8-man rotation, with Marcus Lee only seeing 1 minute and Dom and Derek not seeing any time.

Perhaps it will be resurrected if we are blowing someone out, but I think it may be coming to an end.

Thoughts?

My thought is that this game is a good example of why Cal should continue to platoon. The 1st platoon came out great. Granted the 2nd platoon came out flat.

But after that Cal largely abandoned the whole concept for the remainder of the game. And UK struggled for the remainder of the game. Coincidence? I don't think so.

We started to see the old issues we've seen in the past. No inside-out. Settling for three pointers. Fatigue with some players. Some players not getting off the bench. Constant chemistry experimentation by Cal trying to find the right lineup but never really seeing any sense of flow. Erratic defensive pressure, failure to tire out the other team etc. I don't see how that can be blamed on the platoon when it wasn't used after the first six minutes of the game.

My point of view, if Cal wants to abandon the platoon at this point and either shorten the rotation or still use the bench but substitute at will, then we'll see a lot more games like tonight (or like last season for that matter) where the team struggles, than we'll see many blowouts.




This post was edited on 1/6 10:21 PM by JPScott

Astute observation. Would love to see us get back to rolling teams and wearing them out here in a few days.

 

[Raroyder]

Originally posted by JPScott:

Originally posted by EnglandWildcat:
Cal always said he would reevaluate after 10-12 games. We made it 13 still (sort of) platooning. Tonight, we essentially saw a classic 8-man rotation, with Marcus Lee only seeing 1 minute and Dom and Derek not seeing any time.

Perhaps it will be resurrected if we are blowing someone out, but I think it may be coming to an end.

Thoughts?

My thought is that this game is a good example of why Cal should continue to platoon. The 1st platoon came out great. Granted the 2nd platoon came out flat.

But after that Cal largely abandoned the whole concept for the remainder of the game. And UK struggled for the remainder of the game. Coincidence? I don't think so.

We started to see the old issues we've seen in the past. No inside-out. Settling for three pointers. Fatigue with some players. Some players not getting off the bench. Constant chemistry experimentation by Cal trying to find the right lineup but never really seeing any sense of flow. Erratic defensive pressure, failure to tire out the other team etc. I don't see how that can be blamed on the platoon when it wasn't used after the first six minutes of the game.

My point of view, if Cal wants to abandon the platoon at this point and either shorten the rotation or still use the bench but substitute at will, then we'll see a lot more games like tonight (or like last season for that matter) where the team struggles, than we'll see many blowouts.




This post was edited on 1/6 10:21 PM by JPScott

Bingo! It seems he has a long term vision in mind, and wants to shorten the rotation in preparation for how this team will look in March. There will be growing pains with this change in strategy.

Everyone seems to think that Cal abandons platoons in close games, and that this game was no different. We, and a few others, must have been watching a completely different game tonight. We were in dogfights against Columbia, Buffalo, etc. and have never abandoned this substitution pattern in the first half, aside from obvious foul trouble.

Tonight signified a clear change in philosophy with this team going forward, IMO. We'll see if it works over the long term.

This post was edited on 1/7 1:12 AM by Raroyder

 

[Blueworld_3.0]

From the box score-

Aaron Harrison- 40 min
Wille Cauley0Stein- 39 min
Andrew Harrison- 32 min

Marcus Lee- 1 min

Hard to see the "platoon system" at work here guys, if you define it strictly as 4 or 5 subbed out at a time. .

 

[runt#69]

I'd prefer to think that the advantages Ole Miss took advantage of while Ulis was in there played more into the change in the platoon system this particular game than an overall trend. Not every team is going to have that kind of advantage in guard play to do what Ole Miss did tonight.

 

[.S&C.]

We are not going to ditch the platoon. I think, I KNOW, cal prefers a 7 man rotation but he doesn't have to scrap it. We had some fatigue issues tonight. I haven't seen that in a while. This team is suited now for each player to play certain amounts of minutes. No one on this team really needs to be pushed 35-40 minutes at this point. (Minus a few)

Our defense is usually as good as it is because our team stays very rested and with a spring in their step. Scrap the platoon and you scrap that too.

It's the same game by game, situational, "do it when we can, don't when we can't" thing it was always going to be.

Must we ask this over and over.

This post was edited on 1/7 1:58 AM by .S&C.

 

[caneintally]

Originally posted by Blueworld_3.0:

From the box score-

Aaron Harrison- 40 min
Wille Cauley0Stein- 39 min
Andrew Harrison- 32 min

Marcus Lee- 1 min

Hard to see the "platoon system" at work here guys, if you define it strictly as 4 or 5 subbed out at a time. .

you do realize we all know in tight games it won't be used . But how many tight games will we have really? 5 maybe ?

 

[SilentsAreGolden]

I think at this point Cal has an interest in keeping the platoon narrative going for future recruiting purposes, but he's not going to stick with it when he thinks it's not going to work for a particular game. Apparently, Lee did something either in practice or when he first came in tonight that Cal didn't like. I think we will always see the second group come in after the first 4 mins, and then Cal will decide from there how the game is going.

Most games it will probably go the normal way with both groups playing about the same. In closer games though, he's gonna do what he has been doing lately and sit some people he is unhappy with, or who aren't right for that game. Ulis wasn't hitting, but that is not why he didn't play as much. He was getting overpowered by their guards and Cal couldn't take the hit on defense.

 

[UKWildcats#8]

Originally posted by caneintally:

Originally posted by Blueworld_3.0:

From the box score-

Aaron Harrison- 40 min
Wille Cauley0Stein- 39 min
Andrew Harrison- 32 min

Marcus Lee- 1 min

Hard to see the "platoon system" at work here guys, if you define it strictly as 4 or 5 subbed out at a time. .

you do realize we all know in tight games it won't be used . But how many tight games will we have really? 5 maybe ?

I'll also add that Booker and Ulis were in foul trouble tonight, so that is one reason the Twins played more minutes. Matt Jones also pointed out on the post-game that Ole Miss abused Ulis's size for the first time this season.

 

[.S&C.]

Edit:
This post was edited on 1/7 2:26 AM by .S&C.

 

[michaeluk26]

Excellent post JP.

Like you said, I am afraid if we ditch it that we are going to have more nights like tonight. Stopping the platooning takes away one of our biggest advantages. I really hope tonight is not the way we are going to play the rest of the year because I dont think it will be a good thing for this team.

I actually thing the change of pace each platoon brings to the floor is the biggest reason for our success so far, as it keeps the opposing team off balance for most of the game. It has them thinking to much on offense and a half step slow on defense, the opposing teams I mean.










This post was edited on 1/7 2:27 AM by michaeluk26

 

[JPScott]

Originally posted by caneintally:

you do realize we all know in tight games it won't be used . But how many tight games will we have really? 5 maybe ?

It seems to be a chicken-and-egg question. Is it that Cal abandons the platoon in close games, or is it that abandoning the platoon leads to closer games?

My take on the Mississippi game is that it's the latter. Granted the white platoon came out flat and let Ole Miss score some points but the game really wasn't close until Cal decided to fiddle with the lineups. And despite constant fiddling, UK never pulled away after that but Ole Miss hung with them for the remainder of the game and nearly pulled off the upset.

One advantage of the platoons is that as Michael mentioned above, UK can dictate the pace. The Blue platoon can come in a administer body blows, then the White platoon can come in and push the pace full throttle and go for the knockout. Rinse and repeat. It may not work the first time, or even the second or third time, but after 6-7 rounds of this most opponents will be physically and emotionally beaten. Then if the game is still tight with 8 or less minutes remaining, then Cal can play exclusively the guys who he thinks are playing best that night.

If Cal decides to abandon the platoon system, I expect UK will have a lot more closer games going forward than they otherwise would have.

And to address another comment in this thread, if the point of Camp Cal was to settle on a short rotation in anticipation of March, then that's extremely disappointing. I was hoping (still hoping) that when he talked about the team spending a lot of time scrimmaging 5-on-5, that this meant that Cal was going to open it back up and play two full 5-man platoons to hopefully recapture what was shown to be effective early in the season. (prior to Alex's injury). If instead he's only going to play a short rotation, then that's got to be demoralizing to the guys who are scrimmaging 5-on-5 in practice but not seeing any game time. Not to mention taking away many of the benefits of the platoon which IMO has been what's made this particular team more effective than past teams (despite being not as talented if you only look at the core lineup).






This post was edited on 1/7 7:34 AM by JPScott

 

[BlueCat43]

Originally posted by EnglandWildcat:
Cal always said he would reevaluate after 10-12 games. We made it 13 still (sort of) platooning. Tonight, we essentially saw a classic 8-man rotation, with Marcus Lee only seeing 1 minute and Dom and Derek not seeing any time.

Perhaps it will be resurrected if we are blowing someone out, but I think it may be coming to an end.

Thoughts?

I think what we will see going forward is that we start out platooning and Cal adjusts as the game goes on. If the platooning is working, we stick with it through the game. If it is not we put in the right personnel to win. We did start out the game platooning last night, but the white squad didn't play so well when they came in so they got pulled. By the time it was their turn to come back in it was obvious that this game was going to be one that Cal needed to have whoever was playing best on the court as much as he could and so he went that direction.

 

[know1]

Yep. The end came about game 4.

 

[blubo]

My thought is that this game is a good example of why Cal should continue to platoon. The 1st platoon came out great. Granted the 2nd platoon came out flat.

But after that Cal largely abandoned the whole concept for the remainder of the game. And UK struggled for the remainder of the game. Coincidence? I don't think so.

We started to see the old issues we've seen in the past. No inside-out. Settling for three pointers. Fatigue with some players. Some players not getting off the bench. Constant chemistry experimentation by Cal trying to find the right lineup but never really seeing any sense of flow. Erratic defensive pressure, failure to tire out the other team etc. I don't see how that can be blamed on the platoon when it wasn't used after the first six minutes of the game.

My point of view, if Cal wants to abandon the platoon at this point and either shorten the rotation or still use the bench but substitute at will, then we'll see a lot more games like tonight (or like last season for that matter) where the team struggles, than we'll see many blowouts.



This post was edited on 1/6 10:21 PM by JPScott
For UK Basketball History updates, follow me on Twitter.
€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€. €€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€

i agree. i think things went south after he went away from the platoon. also i still don't understand how our team, with its size and talent, has such a hard time penetrating a zone. i think we may have been outscored in the paint.

 

[St.PatterSoN-54-]

Great post John. I hope that Cal will continue to stay the course with the Platoon. Like a solid running game that wears down a defensive line, the true effects of the Platoon system may not be realized until the 2nd half.

STAY THE COURSE, CAL!!!

 

[UK90]

Originally posted by Blueworld_3.0:

From the box score-

Aaron Harrison- 40 min
Wille Cauley0Stein- 39 min
Andrew Harrison- 32 min

Marcus Lee- 1 min

Hard to see the "platoon system" at work here guys, if you define it strictly as 4 or 5 subbed out at a time. .

Exactly. Absolutely nothing "platoonish" about how Cal substituted last night. Just a normal 8 man rotation with a few guys carrying the heaviest load.

And that's the direction Cal's been gradually moving for several games now. A pattern likely to continue, given the way Cal always tightens the rotation late in the season. By March the whole platoon thing may be no more than an early season memory.

 

[Aike]

I think that what last night showed us is that when things get tight, Cal will have a tendency to revert back to what he is comfortable with - what he has seen work time and again.

The pre-conference schedule, in the scheme of things, doesn't matter much. It matters some, but Cal always says, "we will lose games." This season we didn't. Cal had the players on a much longer leash in pre-conference, partly because he was more OK with losing as a learning experience.

In conference play, things are different. No way Cal is going to sacrifice the first home game on the slate to a middle of the pack team and dig a hole from day one. No way.

Now it could be argued that had he continued to platoon he wouldn't have sacrificed a thing. I actually agree with this, but it is clear that Cal was dancing with the girl who's brought him through a quarter century of coaching.

Above all else, it boils down to trust. Right now Cal doesn't trust Marcus Lee to be on the floor in crucial situations. I hope Lee earns Cal's trust back.

We can still win a championship playing 8 guys, but our margin for error becomes much more thin. My hope is that we see a return to the form that has carried us so far this season.

 

[BlueSince92]

Imho whether we platoon in tight games will continue to depend on why the games are tight.

Last night the white platoon got blitzkrieged. Then by the time blue came back in Ole Miss was scoring and defending against even them effortlessly. The real value of platooning in an individual game (I mean as opposed to keeping everyone happy and helping with long-term chemistry) is the extra effort opponents spend going against ten fresh legs. But when an oppenent is outplaying us with no apparent effort and doing it against both squads, after trying some sidelines coaching Cal will eventually start mixing the squads to where even if they're still outscoring us it seems to be costing them some effort.

That's the way things have looked to me each time we've gone away from platooning.

If that's true then the question I guess becomes, even if they seem to be scoring effortlessly against our fresh legs, how much of that is adrenaline and how long can they sustain it and will they really crash afterwards and if so how far down will we be if they do. One suspicion I have is that Cal got burned in our '11 FF game with UConn by keeping Josh on the bench too long after he picked up his third. We made up a lot of ground after he came in again, but not quite enough to win. So now Cal is a little more likely to favor success in the near term. And that's why we've seen platoons get nixed eight or ten minutes in. All just my theories.

 

[jameslee32]

More mins for some did not equal better execution at all. Keep the platoons. Keep 'em fresh and hungry.

 

[caneintally]

i feel confident saying two things - the platooning is here to stay and when it is close the platooning will be thrown out the window. I do wonder as JP Said if that is the right way to play it but i think Cal will do what feels comfortable and that is playing 6-7 . But i doubt if more then once every 2 weeks we get a close game . For example i think we beat A&M by 25 and Missouri by 35. at Bama might be a 8 pt win so we might not platoon the last 5 minutes of the game. Vandy we beat by 30. you get the drift.

 

[RondoBaller21]

we have been done with platooning ever since Poythress got hurt. Theyre better off without it

 

[sonnyg333]

Cals own definition of platooning is five in and five out, if some don't play hard or is a bad match-up they don't play...We are and will continue platooning...