Florida's talent level
- Thread starter .S&C.
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I'm sure someone can give you the run down on recruiting rankings and five/ four/ three star players on each team. However its not significant enough for either team to have a clear advantage. They might be slightly more talented but UK has plenty of talent and a strong competitive roster.
That's what I'm hoping. It seems like even when we are good, out talent drop and speed effect us.
Florida is as down as they have been in recent memory.
1 yr coach
Game is in UK
Stoops is in 3rd yr of rebuilding program at UK and has UK on the upward trend and 2-0 with win over Carolina.
Its early in the season so with a 1st yr coach that helps UK even more.
If we cant snap the streak tomorrow we may never.
UK 30 UF 24
1 yr coach
Game is in UK
Stoops is in 3rd yr of rebuilding program at UK and has UK on the upward trend and 2-0 with win over Carolina.
Its early in the season so with a 1st yr coach that helps UK even more.
If we cant snap the streak tomorrow we may never.
UK 30 UF 24
*Kentucky, IMO, is more talented than Florida at the offensive skill positions.
*Both teams have mediocre offensive lines. You could probably give either team the edge.
*The Gators are better in the secondary and along the d-line.
As always, Florida has good football players. People forget though, they lost a lot off of last years team. EIGHT Gators were taken in the NFL draft. That was third most in the country.
GBB!!!
*Both teams have mediocre offensive lines. You could probably give either team the edge.
*The Gators are better in the secondary and along the d-line.
As always, Florida has good football players. People forget though, they lost a lot off of last years team. EIGHT Gators were taken in the NFL draft. That was third most in the country.
GBB!!!
I'm not sure you could call Kentucky's offensive line mediocre. Running backs collectively averaging 8.35 yards per carry, that should be enough to detract negative labels. Florida's offensive line has been wildly unimpressive though. Even ECU could live in Florida's backfield. Florida's offensive line is also the youngest, most inexperienced o-line in the SEC.
UK is better offensively at every position except Robinson. UF is better defensively at all 3 levels, right now.
I would agree with this but we do have a few guys that would start for Uf on D. Will that be enough to stop them is the big question.
What game this year are you basing that comment on... Maybe the three overtime game last year at Florida? I think we're better than then, but I don't think Florida is....
I think UK can hold their own in the secondary, even with the return of their superman... I don't think they have a good QB to get the ball to their receivers like Towles... I don't think their receivers are better than ours.. Just as athletic maybe, but not as polished... So, I would take our back field over their back field, given all the things that I said.....
Based on perceived talent, best on paper, which is derived from recruiting rankings, Florida is 4.1 times more athletic than UK based upon current players rankings.
Look at the rankings:
FL KY
Freshmen Class 2015 20 43
Sophomore Class 2014 6 20
Junior Class 2013 2 36
Senior Class 2012 3 63
Redshirt 2011 12 62
FL recruit ranking averages around 10th while we are 41.
It is obvious we are closing the gap with CMS. When looking at just the last 3 years, FL's lead is only 2.3 times better with a ratio of FL average ranking of 11 and UK 27. Great gains, but still a large disparity.
Of course this isn't scientific as attrition occurs, players go pro, transfer out and in, injuries, etc.
We have a ways to go, we are on the right track, how is it that we played them so well last year?
What if we win tomorrow? They have a clear talent edge.
Better coaching?
Better execution?
Better football players?
We most likely never catch FL on the recruiting ranking simply because of their fertile home state but there is no doubt we can outplay them
Look at the rankings:
FL KY
Freshmen Class 2015 20 43
Sophomore Class 2014 6 20
Junior Class 2013 2 36
Senior Class 2012 3 63
Redshirt 2011 12 62
FL recruit ranking averages around 10th while we are 41.
It is obvious we are closing the gap with CMS. When looking at just the last 3 years, FL's lead is only 2.3 times better with a ratio of FL average ranking of 11 and UK 27. Great gains, but still a large disparity.
Of course this isn't scientific as attrition occurs, players go pro, transfer out and in, injuries, etc.
We have a ways to go, we are on the right track, how is it that we played them so well last year?
What if we win tomorrow? They have a clear talent edge.
Better coaching?
Better execution?
Better football players?
We most likely never catch FL on the recruiting ranking simply because of their fertile home state but there is no doubt we can outplay them
You might, not sure who it would be, LB maybe if one is out. Their secondary might be best in conference.
I think you're looking at a push when comparing Garrett Johnson and Demarcus Robinson, but outside of that, I like UK's entire offense over UF's. I also think defensively, UK's safeties may be better than Florida's, but UF has the edge at every other position on defense maybe. I think Westry could compete for a starting spot in their CB's. Kid is a tremendous talent. Hatcher may be able to as well. Forrest would have a shot if they needed a good pass coverage linebacker, which they lack on that defense.
Well, we're only talking about talent right? Take the OL for example, Florida's OL is young, for sure, but LT Sharpe is I think a future NFL first rounder, RT Halter was a FCS all-american prior to transferring, and true frosh Ivey who's returning from injuries has been arguably the most impressive lineman of them all.
At receiver there's Robinson, he put up like 200 yards on you guys last year, but the rest are unproven at best, so Kentucky has an edge there.
QB Grier is very talented, HS national player of the year and stuff, though obviously Towles is also very talented. Grier, though, is deadly accurate and has a lightening quick release, and I think that's more important for a QB than a couple more inches and a lot more lbs. (Again, only talking talent here, not experience)
RB Pretty talented group, but only average for a SEC team, while Kentucky's group is probably in the upper echelons of the SEC, so an edge to Kentucky
TE The youngsters Goolsby and Lewis have made tons of big plays the past 2 weeks, and McGee was UVA's leading receiver prior to transferring. Lewis is out this week, but I'd still think an edge to Florida
DL Both teams lost quite a few here, but there's so much talent on Florida's DL. It runs legit 10-man deep, and Collins likes to rotate all of them in (about 3 series for each). I think an edge to Florida here especially considering depth.
LB Florida is thin, but very talented there. Morrison and Davis each got 12 tackles last game, both will play in the league. Powell is undersized but very fast. Losing Anzalone really hurts an already thin group, while Kentucky gets Hatcher back, I'm not familiar with the rest of the UK LBs so I can't really make the call on the overall group here.
DB UK has one of their better DB groups in recent memory, but Florida's group is probably the best since 2009. Hargreaves and Tabor are on the level of Joe Haden and Janoris Jenkins, and Quincy Wilson has been neck-to-neck with Tabor, splitting starter reps opposite of Hargreaves since last year when both were true frosh. Nickel back Poole is an all around prospect, was #5 CB in the nation coming out of HS. Wilson and Poole probably would start at half of the SEC teams, but they're playing behind Hargreaves and Tabor at Florida. FS Neal, who's coming back this week, will be an enforcer at the safety spot, he has excellent size at 6'1 216, but also good speed, surprisingly fluid hips, and a knack for the ball. He made some key mistakes in last year's game as a sophomore 1st year starter, but he also showed off his ball skills with 2 picks. Maye is a very solid safety as well, plays well all around, sound tackler, though a bit stiff in coverage, a solid SEC caliber starter.
I think Robinson would start for any team in the SEC, he is the one player I said UF had who could start at UK on offense and you won't to argue he couldn't, lol, whatever man. No, I don't think either of UK's cb would start at UF, Hargraves is in a league of his own and the other one is very good and has experience on Westerly, Hargraves is good enough to give UF's secondary the edge, Stamps is pretty good and as of now is the best all around UK secondary guy, maybe not most talented but heady and more experienced. I never said every position, I said every level and you name 1 or 2 guys who might be able to start at a level, that is not what I said. I said the level was better, which means the entire unit. Other teams have good players too and Muschamp could recruit defensive guys, offensive guys ran from him like he had the black plague. LSU, OM and Bama are the only teams who can put more talent on the field defensively that UF in the SEC and UF plays 2 of them this year, lol.
According to one list (Fox Sports - Walter Football)
UF has the following pro prospects this year:
#1 and #15 corner back
#7 and #12 and #16 safety prospects - AJ Stamps was #10
#16 ILB
#17 OLB
#12 3-4 DE
Melvin Lewis is #10 NT
#14 DT (M Lewis also mention here at #20)
#12 DE (same player as their #14 DT) Hatcher is listed at #22
Patrick is the #8 QB
#10 RB
#6 WR
Swindle is the #24 OT
This is pretty telling. I admire our fans who believe in our kids, but we are still a ways away. We do have coaching and solid football players. We can still win.
I'm really looking forward to seeing these projections the next two years as only Juniors and Seniors are eligible to go pro.
UF has the following pro prospects this year:
#1 and #15 corner back
#7 and #12 and #16 safety prospects - AJ Stamps was #10
#16 ILB
#17 OLB
#12 3-4 DE
Melvin Lewis is #10 NT
#14 DT (M Lewis also mention here at #20)
#12 DE (same player as their #14 DT) Hatcher is listed at #22
Patrick is the #8 QB
#10 RB
#6 WR
Swindle is the #24 OT
This is pretty telling. I admire our fans who believe in our kids, but we are still a ways away. We do have coaching and solid football players. We can still win.
I'm really looking forward to seeing these projections the next two years as only Juniors and Seniors are eligible to go pro.
I can't argue with this. It was even worse last year. With all due respect, how did we get within a blown call of winning at the swamp? What possible excuse is there for Florida if they lose?
Muschamp mostly. I honestly thought we were gonna lose. The winning streak vs. Kentucky was the only long streak he didn't break. Under Muschamp we lost to a FCS team for the first time ever, we lost to Vandy for the first time in 20-something years (also the first home loss to Vandy since 1945), and we missed a bowl game for the first time in 20-something years. The last 20+ year streak we had was the win over Kentucky, and I thought it was only fitting he'd break that too.
We also had a shaky secondary in the first half the year, as we started true freshman Tabor at CB, true sophomore Neal at FS, and senior and never a SEC caliber player Gorman at SS. Neal and Gorman combined to give up 3 big plays for 14 of Kentucky's 20 points in regulation. Gorman kinda just faded away over the course of the season as then sophomores Neal and Maye began to take over looking like stars.
Thanks for providing the other side's perspective.
Has the new staff had enough time coach them up enough? I provided a lot of Florida friendly data that should have resulted in a much easier win over ECU. McElwain was pretty upset after this most recent game.
I'm not arguing that Robinson wouldn't start for UK lol. Teams typically have more than one receiver on the field.
And I didn't argue much about UF being better at every level defensively, outside of maybe the safety position.
i know uf has more talent than us but they did get beat by scar at home last year. given how we looked talent wise in the scar game i think it's close even where uf has the advantages save a few spots. it's not like they have a 10 and we have a 5... it's more like uf has a bunch of 8's and a few 9's or 10's and we have a bunch of 7's and several 8's.
also, the matchups are very important. it doesn't really matter if hatcher is better than uf's olb'er. what matters is can he beat his man and cover their guy on a more consistent basis than uf's guy can cover our TE and beat our OT? their db's deserve every bit of praise they get but i still want to how they match up with us, and im not saying they cant. who do they put on the larger baker? who covers badet and juice? are they gonna cover timmons and the rb's with lber's? can their lb'er cover conrad (boy would this be a great game for him to breakout, lol)? this is what i love about dawson's offense... we gonna find matchups that we can win. if that means letting hargreaves take out whoever he's covering then so be it... or if the other guy is that good let 'em take garrett and baker out of the game and we'll work with baker, timmons, and badet and force them to change something..... hopefully. lol
coaching is probably the biggest thing in this game. i admit i know very little about mac but i know our staff is about as good as we've ever had. they put these guys in positions to make plays and stoops is one of the best defensive minds in college football per herbstreit. stoops has been in the sec for a while now and knows the talent he's gonna face and like i said, i just dont know much about mac.
also, the matchups are very important. it doesn't really matter if hatcher is better than uf's olb'er. what matters is can he beat his man and cover their guy on a more consistent basis than uf's guy can cover our TE and beat our OT? their db's deserve every bit of praise they get but i still want to how they match up with us, and im not saying they cant. who do they put on the larger baker? who covers badet and juice? are they gonna cover timmons and the rb's with lber's? can their lb'er cover conrad (boy would this be a great game for him to breakout, lol)? this is what i love about dawson's offense... we gonna find matchups that we can win. if that means letting hargreaves take out whoever he's covering then so be it... or if the other guy is that good let 'em take garrett and baker out of the game and we'll work with baker, timmons, and badet and force them to change something..... hopefully. lol
coaching is probably the biggest thing in this game. i admit i know very little about mac but i know our staff is about as good as we've ever had. they put these guys in positions to make plays and stoops is one of the best defensive minds in college football per herbstreit. stoops has been in the sec for a while now and knows the talent he's gonna face and like i said, i just dont know much about mac.
Not really enough time, most Florida fans don't expect a big turnaround, though most do expect some improvement. Florida didn't play particularly well vs. ECU, but the drop off from Hargreaves and Neal to their replacements is pretty big, considering they're our best CB and best S respectively. With that said, I think all sensible Florida fans will agree, going into this game, this seems to be the most likely time for Kentucky to break the streak.
IMO, the key will Florida's QB play. Muschamp's biggest downfall was his poor handling of the QB situation. If Grier can limit mistakes, he's got the talent to be the biggest difference for Florida from last year to this.
All football coach's want speed as they say speed kills. Florida has routinely been the faster more talented team. One of the first things Mclwain will do is test us on the outside. If they can get outside and cut the corners then it will be a long day. On offense I look for Shannon Dawson to try and wear down the Gators defense by going straight at their front 3-4. If our O-line can create a hole that allows Boom and company to get to the linebackers then we are in business. The key is to force the Gators to add a safety or corner in the box. If they do or they come out already lined up that way " which means they want Patrick too prove he can beat them" then Patty Ice will need Juice Johnson and Dorian to go across the middle about 15 to 20 yards deep where the hole will be. One of the keys will be Vernon Hargreaves an all american corner who comes into the game banged up. He never liked contact much anyway, I would force him to make some tackles and get him into the action. My guess is if he's forced into the action then he'll be on the side line and then the Gators get very average on pass coverage?
I have to agree with the Florida fan, as far as raw talent goes, comparing UK to Florida is like comparing apples (not very great ones) to oranges. I like to just list the four stars for comparisons, too involved to go through the whole recruiting classes. The past five years, even with bad teams, Florida still easily outrecruits us on paper, even what was probably our best class ever in 14.
The past five years:
2011 UK ONE four star, Faulkner, out with injury. Florida, ELEVEN four stars.
2012 UK ONE four star, (hope he is great tonight, think he will be) Towles, Florida "only" ten four stars, but three FIVE stars.
2013 UK three four stars, one JC drafted, Florida FOURTEEN four stars and two FIVE stars (Hargraves one)
2014 UK ten four stars, most ever by far, Florida TWELVE, still better, with one five star.
2015 UK two four stars, Conrad playing so far, Florida only five, but still TWO five stars, Anzolone out but the five star OL Ivey their best per the visitor. Our best raw talent OL is probably a true freshman, but was a three star.
So, players possibly still around from the past five years, UK seventeen four stars, Florida FIFTY TWO, but also EIGHT five stars, players like Hargraves and Swanson.
Interesting to me to see their recruiting under Joker in 13 and 14, TWENTY SIX four stars in two years, with three FIVE stars, and two of their receivers in 13 were 6.0s, including Robinson. I wonder if UK with their in state talent, the atrocious facilities (recruiting room), tradition, and support from the AD had anything to do with his recruiting (or Brooks) at UK.
Fortunately raw talent is just one piece of the puzzle, UK beat USC and played NC Auburn to a three point loss in 10 (when Kentucky had ZERO four stars in state) when UK had two JC four stars playing, and their SEC schedule averaged 39 four star commits in four years (USC 38) minus Vandy but including the two Misses.
Sorry, but worth repeating, incredible disparity, thanks to UK's football support in large part in the past. It does look like that era has passed, but still a huge disparity to overcome, I think we have the coaches to do it, even with a much more talented (raw talent) Florida team. Could be a cliffhanger though. I am putting my money on UK.
Hope this gives you a rundown on the raw talent, but no, they aren't just "slightly" more talented as far as raw talent goes.
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And I clearly said UK's offense except for Robinson. I don't count S as a position, I count the entire secondary as the third level of the defense, LB as 2nd and DL aa 1. Stamps could start for them, but he doesn't make up the advantage UF has a CB right now so I gave their secondary an edge. The question is this, is UK's offense good enough to overcome their defense and I think they are. Unless UF's offense has improved more than I think, I don't think its good enough to score enough points against UK's defense. That still doesn't change my thinking UF's defense isn't better at all 3 levels, it means I think the UK wins the matchup of their offense against UF's defense by a bigger margin than UF's offense can against UK's defense. I think Gier will be a good qb down the road, but don't think his time is here yet. WIth that said, I wish either of the three was the qb at UGA, we are just awful at the position and have been too years.
Jauk, I am sure the lack of facilities hurt UK's recruiting, kids today are all about the bling. But I think the perception, right or wrong, was UK didn't really care about football. I think it was probably correct with the administration, not the fans. Has there ever been a corner cut for UK's basketball program? It's why UGA's basketball program is so bad, no one in administration cares about it, we play home games in an old livestock barn for crying out loud. But the recent focus of improving UK's football facilities, addition of a better coaching staff have resulted in UK's recruiting taking off. But I don't think it would have jumped as much as it has if not for both of those things. We are the last team without an indoor practice facility, which is changing as soon as the season is over. a 140 yard by 80 yard and 65 feet tall on campus facility that is going to have a brick and glass sides because of a by law it has to fit into the architectual scheme of the campus. Going to basically double the cost at over 30 mil.
There are SO many good HS players these days and these kids usually physically mature while in college.
It's very obvious that our coaches are very good evaluating kids and projecting how good they will become on college.
Florida hasn't looked more talented on the field than teams like Missouri.
Recruiting numbers matter, but not like they used to...
There's just too many good HS players out there and players rankings are not an exact science.
Also, I think that HS players from Florida may get a little more respect than players from states like Ohio.
Florida is more talented, but a good QB and good team chemistry can cancel a lot of that out.
It's very obvious that our coaches are very good evaluating kids and projecting how good they will become on college.
Florida hasn't looked more talented on the field than teams like Missouri.
Recruiting numbers matter, but not like they used to...
There's just too many good HS players out there and players rankings are not an exact science.
Also, I think that HS players from Florida may get a little more respect than players from states like Ohio.
Florida is more talented, but a good QB and good team chemistry can cancel a lot of that out.
Good post. UK probably has an advantage with coaching continuity also. And we think (and hope) our coaches are not just excellent recruiters.
It's kinda funny that so many people obsess over stars when talking about our recruiting. Then a game like this comes along, and people think there isn't a talent gap. LOL! That's goofy. According to Rivals, Florida's class was #3 in the country in 2012, #4 in 2013, #8 in 2014, and #23 in 2015. Hell yes, there is a talent gap. But stars don't win football games. Points on the scoreboard win games. Kentucky has a good shot to win today because the game is in Lexington, we have a better quarterback and passing game, and Florida is going through a coaching transition. Because of all these factors, confidence and momentum are on Kentucky's side for as long as those fleeting factors are maintained. In other words, we have to play 4 solid quarters of football and be opportunistic. As for the future, Kentucky's recruiting momentum is in the positive direction, whereas McElwain has to turn around Florida's momentum. So Kentucky fans who say it is now or never are wrong. Keeping up with Florida is tough because the sunshine state is a deep recruiting territory. But as long as Florida State rules, Florida will struggle to get top recruits from their state. Kentucky is now 1 of the most important recruiting powers in Ohio, and we still pick off Florida players like Chris Westry, Derrick Baity, Marcus Walker, Kendall Randolph, Denzil Ware, Garrett Johnson, Jeff Badet, Mac Jones, Jermaine Eskridge. Mark Stoops has the momentum. Our facilities have been modernized. If we keep winning, we can compete with anyone on the recruiting trail going forward.
I agree with you, there are a few kids who come along who are special but not every year. You have to remember, for the most part these guys giving the stars are writers, some with no background in football.
As for as where kids come from, skill guys come from all over, but for dl and lb, to have elite units you better have some southern. Kids, for whatever reason there are more big big guys that can move in the south.
The kids perception was absolutely correct as far as the visible results, and spending more on recruiting four or five (pre Cal) basketball players than on 25 football recruits was great proof, they were spending more on Midnight Madness than the football recruiting budget. Then the disgrace of a recruiting room was a huge disparity that was used against us, proof positive to the recruits that saw it, and I understand they never used MacDonald's kiddy room like I suggested, although it has been reported that Tee lied about our facilities while he was here. I hate liars, but I can't say that I blame him for that.
And no, not ever a corner cut for basketball, but I think that is great, I think that has made UK a lot of money-----I just think UK could have made a lot more money with some of that money invested in football.
Maybe you ought to point out to the Georgia AD what some investment in your second sport can accomplish using UK as an example, UK was losing money hand over fist with the strike, and Georgia can probably make their basketball program much more profitable with some investment.
Wake up call for you here Jauk, you probably need it in Nevada at 4:45 in the morning. Have you been up all night at the casino, bro? We just completely remodeled all of our football facilities in Lexington, built a state of the art recruiting room, gave raises to all of our football coaches, and outbid Michigan to keep Vince Marrow. Or have you noticed? So the crap agenda about Kentucky not supporting our football program can be given a rest.
There's no doubt that the best talent comes from the south but it's split amongst a WHOLE LOT of different programs.
Also, I do believe that many kids from the north are a little under-rated because of where they're from.
Anyways, there's so many good players these days that even teams like Western KY can compete at a very high level.
Kentucky should be able to get enough talent that other variables dictate our success.
This is great and all. But stars do matter, especially with vast disparity like UF and UK. JRowland did a study based upon recruiting stars and final record over the last several years. It was pretty much dead on.
This does not mean a less talented team on paper cannot win, ask Wisconsin, but those other 38 wins had a lot to do with overpowering talent.
This does not mean a less talented team on paper cannot win, ask Wisconsin, but those other 38 wins had a lot to do with overpowering talent.
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