In what?
Does your Bret Hart bias play a factor here?
I was never an HBK fan. I appreciated his second run a bit more and admire his matches with Taker and Flair at Mania but listening to people like Kevin Nash call him the GOAT is absurd.
CI Wrestling Thread #56
- Thread starter K-mac18
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In what?
Does your Bret Hart bias play a factor here?
I was never an HBK fan. I appreciated his second run a bit more and admire his matches with Taker and Flair at Mania but listening to people like Kevin Nash call him the GOAT is absurd.
I know Warrior did it but did anyone else? Was Macho? I think Goldberg was US champ when he beat Hogan for the big gold belt.
Everything except hype and timing.
If peak Eddie had been in Shawn's spot circa 1996, no one would bat an eye at the assertion that he was better..
If peak Eddie had been in Shawn's spot circa 1996, no one would bat an eye at the assertion that he was better..
Did Eddie ever wrestle Shawn? Would have been a real shame if they didn't have a match.
Eddie was more naturally likable. By a wide margin he was more likable. There are no "Eddie Guerrero was a real dick backstage and railroaded a bunch of people because he had influence and Vince's ear" stories.
That's also why Shawn was a better heel. And Eddie was a GREAT heel.
Eddie was a better technical wrestler by leaps and bounds. Shawn was better at taking bumps.
Could Eddie have had Shawn's amazing matches against Undertaker? No. Shawn is the best "little guy vs. big guy" wrestler ever.
Could Shawn have had Eddie's amazing matches against the cruiserweights? No. Eddie is the best "make these flippy guys actually wrestle" wrestler ever.
Eddie was a better promo. Shawn had more in-ring charisma.
I think Shawn's first run gets a huge pass due to the WWE hype machine (and that goes all the way back to 1996). If he didn't have his second run, there is no way he gets the love he does.
I know that's silly, since you just can't ignore half of a guy's career, but aside from taking bumps and making dick jokes, what exactly did HBK do between 1995-1998?
I know that's silly, since you just can't ignore half of a guy's career, but aside from taking bumps and making dick jokes, what exactly did HBK do between 1995-1998?
He was a colossal dick who had great matches, one right after the other. The boyhood dream angle made him look like a giant corncob then and it's aged even worse.
But I can't take away the ladder matches, Mind Games, IYH 7, the Sid match, the tag match with Austin vs. the Harts, Hell in a Cell, et al just because he was a complete menace to society outside the ring. And that heel work in '97 (with the big caveat of when it was focused and not a bunch of semi-shoot crap) was an all-time heel run.
Bret's '97 heel work >>>>>>> Shawn's '97 heel work 
And I'm not even talking about behind the scenes dickhead stuff, I'm just talking about wrestling. HBK had top tier all time matches in that first run; you won't hear me deny that. But, he also couldn't draw and his heel heat was mostly on the spectrum of "Go away" to "Cheap gay jokes."
Before his second run his career/M.O. was: Great worker, terrible promo, bad angles, no heat.
Eddie was a heat magnet damn near from day 1, especially if you include his stuff with Art Barr
And I'm not even talking about behind the scenes dickhead stuff, I'm just talking about wrestling. HBK had top tier all time matches in that first run; you won't hear me deny that. But, he also couldn't draw and his heel heat was mostly on the spectrum of "Go away" to "Cheap gay jokes."
Before his second run his career/M.O. was: Great worker, terrible promo, bad angles, no heat.
Eddie was a heat magnet damn near from day 1, especially if you include his stuff with Art Barr
Apparently Vince green lighted the NXT call-ups because he thought the women’s division was getting stale...
I thought we were getting the 4 horsewomen versus Rousey group - wonder if that’s still going to happen?
I thought we were getting the 4 horsewomen versus Rousey group - wonder if that’s still going to happen?
Nashetty never drew a dime, never had a half-decent match, was literally an anti-draw as champion.
Couldn't take the heat so ****ed off to the little leagues in Atlanta.
There he rode the coattails of Hogan to actually be somebody (in an angle that would eventually be the death of the company because they buried all the other talent).
Had a very very brief period where he did draw some dimes. But then again it was a jannetty company whose fans were rural, suburban and southern retards any, so it didn't count. WCWetty dimes don't count.
Company failed (thanks in no part to him and his booking). When his contract is up he needs a paycheck again so comes crawling back to WWE.
Comes back to the company injured, can't even work a match at Wrestlemania.
Who comes back injured after 1.5 years of rest and recuperation? Jannettys like Nash, that's who.
Gets embarrassed and BTFO by a real draw like The Rock. Literally worked into a shoot.
Luckily for Nash, Rock heads back to Hollywood for a bit, so Nash can come out of the cuckshed and try again.
Forms the jannettyest of jannetty stables with Waltman, Hickenbottom and Big Slow.
Makes an in-ring return in a very easy 5v5 tag match.
Blows out his quad because he's skipped leg day for the past 10 years.
Has to wait ANOTHER year for a run (during which time Rock has come back for another based little stint, putting over Lesnar, retiring Austin and putting over Goldberg).
Comes back and has the biggest anti-draw feud of all time with Triple Gaitch.
Leaves again like a bitch.
Nashetty never drew a dime.
Do you know if he's going to kayfabe you? I heard Bobby Roode on local radio yesterday and it was 100% shoot but I would love it if Jinder stayed in character.
Give Li'l Naitch kudos for his supporting role in selling that.
It's the little things. No pun intended.
Watching Superstars from 1994. HBK and Diesel feuding with the Headshrinkers....OK
Brooklyn Brawler is playing Knuckleball Schwartz and Vince asks whether he's a pitcher or a catcher and then says he'll get sent down to the minors.
Also, this:
Brooklyn Brawler is playing Knuckleball Schwartz and Vince asks whether he's a pitcher or a catcher and then says he'll get sent down to the minors.
Also, this:
I mean the Headshrinkers were monsters in 1994 and hbk/diesel hadn’t leveraged their backstage power yet but the trajectory after that was tremendous - they just needed the Headshrinkers to put them over!
Also don’t forget at one point Road Dogg was a “roadie” for Jeff Jarrett before he joined DX.
Been youtubing tonight. Vince won the DNA lottery with Stephanie and Shane. They know how to deliver a promo. They know the business.
@K-mac18 Jonesy called you the short bald guy on periscope. Please put him in the Sharpshooter
Matt Jones making fun of someone's hair or lack of. Ok...he spent much of his life with bangs on his forehead and a "white collar" mullet on his neck.
Let's follow Jones into the parking lot of Jim Crockett Promotions and treat him like Dusty.
The non-finisher that makes me mark out the most: When Owen Hart would catch the guy coming off the ropes and snap off the belly to belly. Just another reason why Owen is the best Hart. HBK in particular took this move at 200 MPH.
Hot take -i thought Owen Hart was overrated. If he wasn’t a Hart would he have gotten a push. He always came off as whiny although he was a solid worker. Bret was 10x better than Owen.
Owen was better at doing moves than Bret. He was better at playing a way over the top character than Bret.
But you know where guys with over the top characters who are good at doing moves end up? The mid-card.
But you know where guys with over the top characters who are good at doing moves end up? The mid-card.
I remember WWF had a slightly different formula for such performers in the '80's. They were usually brought in from another territory, hyped and built up for a couple months, and then put in a fued with (fed to) Hulk Hogan.
But then, mid-card hell.
Here's a question: What would Owen Hart's career arc and legacy be if he didn't die tragically? He was 34 when he died, I think his career had already peaked. I think we would do little more than recognize his name and recognize he was a good worker who was likeable in a comedic role. However, he never had the charisma to be a top talent, and his actual level of talent is exaggerated in reverence due to his tragic death as well as his brother's success.
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