Whether you're a Kansas guy, UK guy, NBA guy, whatever someone has to explain this Bill Self and Kansas big man thing to me. Sure Embiid hasn't played yet but other than Markieff Morris who is solid at best Bill Self's bigs are jokes in the NBA. For Christ's sake at least say Donovan, hell Mark Gotfried has Brandon Bass and Glen Davis in the NBA that are better than KU's guys.
Can Someone Explain The Bill Self Big Man Thing
- Thread starter miracle7s
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He's done a good job developing those Top 25-75 bigs into really good college players. They haven't done much in the pros. Overall, his OAD success has been a mixed bag at best. Guy couldn't even get to the Sweet 16 with Andrew Wiggins- the NBA's next superstar.
My guess is Self probably guarantees starting spots to guys and plays to their egos more than Cal. That's the only thing I can come up with. Outside of Embiid, I can't think of any one and done bigs from Kansas who have had success. You would think the Cliff Alexander train wreck last year would make guys think twice, but that goes to show how strange the recruiting game is. I get the feeling most high school players don't even watch college ball.
Anthony Davis says hello.
Jesus Christ. Did I say he was going to be better than Anthony Davis? No. The NBA has more than one superstar.
Its the system he runs. Gets bigs easy baskets and makes them look better than they actually are. That's why all their bigs get drafted higher than they should.
I'm not sure what it is either, but I guess Kansas having the best big man ever helps get people there. I would say he does offer starting spots to recruits, I have been to the campus and inside Allen fieldhouse and while there is tradition and a lot of basketball history there, there is not much else in Lawrence. Im sure Self is a good coach, but I have always wondered how he gets some of the players he gets to come there, kind of like Nebraska in football, not much to do around there, but great tradition,
Doesn't he run a hi/low post offense and run through his bigs? Maybe that's it. He has done a good job with lesser ranked guys (Withey, Morris twins, Robinson, Ellis). Who are his one and one bigs? Embiid, Alexander... .who else was expected to be one and done that was also a big? Sure, he's whiffed on one and done wings (Wiggins, Selby, Oubre, Henry). Eh, let him have that title. Bill Self Big Man Conference Title lose to a lower seed in the NCAA tournament.
It's a college campus with 20,000 undergrads. I don't think it's running low on things for 18-22 year old's to do.
I'm guessing he guarantees starting spots and plays to egos unlike Cal. That's the only thing I can come up with. Cal's record of winning with young bigs and getting them drafted high is second to none, but that appears to have no impact on this year's crop of bigs.
It's not a stretch to compare Bill Self to Tubby Smith when it comes to production alone. But for some reason no one wants to say that especially KU fans. He won a title in his 1st 2-3 yrs & has returned to final 4 once since (which is more than Tubs). But Tubby's had several Elite 8 teams but Self's teams flame out 1st or 2nd round almost every year with the exception of the two I mentioned.
Big 12 titles will only help you keep face for so long.
Big 12 titles will only help you keep face for so long.
It looks like the only truly elite bigs Self has landed are:
Julian Wright (#8 recruit in 2005; drafted #13th in 2007)
Darrell Arthur (#16 recruit in 2006; drafted #27th in 2008)
Joel Embiid (#16 recruit in 2013; drafted #3rd in 2014)
Cliff Alexander (#4 recruit in 2015; projected to go anywhere from #28th to #35th)
The only real success story in there is Embiid.
Meanwhile, Cal can point to his success with Cousins, T. Jones, Davis, Noel, Randle, KAT, WCS, and Lyles.
Julian Wright (#8 recruit in 2005; drafted #13th in 2007)
Darrell Arthur (#16 recruit in 2006; drafted #27th in 2008)
Joel Embiid (#16 recruit in 2013; drafted #3rd in 2014)
Cliff Alexander (#4 recruit in 2015; projected to go anywhere from #28th to #35th)
The only real success story in there is Embiid.
Meanwhile, Cal can point to his success with Cousins, T. Jones, Davis, Noel, Randle, KAT, WCS, and Lyles.
I just looked at the RSCI rankings going back to 2008 and the only big man they've had in the top 10 was Cliff Alexander and we won't know how he'll end up so kinda hard to critique.
There's a misconception that has never really been dispelled for one reason or another that Bill Self develops bigs. I will agree that he gets them drafted, but they never really go anywhere in the NBA. Arguably his best bigs have been Brian Cook (at Illinois), Darrell Arthur, Cole Aldrich, Joel Embiid, Thomas Robinson, Wayne Simien, and the Morris twins (average draft position of #16) . Of those guys, no ones really been an NBA "star".
As for Cal, he's only coached Marcus Camby, DeMarcus Cousins, Patrick Patterson, Terrence Jones, Anthony Davis, Nerlens Noel, and Julius Randle, (average draft position of #7) (*** soon to add Willie Cauley-Stein, Karl Anthony Towns, Trey Lyles, and Dakari Johnson***).
Cal should be the one known for developing bigs, and not Bill Self.
As for Cal, he's only coached Marcus Camby, DeMarcus Cousins, Patrick Patterson, Terrence Jones, Anthony Davis, Nerlens Noel, and Julius Randle, (average draft position of #7) (*** soon to add Willie Cauley-Stein, Karl Anthony Towns, Trey Lyles, and Dakari Johnson***).
Cal should be the one known for developing bigs, and not Bill Self.
^ missed Jeff Whithey for Self, but good lists. It's gets down to the whole recruit/develop argument, which is impossible to resolve. Some players will be amazing no matter what (Davis), some are super talented but can benefit immensely from consistency/development (Cousins, Embiid, Towns), some are raw but athletic (WCS, maybe Robinson?), etc... And for NBA success it's hard to tease out things like size/length, in that someone like Thomas Robinson (maybe Randle, Patterson, Morris twins, Simien) has good enough size for the NCAA but cannot compete at his natural position because he's undersized. World of difference for those types of bigs between the NCAA and NBA.
We all know how sticky narratives are in sports; K just won a title with only freshmen scoring in the second half, but Cal/UK are one and one U. Bill Self will probably forever be known as a big man whisperer.
We all know how sticky narratives are in sports; K just won a title with only freshmen scoring in the second half, but Cal/UK are one and one U. Bill Self will probably forever be known as a big man whisperer.
I mean I know he was a terrible coach and all, but can't John Brady get a little respect for his meager accomplishments? He also had Tyrus Thomas, but he has flamed out in the NBA.
Kebtucky is superior to KU in every way. Lexington is superior to Lawrence, rupp>AFH, the education received is way better, women are hotter, coaching is better, way more exposure, the whole 9 yards
Really, KU should be skimming all Kentuckys leftovers
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