I think it was settled last year or does that Kansas fan selective memory disorder block that out?
FACTS: Bill Self at Kansas....
- Thread starter gracetoyou
- Start date
This is why they'll never win another championship. Great guards win the title. There have been a few exceptions, but for the most part it is true.
Now Bill Self is, and has always been, a great recruiter. His track record of recruiting and landing 5-star big men is unparalleled, but please spare me the nonsense that he is the best at "developing" them. If this is the case, why is Perry Ellis, a sure-fire top 10 NBA draft pick coming out of high school, STILL there about to go into his senior season????? Really, what big man has he ever developed at Kansas that became an NBA star??? I can't think of a single one to be honest. Maybe Darrell Arthur, but I'd never consider him a "star" NBA player. Embiid may be the guy, but he hasn't been able to prove it yet.
Kansas fans have made me sick today with their cockiness over winning a recruiting battle...still giddy over this years Big 12 title I guess.Guess it helped them forget getting thumped by 35pts.
Did some looking. In Bill Self's 11 seasons at Kansas. This does not include his 2nd round loss in this years tourney:
***Nice to only note the 5-star recruits and where they got drafted. I notice no note of the 4-star recruits and where they got drafted (such as the Morris twins, T.Rob, Aldrich, Withey, et al.)
COUNTING THIS SEASON: 6 out of 12 seasons he HAS NOT made it out of the 2nd round.
2 final 4's in 11 seasons VS. Cal's 4 Final 4's in 6 seasons.
5-STAR PLAYERS IN THE NBA & THEIR DRAFT STATUS
Grade is based on:
The NBA Prep Point System
0 = Undrafted
1 = Drafted in the second round
2 = Drafted in the first round
3 = Lottery pick
4 = Top 5
5 = Number one pick
If I'm being recruited by both schools....it's a no brainer.
***Um, ok - other than UCLA - noone would be a big brother to you all when you use numbers like that.
***Stole a recruit from Kentucky?
KU was in on Diallo first and was consistently more "in on" him throughout the process.
***It's not?! I would think that it is....particularly when considering the talent disparity.
Wichita State called - they're your huckleberry. Perhaps you should tame your own state before you set out to conquer the world.
That NIT team was built around a center, who starts for the 76ers, and he went down to a season ending injury. That team was really young, and at the time Noel was injured, they were just starting to learn the college game and play well. Once he went out, they did not have time to relearn new roles. Had he not, that probably would have been a sweet 16 team. Same thing with KU when Embiid went down. When he went down, it put too much pressure on Wiggins and the other team just focused on him. When they shut him down, KU was beaten. Had Embiid avoided injury, that team probably would have gone to the Elite 8. I am UK fan, but I try to realistically look at both sides of the issue. Would I trade Cal for Self, no way. But is Self a good coach, sure.
****
Since Self's been around
'04 loss to Georgia Tech in Elite 8 - Georgia Tech was the favored team as a 3-seed beating 4-seed KU.......BTW, after No. 9 UAB upset No. 1-seed UK by a pt. 76-75 in the Rd. of 32, KU DESTROYED them by 26, 100-74.
'05 - most embarrassing loss in terms of seed.....lost as a 3-seed to 14-seeded Bucknell in what will later become known as a "House of Horrors" at the then Ford Center (now Chesapeake Energy Arena) in Oklahoma City
'06 - embarrassing yes, but maybe not as bad as '05 at least. Were a 4-seed that lost to 13-seed Bradley, 77-73....the very next round Bradley beat 5-seed Pitt far worse, 77-62.
'07 - lost to a lower-seeded team but not sure they were even favored going into the team.....must have been the lowest seeded 1-seed because they got sent out West to have to play 2-seeded UCLA in San Jose, CA...lost pretty handily. UCLA would go on to lose to the Champs. in Florida in the SemiFinals (Final Four) the very next round.
'08 - CHAMPS!!!
'09 - most of the team from '08 gone except for reserves off that team in Sh. Collins & Aldrich; despite that at least played to their seed in going to the Sweet 16 as a 3-seed and losing to 2-seed Michigan State. Michigan State would make the Championship Game in Detroit but get pretty much blown out by North Carolina
'10 - back to embarrassment again (I was at this game) - Lost in the Rd. of 32 to Northern Iowa w/ Ali Farokhmanesh ending KU's hopes of coming back (had been down something like 13 or 14 and had trimmed it to 2 or 3 in the final min. ......Farokhmanesh, despite the team being up by that 2 or 3 pts. and wanting to drain time off the clock decided to jack up an unguarded 3 and put too much distance); KU fans would lament Self not turning to the press earlier in the game as that's what was behind the near comeback.
'11 - the team they lost to is embarrasing in VCU, but they still made it to the Elite 8. The embarrassment here was in the Morris' twins trash-talking the VCU team before the game (hopefully, no KU team will make that same mistake for yet another decade!!!) VCU put a beatdown on KU despite the game being at the site of their championship run 3 years earlier (San Antonio).
'12 - Technically, the only Self Tournament team that you could argue got farther than they should have and you gotta' wonder if they'd've even made the Final Four if Kendall Marshall of UNC didn't go down to injury. Having said that - a team that a KU fan could be proud of given that they had real depth problems on that team....went about 6 1/2 deep you could say.
'13 - Michigan, don't know what to say there. KU controlled that game and had seemingly 1,000 chances to close it out and just didn't. Burke's long-distance bomb to send it to Overtime was amazing. Michigan went on to prove that it was no fluke in getting to the Championship Game before falling to Louisville.
'14 - Stanford in the Rd. of 32. Technically not that stunning given the loss of Embiid a few games before the end of the season and the physical challenge that Stanford presented. Stanford had a ton of backers since I believe Wichita State & UK fans were cheering pretty vehemently in St. Louis as well.
'15 - Wichita State - maybe the feeling from the fanbase infiltrated the team as it was seemingly 'a given' that last year's team had no shot at the Championship or even a Final Four and the team played with that same lack of confidence especially when a run would come down on them. The first say 35-40% of that game it looked like KU would make fine work of WSU and win by double digits much as they had New Mexico St. Then the reffing got bad and one-sided. Only one of the Self Tournament teams where to me the reffing played a major factor in the outcome of their loss.
So, yeah, technically only satisfactory or above for '04, '07-'09 & '12. Though, technically '13 probably wasn't that bad.
They need a year without injuries toward the end of the year like they've had to deal with each of the last 2 seasons ('14 w/ Embiid & '15 w/ Ellis - although he was one of the few who looked read to take on WSU)
So yes it can certainly be disappointing being a KU fan but you're always in the Tourney and about every other year you're looking at Elite 8 or better.......there aren't too many other schools that get that far over the same period of time (maybe UK, Duke, UNC, UConn....other than those 5 - not too many others all that consistent in their hopes).
Yet the way you all talk on here, you'd think that KU was on par w/ like South Carolina or something.......c'mon now!
Why did you type all of that when my 1st post has a screen shot of Self's tourney history with all the stats.
5 out of 12 seasons you did not get out of the 2nd round. 5 times you made it at least to the elite 8. Only 2 final 4's.
Except for the 2nd final 4 Self's years at Kansas are not all that much better than Tubby Smith's at UK. Tubby was canned...just saying
The two teams will play with or without your approval. You are welcome to come to AFH. You are a son of Rupp; Rupp was a Jayhawk.
Threads like this are just a bad look.
No coach is ever going to sign the entire top ten. That just doesn't happen. So we should move on; I'm sure Cal has.
No coach is ever going to sign the entire top ten. That just doesn't happen. So we should move on; I'm sure Cal has.
So 8 of the last 12 seasons, Kansas has lost to a team seeded lower than them?
6 of those years, they have lost to a team seeded 7 or lower?
That's not great...
I would love to make the trip to Phog Allen. How much do tickets usually run for a game like this there?
Honestly, I would love to, as AFH is the best arena in college basketball. With that said, are you sure we're coming to Lawrence and not Ames? Are y'all hearing it's certain?
Kentucky vs. Iowa State would be a great game too. Hilton is a great building. Everything that I have heard points to Kentucky vs. Kansas. If the Powers read this thread it would be a sure thing.
Inferiority complex runs deep in the veins of Kansas fans. It is cute almost lol. HELMS BABY!!!!!
AFH is sold out each game. It's a tight 16,300 capacity. You can always buy ticket thru a 3rd party vendor. But Kentucky vs. Kansas? You are looking at $500 tickets at a minimum. They would be up next the what some of the Kentucky fans call the 'Helms Bakery Banners'. You have a colorful base.
Allen Fieldhouse is the best venue in college basketball...my favorite place to visit since growing up in Memorial Coliseum. Cameron isn't close...and I used to watch games there during K's early tenure and sit no higher than eight rows behind either bench. UNC's Carmichael was a better venue on Tobacco Road IMO...but nothing is or was what the Coliseum was. Just check the winning percentages...
The margin of UK's history over KU in head to head meetings is such that KU still needs a few wins in their own house to pull even with UK's record in Lawrence...
GO BIG BLUE!
The margin of UK's history over KU in head to head meetings is such that KU still needs a few wins in their own house to pull even with UK's record in Lawrence...
GO BIG BLUE!
Kentucky has only played at AFH three times since 1985, the three trips were not very successful. Three losses. Outscored 303 to 207. Average loss by 31 points. I think you will have a better showing in January2016 if we are paired up in the SEC/Big12 Match-up. Hopefully, next season Jayhawks team will have a better showing than last season vs. the Wildcats.
Chest beating KU fans... where were you after the beat down last season - and your flame out in March? You got a great recruit - great... will Self do anything with him? Cliff Alexander called and said...."mehhhhh". For the life of me I don't know why an elite recruit would trust Self with their future at this point - ESPECIALLY if they need to be further "developed"! Perry Ellis is the proof of that. Wiggins didn't develop at KU - he was already ready. Embiid remains to be seen. But someone who wants to develop as an elite player? No. Used to have a lot more respect for Self as a coach - but the choke jobs in March are his new norm. That argument about March seeding being proof of results??? Only thing that proves is that KU is consistently over-rated and over-seeded in March! KU - see if you can dominate a series with in-state Wichita State... that was KU's worst nightmare last March. BTW - Shaka gonna open up a can of whoop azz on that "Big 12" run and expose how weak the Big 12 has been for KU.
Wichita State called - they're your huckleberry. Perhaps you should tame your own state before you set out to conquer the world.
Lol...well put!
What 4 star recruit under Cal was a OAD lottery pick? Just going off memory, I can't think of many 4 star recruits he has had drafted in the first round. WCS and Booker will be his first. Booker (rivals #29, RSCI #21) has a chance to be the 4star OAD lottery, but most mocks have him going just past the lottery.
Self had Ben Maclemore (rivals #34, RSCI #41) who sat out a year, played as a RS freshman and went #7 in the draft. Other 4 star first round picks: Cole Aldrich, Markief Morris, Marcus Morris, Thomas Robinson (all stayed 3 years) Jeff Withey. Also all big men.
I don't think you will hear any KU fans deny what Cal has done at UK as being impressive. But to say Self doesn't develop talent is crazy.
This reminds me of the little kids.
First kid... "I will tell my daddy to beat up your daddy"
Second kid "Your daddy is not as big as my daddy"
First " I will get my daddy if you go get your daddy"
Second "My daddy will kill your daddy"
All this arguments over a kid choosing one school over the other.
Let it go already;
Correction note: We beat KU this year by 32, not 35.
First kid... "I will tell my daddy to beat up your daddy"
Second kid "Your daddy is not as big as my daddy"
First " I will get my daddy if you go get your daddy"
Second "My daddy will kill your daddy"
All this arguments over a kid choosing one school over the other.
Let it go already;
Correction note: We beat KU this year by 32, not 35.
Still, KU has a losing record against UK in its own gym...the place that is my favorite opposing venue in the land.
It's always pretty funny when folks - agenda-driven perhaps - elect to use certain time periods and dates to make a point. This is funny since we're looking a time period where Helms champions are no longer considered except by a couple of schools. The nation laughs at those using Helms banners as legitimate championships - given the fact that they were awarded years after the season 'given.'
The winningest program in the history of revenue generating athletics doesn't need to do that...
If you are so sick, why would you start a thread that's only going to attract more attention?Kansas fans have made me sick today with their cockiness over winning a recruiting battle...still giddy over this years Big 12 title I guess.Guess it helped them forget getting thumped by 35pts.
Did some looking. In Bill Self's 11 seasons at Kansas. This does not include his 2nd round loss in this years tourney:
COUNTING THIS SEASON: 6 out of 12 seasons he HAS NOT made it out of the 2nd round.
2 final 4's in 11 seasons VS. Cal's 4 Final 4's in 6 seasons.
5-STAR PLAYERS IN THE NBA & THEIR DRAFT STATUS
Grade is based on:
The NBA Prep Point System
0 = Undrafted
1 = Drafted in the second round
2 = Drafted in the first round
3 = Lottery pick
4 = Top 5
5 = Number one pick
If I'm being recruited by both schools....it's a no brainer.
If you don't want to draw more of them out of the woodwork, then starting a thread like this is about as wise as a ninja firing off signal flares.
I don't apologize to anyone because Kansas hangs Helms Banners. They were at the time the only determination of a 'National Championship' for that time period. They are honoring the Kansas student athletes that play on those team including a young man from Halstead Kansas...Adolph Rupp. Some of the same people (who you called 'Agenda-Driven Folks') who try to make a case that the Helms Championship mean nothing also advocate that the NCAA Tournament wins until the format was expanded to 64+ are also meaningless. That all wins prior to 1985 do not value the wins after 1985. I think that they are wrong. But that is just one humble opinion.
College Football has changed the way it awards the National Championship with the Football Final Four, it doesn't take anything away from the teams that were named National Champions by BCS or by the Coach's or AP Polls in the 50's, 60's, 70's and beyond.
We have a better system today but it doesn't change yesterday.
If the NCAA treated Self the way they would Calipari, Kansas would be vacating every game Alexander played in. CA was 18 when his mother took out the loan, no doubt Cliff had to know. That is the reason Cal quit recruiting him and Izzo himself said it was a crooked recruitment. Not surprised at all with Jerrance Howard being involved.
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The Helms title were hardly the same as AP voters. Helms was a one man committee, they are worthless banners, UK has a couple, I hope we never are so desperate as to claim them.
***Admittedly, that's one of the biggest down-sides. Tickets there are VERY expensive & for a matchup like that will be hard to come by.
