FACTS: Bill Self at Kansas....

[khuff80]

AFH is sold out each game. It's a tight 16,300 capacity. You can always buy ticket thru a 3rd party vendor. But Kentucky vs. Kansas? You are looking at $500 tickets at a minimum. They would be up next the what some of the Kentucky fans call the 'Helms Bakery Banners'. You have a colorful base.

***THe one thing that I commented on the last time I went to a game there though is that the worst ticket there is still a very good ticket...1,000,000 x better than what you'd see in say the upper deck at an NBA game.

 

[Bogansback2Basil]

Ali - A Kentucky man - rope-a-dope's better. The history of Helms escapes even those who profess to use it. With Helms trophies...UK has double KU's 'national championships.'

I'd like to see a legitimate article where someone calls any champion prior to a 64 team NCAA tournament anything but a true champion. I've got links to folks downplaying 8 and 16...but not 64. Please share what you've got there...

Here's a little history of the one man show known as "Helms"...

http://www.bigbluehistory.net/bb/helms.html

The winningest program in the history of revenue generating athletics! GO BIG BLUE!

 

[ThroughBlue]

That Kansas girls sig really eats me up.

 

[khuff80]

Chest beating KU fans... where were you after the beat down last season - and your flame out in March? You got a great recruit - great... will Self do anything with him? Cliff Alexander called and said...."mehhhhh". For the life of me I don't know why an elite recruit would trust Self with their future at this point - ESPECIALLY if they need to be further "developed"! Perry Ellis is the proof of that. Wiggins didn't develop at KU - he was already ready. Embiid remains to be seen. But someone who wants to develop as an elite player? No. Used to have a lot more respect for Self as a coach - but the choke jobs in March are his new norm. That argument about March seeding being proof of results??? Only thing that proves is that KU is consistently over-rated and over-seeded in March! KU - see if you can dominate a series with in-state Wichita State... that was KU's worst nightmare last March. BTW - Shaka gonna open up a can of whoop azz on that "Big 12" run and expose how weak the Big 12 has been for KU.

***Development under Self?

Morrises "developed", Thomas Robinson "developed", Ben McLemore "developed", Jeff Withey "developed", Cole Aldrich "developed" - as you said "remains to be seen" w/ Embiid but in just the year he was there the improvement was evident.

Brandon Rush "developed", Darrell Arthur "developed", Darnell Jackson "developed", Sasha Kaun "developed", Mario Chalmers "developed".

Arguably Kelly Oubre "developed" from what he was struggling in late Oct. - early Dec. to what he was after that time.


"Choking" in the Tournament overstated. Bill Self not developing talent overstated.

 

[wildcatsboston1984]

The Helms title were hardly the same as AP voters. Helms was a one man committee, they are worthless banners, UK has a couple, I hope we never are so desperate as to claim them.

Not just any one-man committee, it was a one-man committee composed of an account executive in the baking industry. Not the sports industry, not the college basketball industry, the BAKING industry.

 

[khuff80]

Still, KU has a losing record against UK in its own gym...the place that is my favorite opposing venue in the land.

It's always pretty funny when folks - agenda-driven perhaps - elect to use certain time periods and dates to make a point. This is funny since we're looking a time period where Helms champions are no longer considered except by a couple of schools. The nation laughs at those using Helms banners as legitimate championships - given the fact that they were awarded years after the season 'given.'

The winningest program in the history of revenue generating athletics doesn't need to do that...

***And the majority of those games were during KU's worst era - back in the '70s and one of UK's best. Hmmmmm.

 

[khuff80]

This is not "Self-based".

But over the last 30 years (all that I remember watching...from 'nova beating G'town on), both KU & UK have appeared in 5 Championship Games:

UK winning 3x ('96, '98 & '12) and then also appearing in Championship Games they lost in '97 & '14.

KU winning 2x ('88 & '08) and then also appearing in Championship Gamse they lost in '91, '03 & '12.

 

[twocoach]

Kansas fan here and I'll be the first to tip my hat to Cal and Kentucky for their epic run the last five years. It's truly amazing and I'd love to have Kansas accomplish that much. I also agree that Self has had some disappointing tourney losses since his arrival. Some good ones and some great ones but more than enough head scratchers to be frustrating for sure. That said...

There are a multitude of reasons why recruits choose the school they choose. The keys for Diallo seem to have been Kansas' development of Joel Embiid and the availability of playing time. Odds are much higher that he can beat out Landen Lucas for starting minutes versus Labissiere, Poythress or Lee.

Look, I get that Kentucky has been awesome lately. There's no denying that. But what last year proved to every recruit on the planet is that even having the most stacked roster of talented All Americans seen in the last 30+ years doesn't guarantee a national championship. Results are fun for fans to brag over and celebrate but these kids are more concerned with their development and Diallo simply felt that Kansas was the best fit for him.

Many Kentucky fans will point to Cliff Alexander as an example of Self and Kansas failing to get a Top 10 recruit to the NBA Lottery but the reality of the situation is that Cliff and Josh Selby are the only two Top 10 recruits to go to Kansas and not be drafted in the lottery. Kentucky had four Top 10 recruits that won't be lottery picks on their roster just LAST YEAR in the Harrison twins, Dakari Johnson and Alex Poythress. By no means am I saying that Kentucky has failed in any aspect of their development; just pointing out that all programs, even the mighty Kentucky, have had a few of these guys not turn out to be what is hoped for with a Top 10 recruit. Sometimes injuries happen. Sometimes the kids just don't have what it takes between the ears to develop into next-level talent. It happens.

This year has been the strangest recruiting season I have ever seen with guys ending up all over the map. Like I said, I truly believe that Kentucky failing in the Final Four against a Wisconsin team with 2 Top 100 recruits just proved to the world that there are no guarantees and that there are a lot of good programs that you can play at and have success. You don't HAVE to go to Kentucky to have a great career, win games and make it to the NBA.

Best of luck to your Wildcats next year, unless they come to AFH for the Big 12/SEC Challenge game or we meet again in the tourney.

 

[Bogansback2Basil]

***And the majority of those games were during KU's worst era - back in the '70s and one of UK's best. Hmmmmm.

We used to laugh at KU back then. Looking back, it's incredible, absolutely incredible that KU's blueblood administration would have allowed Ted Owens as much rope as they did. The Joe B. Hall doll would wind itself up and walk all over the Ted Owens doll. What a complete waxing. Darnell Valentine still has nightmares...

Take out the 70s and it's closer, yes. Still the same leader...

GO BIG BLUE!

 

[twocoach]

AFH is sold out each game. It's a tight 16,300 capacity. You can always buy ticket thru a 3rd party vendor. But Kentucky vs. Kansas? You are looking at $500 tickets at a minimum. They would be up next the what some of the Kentucky fans call the 'Helms Bakery Banners'. You have a colorful base.

It will take more than $500 for me to give up one of my tickets to that game next year and our season tickets are up pretty high in the corner. No chance I sell a seat to see Kentucky come to town. I hope that game happens, win or lose.

 

[TopCatCal]

Just think how great it must be playing for Kansas. Carlton Bragg, & Cheick Diallo will be able to watch the Final Four & Elite 8 games from the comforts of home. I mean what kind of a sales pitch does Bill Self give these 5 star recruits? Does he say come to Kansas & lose in the round of 32 or the sweet 16 to a lower seeded team? Because that's what happens over & over.

 

[Poetax]

Maybe stop throwing a fit about losing a recruit to KU and the fans won't come here.

Food for thought.

Why don't you stop being an idiot on OUR board and we won't go to yours and act like you. Why anyone would go to your board is also idiotic.

 

[DC Hawkfan]

No, Cal was getting an extension when he was going to two Finals Fours, a NC Runner up, and an NC in 5 years. A run that Self will never see in his career.

When comparing them this way...the other side is that Self will also never see an NIT.... Hasn't even been lower than a 4 seed.

DC

 

[ThroughBlue]

Getting beat by Bucknell might as well be the NIT

 

[twocoach]

Just think how great it must be playing for Kansas. Carlton Bragg, & Cheick Diallo will be able to watch the Final Four & Elite 8 games from the comforts of home. I mean what kind of a sales pitch does Bill Self give these 5 star recruits? Does he say come to Kansas & lose in the round of 32 or the sweet 16 to a lower seeded team? Because that's what happens over & over.

They are worried about themselves and their development. Losing in the Round of 32 had ZERO impact on the development of Joel Embiid or his NBA stock so it is irrelevant to the conversation. It's only used for banter between fan bases, not for decisions by recruits.

Kansas the last few years has been like the Kentucky NIT team; a bunch of young guys with no upperclassmen experience to show them the way. Next year's Kansas team will have a good amount of juniors and seniors so I don't expect them to run into early round troubles in the tourney next season.

 

[Ben101er]

I don't apologize to anyone because Kansas hangs Helms Banners. They were at the time the only determination of a 'National Championship' for that time period. They are honoring the Kansas student athletes that play on those team including a young man from Halstead Kansas...Adolph Rupp. Some of the same people (who you called 'Agenda-Driven Folks') who try to make a case that the Helms Championship mean nothing also advocate that the NCAA Tournament wins until the format was expanded to 64+ are also meaningless. That all wins prior to 1985 do not value the wins after 1985. I think that they are wrong. But that is just one humble opinion.

College Football has changed the way it awards the National Championship with the Football Final Four, it doesn't take anything away from the teams that were named National Champions by BCS or by the Coach's or AP Polls in the 50's, 60's, 70's and beyond.

We have a better system today but it doesn't change yesterday.

Before the NCAA was organized, NIT Championships were at least won on the floor. They were more of a real determination of the best teams, rather than Helms Banners. Helms is what UNC uses. I had hoped that KU had a little more class than that. I guess not.

 

[Neue Regel]

Who is the National Champ of 1924? We know UNC claims they are but so does Butler who won theirs in a tournament. Someone posted a picture of the rafters in Hinkle Field House on TDD a while back and sure enough they have a 1924 National Champions Banner. (oops!! Someone let the lawyers settle it!) but UNC went undefeated the Heels will say, I'm pretty sure Texas did as well that year.

There's a lot of convenient memory loss for those who defend Helms when it comes to the little caveat that a lot of these were retro named years later by some bread company. (Yea that sounds legit, whole wheat, honey wheat or white?)