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Debate Thread?

Many Western nations have abortion laws that are less than 20 weeks. Seems that aspect of his opinion is right in line with much of the western world.

I don’t know pro-life people who are against sex education. Most are okay with contraceptives. And, many adopt or support nonprofits who care for orphans and families in need. These generalizations you are tossing around as fact do not help the discussion.
France, possibly the most liberal country in the world, just recently celebrated the enshrinement of abortion to their constitution. It had a limit of 14 weeks with some exceptions.

Can you imagine how crazy the left would go here if Trump(or any Republican) suggested adopting their law(without saying that)?

 
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Polling indicates that the majority of the country supports some abortion rights (not free range abortion) and roe v wade allowed states to work within that guideline. I'm not arguing that that split is the same in every state as I am sure there is a much bigger split in places like Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama. However, I believe the people of those states deserve a basic set of Healthcare options available to them. Agree to disagree I suppose.

The religious aspect is only important in the sense that only one of the major three religions outright think abortion has no place in society. It's the majority religion in the US but people split widely based on their unique Christian beliefs (protestants VS catholics etc). This is important because it explains why we would consider it to be immoral when the majority of the rest of western nations disagree. Not trying to say Christianity is wrong but it is unique here as Islam and Judaism have exceptions.

As for the harsh restrictions and is it even Healthcare I don't see the issue. Modern developed nations have some level of access to abortion and it varies depending on location. We now have essentially have 22 states that ban it or put harsh restrictions on it and the remainder allow it. That's a weird concept to me as a woman shouldn't have to worry if she will die from an ectopic pregnancy because of where she lives.

And, again, the recent court rulings and attempts by states with bans to impose their rules across the country is my bigger concern., which is why roe v wade held significance.

Roe v Wade purported to make abortion a constitutional right. How in the world did it permits states to do anything “within that guideline.”

You don’t want states and voters in states to decide the issue in a manner you don’t like. That is about as far from a democracy as you can get. You want to dictate.

States rights under the constitution will play a role in this if federal dictates have your way. But, THAT is a nuanced argument.

Again, the majority of the western world DOES NOT permit unfettered abortion. In fact, the Mississippi law that was the subject of Dodd falls right smack into the norm for most countries. A codification of Roe, as Kamala proposes, is the outlier and falls WAY outside of the norms of morality set forth in the laws of most of the western world.

We agree that a woman with an ectopic pregnancy should not be subjected to risk because of a law. We also agree that states should only be able to control the abortions happening in their states. That does not make abortion, in the general sense, healthcare.
 
Also none of his points feel conservative at this point. He’s just spit balling constantly. Doesn’t feel like he’s operating by a set of principles other than what’s good for him in the moment. What conservative points did he make yesterday?
He’s not a conservative and never has been. It’s wild to me the GOP basically threw away their party for this guy. He’s self serving and being a Republican is just a mean to an end for him. He’ll do things the heritage foundation tells him to, like appoint their judges, but he doesn’t have any conservative principles himself.

His opinion on any one topic will be whatever the last person he spoke to convinced him of. Remember “we’ll take the guns first, due process second”?

He’s been beating the immigrant drum since 2016 and that’s all he’s got. His health care answer was pathetic. “Concepts of a plan” after almost a decade? He’s got nothing.
 
Roe v Wade purported to make abortion a constitutional right. How in the world did it permits states to do anything “within that guideline.”

You don’t want states and voters in states to decide the issue in a manner you don’t like. That is about as far from a democracy as you can get. You want to dictate.

States rights under the constitution will play a role in this if federal dictates have your way. But, THAT is a nuanced argument.

Again, the majority of the western world DOES NOT permit unfettered abortion. In fact, the Mississippi law that was the subject of Dodd falls right smack into the norm for most countries. A codification of Roe, as Kamala proposes, is the outlier and falls WAY outside of the norms of morality set forth in the laws of most of the western world.

We agree that a woman with an ectopic pregnancy should not be subjected to risk because of a law. We also agree that states should only be able to control the abortions happening in their states. That does not make abortion, in the general sense, healthcare.
If it was really about voters in states having the opportunity to decide the topic, then maybe more liberals would agree with you. When you have people like Desantis in Florida, Abbott in Texas, and the governor in Oklahoma doing everything they can to ensure the issue never makes it to the ballot than you can't really say it is in the hands of the states and their citizens when the leaders of those states are trying everything they can to keep it from the voters.
 
If it was really about voters in states having the opportunity to decide the topic, then maybe more liberals would agree with you. When you have people like Desantis in Florida, Abbott in Texas, and the governor in Oklahoma doing everything they can to ensure the issue never makes it to the ballot than you can't really say it is in the hands of the states and their citizens when the leaders of those states are trying everything they can to keep it from the voters.

Well i guess it’s up to the voters to vote out the politicians who are acting against the will of the voters. If that’s what they’re doing.
 
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In our republic, yes to an extent. Within the bounds of the Constitution. Certainly preferred over the federal government doing it.

Why would you think anyone has a right to regulate consenting adult sexuality? What if the wrong people got in power and decided to regulate it in a way that didn’t suit you? To me that feels like a core “stay the eff out of my business” item and should be an inherent freedom we all get to decide for ourselves.
 
Have you even tried to research it? I watched the body cam of the arrest. It happened. I’m not saying every Haitian immigrant is eating people’s pet but it happened at least once. Also another man is at a city council meeting saying others were yanking ducks out of the public pond and cutting their heads off and leaving with them. Presumably for some duck stew which is actually good
Have you tried to research it? The body cam footage your referring to was not a Haitian immigrant and was not in Springfield , it's a random woman in Canton, OH.
 
I always try to admit when I'm wrong, and I was wrong. There is clear evidence of an illegal alien trying to eat a family's pet cat.

rpLXBbr.png
 
Non-partisan take:

I can't ever recall seeing two blowout debates in the same election year. I know there's been some years where one candidate won the first debate and the other candidate came back and won the next debate (Obama immediately comes to mind) but not both of them being landslides. And we have an unusual case here with a "relief pitcher" on the DEM side, but it was crazy to watch how well Trump did in the first one against Biden (when he mostly shut the hell up and let his opponent make unforced errors) and this one where he was hit with a master class in psychological warfare and went full-unhinged mode. Woodshed.

At the end of the day, I doubt it changed many voters' minds. #USA
Non partisan.... BS.
 
Non partisan.... BS.
Honest question, is there any way an actual non-partisan could give you an answer critical of Trump without you claiming they're actually partisan? I'm a registered Republican, and could show you proof of that. I have never voted for Trump and never will. I could give you a laundry list grievances I have with him from over the last decade. I could make a similar list for the Democratic party.

But as soon as I say anything critical of Trump I get accused of being a flaming leftist. So I'm honestly curious how you would ever accept any criticism of Trump from either a Republican or non-partisan without accusing them of being a RINO or secret Democrat?

One of the most troubling parts of Trump's rise over the last decade has been the expectation of blind obedience. Anyone who speaks out against him is then cast aside and accused of being a RINO. Which is absurd because the man is no Republican himself. He has zero actual conservative values.
 
Why would you think anyone has a right to regulate consenting adult sexuality? What if the wrong people got in power and decided to regulate it in a way that didn’t suit you? To me that feels like a core “stay the eff out of my business” item and should be an inherent freedom we all get to decide for ourselves.


Personally, I basically agree with you, the state has a place in the bedroom when it comes to regulating issues of consent and criminalizing nonconsensual activity.

Can’t have a free for all where rape is accepted just because it’s in a private bedroom.
 
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Have you even tried to research it? I watched the body cam of the arrest. It happened. I’m not saying every Haitian immigrant is eating people’s pet but it happened at least once. Also another man is at a city council meeting saying others were yanking ducks out of the public pond and cutting their heads off and leaving with them. Presumably for some duck stew which is actually good

Crisis actors
 
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Honest question, is there any way an actual non-partisan could give you an answer critical of Trump without you claiming they're actually partisan? I'm a registered Republican, and could show you proof of that. I have never voted for Trump and never will. I could give you a laundry list grievances I have with him from over the last decade. I could make a similar list for the Democratic party.

But as soon as I say anything critical of Trump I get accused of being a flaming leftist. So I'm honestly curious how you would ever accept any criticism of Trump from either a Republican or non-partisan without accusing them of being a RINO or secret Democrat?

One of the most troubling parts of Trump's rise over the last decade has been the expectation of blind obedience. Anyone who speaks out against him is then cast aside and accused of being a RINO. Which is absurd because the man is no Republican himself. He has zero actual conservative values.
I wanted to ask you a question based on what you wrote. I assume since you have never voted for Trump and never will, that you voted for Clinton and Biden, or you threw away your vote on the Libertarian candidate or some other fringe candidate with no chance at victory. In this particular election where does that lead you? Kamala? As much as I have never been a huge fan of Trump, I find the policies of Democratic party to be completely inconsistent with the a Republican form of government that values individual liberty. So the thought of the Dems agenda continuing, for me, is much worse that whatever I think of Trump.
 
It’s funny that you think she had the “demeanor.” Again, my wife cringes with Trump (I laugh, she cringes) and hates politics, but she was watching the first part of the debate and said, “she looks awfully smug.” I do not think it was a compliment.

SHe was coached and choreographed; her acting had intentionality to it and was well rehearsed. I think it played well with her target audience, while off-putting to those who likely weren't going to support her anyway.
 
Personally, I basically agree with you, the state has a place in the bedroom when it comes to regulating issues of consent and criminalizing nonconsensual activity.

Can’t have a free for all where rape is accepted just because it’s in a private bedroom.

No. There are a few obvious regulations but I dont see why you’d want to allow states to decide this one. Feels like an open door to weird bad repressive ideas to take hold. I say once you’re over 18 have it as long as whoever you’re with says yes. Whatever. We won’t solve it here. Thanks for the clarification.
 
First they came for the cats and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a cat owner.
Then they came for the dogs, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a dog owner.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

In support of Trump’s claim that pet cats are being eaten by immigrants in Springfield, Ohio, the National Republican Party has issued this statement:

“We believe more pussy will be eaten in Springfield, Ohio, this year, than in any other American city (excluding WNBA host cities).”

That is all.
 
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Just admit you guys fell for some fake news and move on. Argue the values of allowing this many asylum seekers into the country on its merits, don't argue using fake fear mongering about things that never happened.
I'm pretty confident in the geese part. I lived in a town (DeLand, FL) where there were geese beloved by the community and when one or two of them were killed it was a big deal to the locals.

I think the cat part comes from that one video that's out there. That and the never ending urban legend of cats going missing as a cheap replacement of chicken.
 
Why would you think anyone has a right to regulate consenting adult sexuality? What if the wrong people got in power and decided to regulate it in a way that didn’t suit you? To me that feels like a core “stay the eff out of my business” item and should be an inherent freedom we all get to decide for ourselves.

You’re sounding like a Conservative!!
 
I'm pretty confident in the geese part.

As to the dog part, had thousands of immigrants not disemBarked in Ohio, this subject would have been muzzled and mute.

Instead, we have incessant whining, bitching and even howling-mad responses from Left and Right.

Oddly, the only voices yet to be heard are from the Haitians, themselves . . . they need to know this is a dog-eat-dog world, step-to-the-plate, take the bull by the horns, and address the issue and respond with worn-out metaphors.
 
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In this particular election where does that lead you? Kamala? As much as I have never been a huge fan of Trump, I find the policies of Democratic party to be completely inconsistent with the a Republican form of government that values individual liberty. So the thought of the Dems agenda continuing, for me, is much worse that whatever I think of Trump.
Fair warning, this is a book. If you don't want to read it, I feel the entire Trump campaign lacks substance and isn't based in reality. It's relying on the same fear mongering we heard from him in 2020 and 2016 (and even before him from others) , although turned up a bit. I think he's not fit to handle international affairs and cozies himself up with the wrong world leaders. My status quo right now is actually quite good and I'm more comfortable having Harris continue that than I am with Trump in office. I think the GOP has completely thrown away what they once stood for to just turn themselves into the MAGA party.

I know it's going to sound like fear mongering and people will say I have TDS and all that BS, but I don't think people realize how dangerous he has the potential to be. Last night when he was talking about world leaders who he gets along with he could only name three names: Orban (who has for all intents and purposes turned Hungary into a non-democratic state), Kim Jong Un (who he literally saluted when he went to NK), and Putin. Trump was asked twice to answer with a simple yes or no if he wanted Ukraine to win the war and he couldn't do it. That's a huge red flag to me. The stability of Europe is dependent upon not capitulating to Putin. And the stability of Europe is key to the stability of the world. It's absolutely wild to me, that in 2012 Romney (rightfully) said Russia was still our #1 geopolitical foe, Obama laughed at him, and the GOP came to Romney's defense. Now the Presidential nominee for that same GOP can't even clearly say if he wants Ukraine or Russia to win the war. And this is not to directly compare the situations, but imagine if in 1939 our main goal was just to "stop soldiers from dying" instead it being to defeat Hitler?

This will again be mocked for fear mongering, but January 6 was a disgrace. Compare it all you want to BLM or whatever other nonsense you think it was equivalent to, but that was a horrible day. And Trump is doubling down. The premise that if the roles were reversed, and those were Biden supporters rushing the Capitol, that Trump supporters would still be okay with it like they are now is absurd. It was wrong no matter whose candidates supporters did it.

Trump's entire election denial schtick is dangerous, and at this point I honestly don't know why people still believe it. He claimed the 2016 election was going to be rigged before it even happened. He claimed it was rigged after it happened and that he really won the popular vote. He claimed 2020 was going to be rigged before it even happened. Claimed 2020 was rigged after it happened. Is claiming 2024 is going to be rigged before it even happens. At what point do people who support him honestly ask why he can't ever admit he actually lost? Literally everything that doesn't go his way he claims is because there's some conspiracy against him. He's done this before with damn reality TV shows.

So at a very minimum, given my concerns above, I would vote for Harris and deal with whatever Democratic policies I disagreed with because to me that trade off is worth not putting Trump in power again.

But on a policy point of view, to paint Harris as an extreme leftist is just not accurate. And guess what? We've heard the same exact things before about Obama, and Biden, and every other Democratic nominee and the world hasn't ended. The fear mongering gets old after a while. Trump called her a Marxist last night. I highly doubt he even knows what that means, but he knows his voters are scared of the word so he'll use it. Remember when the GOP said Obama is going to take your guns for 8 years? Did he actually do that? No. Remember calling Obama, Biden, and now Harris a socialist, a marxist, a communist? We still have the strongest capitalistic economy in the world. This country is literally run on capitalism. To act like a Democratic President of the United States, who has very little real power to actually influence the economy or to make economic policy, is going to plunge the US into marxist hell hole is just fear mongering.

Everyone keeps saying the economy was better and inflation was lower before Trump. But the President doesn't exactly control inflation. Inflation was worse in almost every western country than it was here in the US. Did Biden cause that too? I fail to see how baked in inflation as a result of Covid screwing up the entire supply chain is the fault of whoever happened to be President at the time. And if Trump won reelection and Democrats blamed inflation on him I would say the same thing. I think the Fed managed things quite well, and that Fed chair was appointed by Trump. It seems like they were able to pull off a soft landing, avoiding a recession while getting inflation under control. Given all of the above, blaming inflation on Biden, who isn't Harris by the way falls completely flat. Everyone keeps asking "are you better off now or four years ago" as if it's some sort of Gotcha. Well I'm better off now.

You mentioned individual liberty, so let's see which candidate or party is actually for that. Obviously abortion is the hot topic right now, and your definition of how that relates to individual liberty will depend on where you stand on abortion, but for me I disagree with the GOP on this. JD Vance and Trump were asked if they would veto a national abortion ban. Neither could answer the question, and instead just said the ban would never happen so it's not worth talking about. A lot of things that would never happen have happened. It was a simple yes or no answer. If it will never happen then just give your real answer and move on and you'll never have to hear about it again because well, it'll never happen, right? But neither could answer. Couple that JD Vance's comments about what the "purpose" of women is and I can draw my own conclusions about his abortion stance.

The GOP is the one who is currently ignoring the will of the voters when it comes to abortion. In multiple states voters have voted in favor of abortion via referendums and the state GOP controlled government tried or talked about how to ignore the vote. GOP controlled states are also fighting hard to keep abortion referendums off the ballot. How is the party that still claims the 2020 election was stolen from the voters going to try to take power away from voters on another topic? It's hypocritical. They know the vote won't end up in their favor and they're trying to stop it.

The transgender fear mongering is icky to me. If I know any trans people I am unaware of it, so this topic doesn't affect me or any one I know personally. But just let people live their lives. The entire obsession about drag shows being dangerous is weird. Drag shows are not inherently sexual and are a clear expression of the first amendment. Drag shows have existed in our armed forces as entertainment for almost a hundred years and maybe longer. The greatest generation that defeated Hitler and the Nazis dressed up in drag on base. Why is this all of a sudden a problem? Then you get to the whole gender affirming care bans. Gender affirming care does not equal surgery.

Calling a 16 year old named Chris Christina is technically gender affirming care. Banning it is a complete overstep by the government and a violation of personal liberty. Just let people live how they want to live. The vast majority of people are completely uneducated on what being transgender actually entails, so just leave it to people and their own doctors. I do also think it's funny how all these bans on gender affirming surgery for people under 18, which I would probably agree with, never ban circumcision, which is by the definition of the word genital surgery. To me this is just another "we'll allow it when we agree and not allow it when we don't" piece of hypocrisy.

Republicans are the ones banning books and trying to tightly control what's taught in school. Banning books has never once put you on the right side of history. The internet exists in 2024, banning a book about homosexuality from a school library isn't preventing anyone from reading it. Are book bans not a violation of individual liberty? Honestly to me the entire premise that the GOP is somehow the party of individual liberty rings extremely hollow in 2024. Trump is not directly responsible for a lot of this, but his rhetoric has certainly contributed to the views of the party at large.

Both parties run up the national debt, so I've just completely ignored that. And again, facts actually show GOP presidents have higher deficits than Democratic ones. Our last surplus was under Clinton. Our first trillion dollar deficit was under Bush. Obama spent 8 years with a deficit trend line that shows deficits slowly decreasing. Trump came in and exploded the deficit again. He was back at a trillion dollar deficit before Covid hit. They haven't been great under Biden, but again Biden is not running, Harris is.

At the end of the day, a Harris Presidency is safer to me than another Trump one. I don't think there will be any adults in the room under Trump. 40 out of 44 of his former cabinet officials have refused to endorse him this time around. Guys like Bill Barr, who were conservative darlings before Trump, have said some extremely damning things about him. Trump isn't a conservative and the GOP is no longer the Republican party it was.
 
If it was really about voters in states having the opportunity to decide the topic, then maybe more liberals would agree with you. When you have people like Desantis in Florida, Abbott in Texas, and the governor in Oklahoma doing everything they can to ensure the issue never makes it to the ballot than you can't really say it is in the hands of the states and their citizens when the leaders of those states are trying everything they can to keep it from the voters.

I wonder how governors and legislators get into office. If we only knew THAT, we may be able to finally do the will of the people!!!
 
ukcatz is a big fan of the US government. I am not. I will from now on never vote for any more career politicians and I will rest easy knowing that.
 
He’s not a conservative and never has been. It’s wild to me the GOP basically threw away their party for this guy. He’s self serving and being a Republican is just a mean to an end for him. He’ll do things the heritage foundation tells him to, like appoint their judges, but he doesn’t have any conservative principles himself.

His opinion on any one topic will be whatever the last person he spoke to convinced him of. Remember “we’ll take the guns first, due process second”?

He’s been beating the immigrant drum since 2016 and that’s all he’s got. His health care answer was pathetic. “Concepts of a plan” after almost a decade? He’s got nothing.

The same people who cried and screamed when the GOP attempted to take on Obamacare are now blaming Trump for not having a plan to usurp Obamacare. ROFL! Too funny. Just have to enjoy this ride.
 
Trump isn't a conservative and the GOP is no longer the Republican party it was.

Look, we’re not stupid. We know about January 6th. We know he is a threat to NATO and Taiwanese Freedom. We know he disrespects our military, our veterans,
former POW’s, our War dead at Arlington, the disabled, women, our security apparatus, our two-hundred year political norms, and much else we hold dear.

But measured against these warts, you gotta’ admit . . . .

That’s one bitchin’ hairdo!!!!!!
 
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It's from some random lady in Canton, OH.

Look, Dude, she’s black, from somewhere in Ohio and just ate a Cat.

If all internet memes had to score one-hundred present on factual accuracy, there would be damn few internet memes.
 
The Democratic Party is the party of lawyers. Usually failed/disbarred lawyers. And they somehow increase their net worth tenfold while in office. They are government's version of organized crime.
 
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