I probably wouldn't agree that much with the player comparisons but I completely agree that this UK team will be quite good. I just like how the pieces fit together...
Fair and objective player comps and why the media is horrifically wrong on this UK team.
- Thread starter Son_Of_Saul
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Did not notice the poster until i finished this post and then had to look .. got a chuckle at that point
Oats is only slightly more proven at Alabama than Pope is.
Yes he went to the F4 last year, with a 12 loss team. It's not like Pope has not coached before (like the UNC and Duke new coaches just 3 years ago), or like Pope hasn't coached a P5 school (he was in the B12 for one year, and had his team ranked for much of the year). And he clearly has more talent than he had last year.
And after Sears, who is the other potential AA candidate at Alabama? Nelson LOL. Nelson got hot for a couple of NCAA-T games, but otherwise was pretty average all year. I would put Carr up against him! I think Williams and Omoruyi is a pretty good & even matchup too. I do like Stephenson for them though (a lot).
Sears is the classic over-achiever. Him vs the defensive-minded Butler would be a good matchup, but you have to give the advantage to Sears.
But I'll take Oweh and Robinson over Wrightsell & Youngblood, and it might not even be close.
Mallette and Stephenson off the bench will be good for them, but we have more players that will be good off the bench (3-5).
Are we better (on paper) than Bama? IDK, probably not. But I think it's reasonably close. And if they are projected top 5 team, there's no reason we shouldn't be projected top 10 or at least top 15-20 team.
Bama is a top 5 team in every ranking I've seen this year. Sears is a SEC and national POY contender by everyone. Oats is one of the hottest coaches in the nation right now. They had a some really good xfers and recruiting class coming in.
Saying all that I still think UK is as good as Bama on paper. I think Butler can hold Sears from going off. That's Butler's special is playing great defense on the other team's best guard. Oweh/Youngblood is even. Robinson is better than Wrightsell. Nelson/Carr is about even. Omoruyi is a little better not much then Williams.
The bench they have a little more post depth and we have more guard depth.
Saying all that I still think UK is as good as Bama on paper. I think Butler can hold Sears from going off. That's Butler's special is playing great defense on the other team's best guard. Oweh/Youngblood is even. Robinson is better than Wrightsell. Nelson/Carr is about even. Omoruyi is a little better not much then Williams.
The bench they have a little more post depth and we have more guard depth.
Oats has a system and don’t forget about his success before Bama as well. I think Pope will do fine, just that I’d have to put Bama in a different class than us until we are proven. The other potential AA to me is is Cliff Omoruyi. He has gotten better each year and will play on a top ranked team where he will get the spotlight now. I think he will be one of the best big men in college this year. Nelson probably makes a 2nd or 3rd All SEC team if he continues his tournament play.
You don't think Pope has a system, that nearly every coach has a system. Yes, Oats may be different than most. The same might be said about Pope's. It's not like Oats has crushed it at Bama. Yes, he's done well, but not crushed it. In 2019 he took a decent team and repeated the prior mediocre season (which got Avery Johnson fired) at 8-10 in SEC. He did then "crush it" in 20-21 only to then lose early in the S16. In 21-22 he fell back to mediocre at 9-9 in SEC. He "crushed it" again in 22-23, once again though losing early in the S16 despite having possibly the best player in the tournament. Then 23-24 was good, despite 12 losses, going 13-5 in SEC and getting hot at the right time and making the F4.
I like Omoruyi. I wanted him, but think Williams is very close to him. On a 1-10 scale, I give Omoruyi a 7.8 and Williams a 7.4. I think Aidou is also right there with both of them (maybe 7.6).
I think I will wait until we sign the try out winner for the 13th and final roster spot before I give my overall talent comparison, prediction.
The one poster who stated "we have a lot of ELITE college talent, just not elite NBA talent"????? We have ZERO players considered "ELITE" in college basketball. Robinson is / will be our best player, did he make any of the post season All conference or NCAA teams ? We have a bunch of solid rotational guys. NOT ONE of them (except Robinson), was considered the BEST player on their team.
The one poster who stated "we have a lot of ELITE college talent, just not elite NBA talent"????? We have ZERO players considered "ELITE" in college basketball. Robinson is / will be our best player, did he make any of the post season All conference or NCAA teams ? We have a bunch of solid rotational guys. NOT ONE of them (except Robinson), was considered the BEST player on their team.
True, we have 0 "elite" players. But we have lots of "good" players.
Just comparing to the past couple of seasons, we have no one as good as the 3 R's or Oscar. But we have several guys (5-6-7) who may be better than anyone else on those 2 teams except maybe Wallace.
I have noticed a lot of you are overating our new players.
Of those 10 role players, only 3 played on teams that were in the NCAA tournament last year.
Productions don't line up between great teams and that level. Somebody has to score on those teams, and they rarely meet production levels on better teams.
For example. Oweh was second leading scorer on an Oklahoma team that didn't make the tournament and finished 9th in the Big 12. Azabuike was third leading scorer on Number 1 seed, and yet both averaged 11 points a game. So if that KAZ was at Oklahoma, hes the star of the team and steals Owehs girlfriend.
Same with Doron Lamb, Final Four 3rd leading scorer and Koby Brea, 6th man on 1 and done Dayton team.
WAKE FORREST didn't make the tournament. So the 4th leading scorer from them doesn't compare to the 3rd leading one, Scott Padgett, who got 17 points in the 1997 NCAA title game.
We're making a fantasy team, have the 6th pick in the draft, and can only choose from 3 good and 7 mediocre teams.
Of those 10 role players, only 3 played on teams that were in the NCAA tournament last year.
Productions don't line up between great teams and that level. Somebody has to score on those teams, and they rarely meet production levels on better teams.
For example. Oweh was second leading scorer on an Oklahoma team that didn't make the tournament and finished 9th in the Big 12. Azabuike was third leading scorer on Number 1 seed, and yet both averaged 11 points a game. So if that KAZ was at Oklahoma, hes the star of the team and steals Owehs girlfriend.
Same with Doron Lamb, Final Four 3rd leading scorer and Koby Brea, 6th man on 1 and done Dayton team.
WAKE FORREST didn't make the tournament. So the 4th leading scorer from them doesn't compare to the 3rd leading one, Scott Padgett, who got 17 points in the 1997 NCAA title game.
We're making a fantasy team, have the 6th pick in the draft, and can only choose from 3 good and 7 mediocre teams.
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This team is very hard to gauge. You can easily argue either way quite easily. I think on paper it's a good team but not a great team. We will be a fringe top 25 team all season and probably get a 6 or 7 seed. If we somehow beat Duke then that will get a lot of national media attention and rightfully so.
You are correct about everything being new, including Pope now coaching as the hunted, versus always being the hunter.
He will definitely have a learning curve in this regard, especially on the road, for sure.
Of course, what I’m saying is he has guys that have played in his system before. We only have one.
I disagree. This is the 7th best team in the SEC on paper. When the season starts? Anything is possible. I'm also not going to compare unknown freshmen. And some mid-major transfers to guys who won titles at UK.
Pope did the best he could this year. As far as roster construction went. Having a full season under his belt at UK. Will help him establish name recognition with recruits. We gotta make the tourney this year to spark it (the Pope era) off. Can't come out flat and lose 13 games. That could be a tailspin for this program.
Pope did the best he could this year. As far as roster construction went. Having a full season under his belt at UK. Will help him establish name recognition with recruits. We gotta make the tourney this year to spark it (the Pope era) off. Can't come out flat and lose 13 games. That could be a tailspin for this program.
You are making a mistake, comparing what those Wildcats did in that season he is comparing them to, vs these Wildcats in the season prior. A more fair comparison would be how did those Wildcats do the year before to how these Cats did the year before.
While true, anything can happen once the games start. I just can’t see “7th on paper in SEC”. I would say no worse than 4th. If you rank our players from best to worst, vs other top teams best to worst, in most cases they will be better than us at #1 and probably #2, but after that from 3 to 5 we are as good as any top team, and 6-9 we are better than most top teams.
So are you saying we are "Built for March"? That sounds familiar but lets hope it isn't the same result as the last few times we heard someone say it.
For this team the sum has to be greater than the value of the parts. Chemistry has to be great. It may take awhile but I'm hopeful they will develop into a high caliber team.
It's not like the last 4 years of having ELITE talent has worked out so well for us. I'm not saying we are a top 5 team because I do agree that we have some good but not elite guys but with that said just having elite guys isn't a recipe for success.
Curious but what was the last major program that had an entirely brand new coach and new team, like not a single returning player? You could say Duke and UNC but they had returning players and they had coaches that were assistants the year prior. Would it be Creans first year at IU? It’s a pretty crazy situation. Really need to be patient this year as it will be a tall order for Pope.
While having talent isn't a guarantee of success.
Not having talent makes it more likely of not having success.
Id rather emulate UConn, Alabama, or even last year's Kentucky to untalented teams like Vandy, Washington, or Cincinnati.
To take it a step further, look at our players coming in :
Robinson - Best player on a solid, not great Big 12 team. More than likely our best player.
Oweh - Not a star on a Big 12 terrible Oklahoma team, was one of 5 guys who averaged over of near double digit scoring, solid player for Oklahoma. Will be a big key to UK's success, he needs to keep getting better.
Garrison - Played on a terrible Big 12 team as a freshman, has a huge ceiling and could gel into a star player.
Williams- Played for Drexel and starred,,, at Drexel, question mark about talent translating against much better, faster, stronger competition. He will not face any Drexel conference talent at center.
Almonor - A top player for Farleigh Dickinson - same as Williams
Brea - 6th man for a decent Dayton team, one dimensional player who can shoot, SEC defenders are a bit more athletic . stronger than he is accustomed to facing.
Kriisa - Has played in major conferences and faced elite talent, needs to play more under control. Possibly one of our leading scorers.
Carr- Same as Kriisa, should be solid, possible leading scorer with Robinson / Kriisa.
Butler - Good PG, elite defender, not much of a scorer.
The 5 best offensive players who have to be even better than last year :
Robinson
Kriisa
Oweh
Carr
Garrison (I have him instead of Williams because he was only a freshman, played in the Big 12, and has a lot higher ceiling than Williams.) Williams is what he is at this point in his career, which is fine, just he is not playing at Drexel this year. Garrison has a chance to be really good.
Butler will run the offense and play elite defense, so I did not list him as one of the 5 offensive best. If the best 5 offensive players can take it up a notch, our better defenders play the defense (Butler, Oweh, Williams, Garrison)they are known for, and UK gets production from Brea, Almonor, and even Chandler, this team CAN be really good, we shall see.
I may be the only one, but I am just not that high on Butler, he hit the ONE big shot, but his whole career has been MEH, not great, not bad, just MEH.
Until I am shown different, MY starting 5 :
Butler
Kriisa
Robinson
Carr
Williams (Though once Garrison shows he has improved, I think he will end up taking Williams minutes)
Robinson - Best player on a solid, not great Big 12 team. More than likely our best player.
Oweh - Not a star on a Big 12 terrible Oklahoma team, was one of 5 guys who averaged over of near double digit scoring, solid player for Oklahoma. Will be a big key to UK's success, he needs to keep getting better.
Garrison - Played on a terrible Big 12 team as a freshman, has a huge ceiling and could gel into a star player.
Williams- Played for Drexel and starred,,, at Drexel, question mark about talent translating against much better, faster, stronger competition. He will not face any Drexel conference talent at center.
Almonor - A top player for Farleigh Dickinson - same as Williams
Brea - 6th man for a decent Dayton team, one dimensional player who can shoot, SEC defenders are a bit more athletic . stronger than he is accustomed to facing.
Kriisa - Has played in major conferences and faced elite talent, needs to play more under control. Possibly one of our leading scorers.
Carr- Same as Kriisa, should be solid, possible leading scorer with Robinson / Kriisa.
Butler - Good PG, elite defender, not much of a scorer.
The 5 best offensive players who have to be even better than last year :
Robinson
Kriisa
Oweh
Carr
Garrison (I have him instead of Williams because he was only a freshman, played in the Big 12, and has a lot higher ceiling than Williams.) Williams is what he is at this point in his career, which is fine, just he is not playing at Drexel this year. Garrison has a chance to be really good.
Butler will run the offense and play elite defense, so I did not list him as one of the 5 offensive best. If the best 5 offensive players can take it up a notch, our better defenders play the defense (Butler, Oweh, Williams, Garrison)they are known for, and UK gets production from Brea, Almonor, and even Chandler, this team CAN be really good, we shall see.
I may be the only one, but I am just not that high on Butler, he hit the ONE big shot, but his whole career has been MEH, not great, not bad, just MEH.
Until I am shown different, MY starting 5 :
Butler
Kriisa
Robinson
Carr
Williams (Though once Garrison shows he has improved, I think he will end up taking Williams minutes)
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This team will be able to put points on the board I have no doubt about. The 9 upperclassmen transfers alone averaged 106.6 points per game combined last season. Throw coach Pope into the mix who runs his offense like a video game and we should be cooking on offense right outta the gate. Anything Chandler, Perry and Noah can give us is a added bonus. I think most games we can just run n gun to a win and easily hit 90 plus points a lot of times.
The reason Pope got players like Butler, Williams, Oweh, Carr and Garrison is on defense we can hopefully slow the other team down in the scoring column. If this team can play good defense we're gonna be a hard team to beat.
Obviously the more the team is on the court together the better they will get. Hopefully the combined experience the team has will make them gel faster then normal. I know the chemistry should be there because they spend a lot of time together all summer and it's only gonna be even more as the season gets closer.
I think we have a bunch of solid players with a great coaching staff and really if a few things bounce out way and we're due the sky is the limit for this team.
The reason Pope got players like Butler, Williams, Oweh, Carr and Garrison is on defense we can hopefully slow the other team down in the scoring column. If this team can play good defense we're gonna be a hard team to beat.
Obviously the more the team is on the court together the better they will get. Hopefully the combined experience the team has will make them gel faster then normal. I know the chemistry should be there because they spend a lot of time together all summer and it's only gonna be even more as the season gets closer.
I think we have a bunch of solid players with a great coaching staff and really if a few things bounce out way and we're due the sky is the limit for this team.
He has no learning curve in the SEC. He undetstands what it means when a UK team comes a calling. His playing days for UK will help him quite a bit.
Unless the transfer rules tighten up, most teams are going to be faced with very significant roster turnover and new players every single year moving forward. Yes - it's a little on the extreme for UK this year since even the coach is new, but it's not going to be all that far off from the (new) norm.
As someone said earlier, Pope put together the best roster he could considering when and where he started from. How good, how competitive(in SEC) and if this team can make the NCAAT and maybe win a game is anyone's guess. Pope and the staff probably have a rough idea of what they have but anyone outside that circle has no clue. It seems we have a collection of decent players but probably no elite players.
In recent years there was an adjustment period of a month or longer until the super hyped frosh(just about entire team) figured out college basketball and how they fit into the team.. I think this group will more closely resemble some of the Joe B Hall teams, it that they will be just about as good from day one as they will during the season. Hopefully there will be some improvement as the season progresses but probably not to extent we have been conditioned to expect or hope to see. I for one, see this as a welcome change
In recent years there was an adjustment period of a month or longer until the super hyped frosh(just about entire team) figured out college basketball and how they fit into the team.. I think this group will more closely resemble some of the Joe B Hall teams, it that they will be just about as good from day one as they will during the season. Hopefully there will be some improvement as the season progresses but probably not to extent we have been conditioned to expect or hope to see. I for one, see this as a welcome change
We as Kentucky fans,and the media too, have conditioned our expectations on players' rankings and draft potential. We will have to adjust that now because Pope is going to recruit players with a particular skill set that fits his offensive and defensive systems. The previous coach went out and recruited the top level talent regardless of how they fit his offense (?) and defense (?) systems (whatever they were). This top talent rarely translated into a top team. Pope is putting together a TEAM that will be better than it's individual parts. I like his concept and am glad things worked out like they did. To me, he has no pressure this year. It is much like Pitino's first year at Kentucky, enjoy the ride and know that any success is really "icing on the cake" this year. It was a miracle to get a roster together after everyone left. Pitino actually had more to work with in 89-90 than Pope did when hired. So we would be smart to have the same mindset for this year that we had then.
This team was handpicked and there was some really good talent still out there, the media loves to make their projections on All Americans and recruiting classes. We know you have to have a really good coach and the right players to make good teams, it's more than high school All Americans that makes teams winners. We've had some of the best talent for years and gotten beat by teams that had no business on the same court with us, at home too. Some of the things that Oats does at Alabama wouldn't fly at Kentucky, also they have always had the talent to win big and good coaches, but they still flame out in the tournament. After they have more than one final four talk to me about it. These coaches that are saying that about Alabama must have been born yesterday. Disrespect is great motivation for teams, this is new for a Kentucky team, but Kentucky will respond. this is too proud a program for any team to overlook in basketball, the doubters will see.
I think that when LSU fired Will Wade and Murray States coach took over, it was a similar overhaul numbers wise.
I cant argue with your assessment but that is because I have only seen 2 of the players on the current team play in a basketball game. They were not standouts in the game I saw. I am assuming that you have seen all of them play and are capable of making the comparisons although, I have no idea how you watched enough of Chandler to compare him to Jeff Brassow.
I believe Ky is going to surprise alot of people and will be a top 10 team before the regular season ends.
Last year we lost games to tougher, older teams.
I don’t think this group will get pushed around like the young guys did last season.
Six fifth year Seniors, plus another fourth year Senior. A Junior and Sophomore to round out the top 9. A 21 year old Freshmen as the 10th man.
Looks to me like a squad that we would all be worried about playing last year, especially come tourney time.
We may not be any good, but we shouldn’t get pushed around again this year.
I don’t think this group will get pushed around like the young guys did last season.
Six fifth year Seniors, plus another fourth year Senior. A Junior and Sophomore to round out the top 9. A 21 year old Freshmen as the 10th man.
Looks to me like a squad that we would all be worried about playing last year, especially come tourney time.
We may not be any good, but we shouldn’t get pushed around again this year.
While I think and hope and expect the squad is generally being underrated, I sure don't blame media folks and general fans for not being very zealous or confident in high expectations because the number of people in new and untested situations is not just high but all but unprecedented.
The track record for the conditions is effectively nonexistent but the hints don't dictate the highest expectations.
Plus, while the talent level is good, few would be looking through a lens that it knocks socks off at a glance so thar doesn't automatically grant escape velocity to the top either.
If it was another team more of us would be more inclined not to get too far over our skis all in all because of the high amount of "new" everywhere that has to work out and gel together in a one season swing.
Embrace being the hunter for a short while, it won't last a hot minute but having any possibility of sneaking up on someone is an interesting spot to be in for a rare occasion.
We are going to start top 35 at the most pessimistic and probably top 25, that is high enough to not have any real obstacles earning a #1 if the play commands it and that is all that the preseason rankings actually matter beyond some sugar high bragging rights.
The track record for the conditions is effectively nonexistent but the hints don't dictate the highest expectations.
Plus, while the talent level is good, few would be looking through a lens that it knocks socks off at a glance so thar doesn't automatically grant escape velocity to the top either.
If it was another team more of us would be more inclined not to get too far over our skis all in all because of the high amount of "new" everywhere that has to work out and gel together in a one season swing.
Embrace being the hunter for a short while, it won't last a hot minute but having any possibility of sneaking up on someone is an interesting spot to be in for a rare occasion.
We are going to start top 35 at the most pessimistic and probably top 25, that is high enough to not have any real obstacles earning a #1 if the play commands it and that is all that the preseason rankings actually matter beyond some sugar high bragging rights.
All I know is I would rather this team come in with lower expectations in the media's eyes. How many times did UK start the season top 5 and get exposed early and lose ugly at the Champions Classic. The media was wrong then. They overhyped our recruiting classes and college ready players. They can just as easily undervalue and team with many decent players from different teams. I think this roster on the college level is top 15 easily. Now they have to prove it. Then there is Coach and until Pope wins a tournament game and makes a final four or just an overall strong NCAA Tournament showing his name does not generate high preseason rankings. Let this team make a strong run next March Elite 8, Final 4, etc... and watch next year's team get overhyped again.
