China Building 15 New Coal Fired Power Plants

[cat_in_the_hat]

I'm not ignoring China's building new coal fired steam plants nor do I excuse it, but that has nothing to do with what they are spending on alt energy. The have an energy deficiency situation due to their rapid growth and are dealing with it by whatever means are available alt or conventional but they are moving more towards alt.

I wouldn't say the west burning less fossil fuels does nothing, but your right to point to the fact that this is a global issue and will only be solved when the largest polluters India and China ramp up and move more rapidly off fossil fuel.

Your second sentence is the problem with the general public and their understanding of why generation resources are added. Energy has nothing to do with the addition of generating resources. Generation resources are added because of a lack of capacity during peak hours. As I have said before, if solar or wind generation is available 20% of the time during peak hours, for example, then you can't meet peak hour capacity requirements by installing wind or solar alone. You have to install solar or wind plus some dispatchable resource such as combined cycle or simple cycle gas turbines. Clearly China believes coal is a better option than the combination of solar and gas.

 

[Deeeefense]

Your second sentence is the problem with the general public and their understanding of why generation resources are added. Energy has nothing to do with the addition of generating resources. Generation resources are added because of a lack of capacity during peak hours. As I have said before, if solar or wind generation is available 20% of the time during peak hours, for example, then you can't meet peak hour capacity requirements by installing wind or solar alone. You have to install solar or wind plus some dispatchable resource such as combined cycle or simple cycle gas turbines. Clearly China believes coal is a better option than the combination of solar and gas.

I don't disagree, so they augment their Alt energy program with a few coal-fired steam plants for the reasons you point out. Not great for the environment but maybe that's the only choice they have for now considering they have to import a huge amount of LNG which is enormously expensive.

However you need to look at the long game. Battery technology is improving all the time. Residential photovoltaic systems can keep a home going 24x7 on solar power in many areas. It's only a matter of time before that technology is scaled up enough so that capacity during peak hours isn't an issue. Japan already has solar farm with battery storage that meets the local utilities requirements.

Solar farm fitted with batteries to meet grid output control requirements goes online in Japan

One of the first large-scale solar farms in Japan so far to be equipped with battery storage in order to meet the requirements of a local grid operator and utility, has been completed on the island of Hokkaido.

www.energy-storage.news

Even if we can get to the point where the vast majority of power is produced by alt energy sources and we only need say 10-20% of the capacity by fossil, that would be a huge win IMO.

 

[cat_in_the_hat]

I don't disagree, so they augment their Alt energy program with a few coal-fired steam plants for the reasons you point out. Not great for the environment but maybe that's the only choice they have for now considering they have to import a huge amount of LNG which is enormously expensive.

However you need to look at the long game. Battery technology is improving all the time. Residential photovoltaic systems can keep a home going 24x7 on solar power in many areas. It's only a matter of time before that technology is scaled up enough so that capacity during peak hours isn't an issue. Japan already has solar farm with battery storage that meets the local utilities requirements.

Solar farm fitted with batteries to meet grid output control requirements goes online in Japan

One of the first large-scale solar farms in Japan so far to be equipped with battery storage in order to meet the requirements of a local grid operator and utility, has been completed on the island of Hokkaido.

www.energy-storage.news

Even if we can get to the point where the vast majority of power is produced by alt energy sources and we only need say 10-20% of the capacity by fossil, that would be a huge win IMO.

Yes, as battery technology improves it makes solar and wind more viable. I don’t know how much capacity it will ultimately replace, but hopefully it will be significant as long as it’s cost effective. A breakthrough in sulphur batteries would be huge in that regard. That being said, certain loads can’t be served from a battery. There is a power production engineer I know who tells a story about an industrial load that when it starts up he can see the shaft deflect in the turbine at the power plant. He says the spinning mass of the turbine is required to overcome the resistance to serve the load. He said a battery could never do that. I don’t know how common that is but there will be a certain amount of load a battery won’t be able to service.

 

[hmt5000]

I don't disagree, so they augment their Alt energy program with a few coal-fired steam plants for the reasons you point out. Not great for the environment but maybe that's the only choice they have for now considering they have to import a huge amount of LNG which is enormously expensive.

However you need to look at the long game. Battery technology is improving all the time. Residential photovoltaic systems can keep a home going 24x7 on solar power in many areas. It's only a matter of time before that technology is scaled up enough so that capacity during peak hours isn't an issue. Japan already has solar farm with battery storage that meets the local utilities requirements.

Solar farm fitted with batteries to meet grid output control requirements goes online in Japan

One of the first large-scale solar farms in Japan so far to be equipped with battery storage in order to meet the requirements of a local grid operator and utility, has been completed on the island of Hokkaido.

www.energy-storage.news

Even if we can get to the point where the vast majority of power is produced by alt energy sources and we only need say 10-20% of the capacity by fossil, that would be a huge win IMO.

Battery tech is pretty much stalled right now. Battery production is also way more pollution heavy than an oil or gas field.

These ponds are so toxic that birds that land in them will die just from contact without even drinking it.

 

[hmt5000]

Yes, as battery technology improves it makes solar and wind more viable. I don’t know how much capacity it will ultimately replace, but hopefully it will be significant as long as it’s cost effective. A breakthrough in sulphur batteries would be huge in that regard. That being said, certain loads can’t be served from a battery. There is a power production engineer I know who tells a story about an industrial load that when it starts up he can see the shaft deflect in the turbine at the power plant. He says the spinning mass of the turbine is required to overcome the resistance to serve the load. He said a battery could never do that. I don’t know how common that is but there will be a certain amount of load a battery won’t be able to service.

You also have to consider that China has control of the vast majority of rare earth minerals. While Lithium is kinda 'easy' to get and is in friendly countries.... most of the other metals needed for batteries are in countries that won't care about the US.

 

[Deeeefense]

Battery production is also way more pollution heavy than an oil or gas field.

The amount of pollution required in battery production is finite and is dependent upon the source of power. If the power is generated by a coal-fired steam plant than it will be heavy, if by alt energy, none. The amount of pollution created by fossil fuels is only limited by the life cycle of the plant which can be 40, 50, 60 years or more.