Can Bill Self show his face in Chicago

[CELTICAT]

Coming from a Kentucky fan this really surprises me. I thought the whole "if (name the big time school) landed a player then it must be because they paid him to go there" was limited to the puny little wannabe schools. You do realize all the wannabes say that when Kentucky gets recruits too, don't you?

Right, except for the fact you had a player, who just so happens to be the subject of this thread, that took money and was ruled ineligible. That's the difference. Kansas isn't even the best team in Kansas anymore. That's why you guys are paying recruits.

 

[MWes11]

We have enough players doing well enough in the NBA to keep us entertained if we ever watch some NBA.

And like how UK fans always lean back on their all time title and win counts, we always have the greatest NBA player of all time in Wilt Chamberlain to lean on.

 

[twocoach]

Right, except for the fact you had a player, who just so happens to be the subject of this thread, that took money and was ruled ineligible. That's the difference. Kansas isn't even the best team in Kansas anymore. That's why you guys are paying recruits.

His parents took a loan from a Finance Company, not anyone from Kansas. Nice try, though.

 

[LouievileKat]

Coming from a Kentucky fan this really surprises me. I thought the whole "if (name the big time school) landed a player then it must be because they paid him to go there" was limited to the puny little wannabe schools. You do realize all the wannabes say that when Kentucky gets recruits too, don't you?

Brandon Rush, Josh Selby, Cliff Alexander and the beloved Pump Bros. Kansas just seems so unlucky.

 

[twocoach]

It was the fact that the greatest prospect in over a decade almost lost his top spot, and it just so happens Bill Self was the coach.

Excuses, Please continue them.

As stated, the person he was might have lost his top spot to was the 7 footer that ALSO WAS COACHED BY SELF who developed light years faster than anyone could have imagined. All you're doing is making my point for me.

 

[.S&C.]

Why would it be a surprise if Kansas was paying players.

Kansas has been extremely dirty for decades. Their football program is also extremely dirty. A fact that is rarely told is Kasnas football and basketball combined is probably in the top 3 for most penalized school in history. I will give them one thing, at least they don't act like UNC while doing it.

 

[CELTICAT]

His parents took a loan from a Finance Company, not anyone from Kansas. Nice try, though.

It was a better effort than what Jayhawks put forth against Witchita St, when your merry band of payday loan artists got their shit pushed in

 

[twocoach]

It was the fact that the greatest prospect in over a decade almost lost his top spot, and it just so happens Bill Self was the coach.

Excuses, Please continue them.

Haven't there been about 30 "greatest prospects of the last decade"?

And doesn't ALMOST mean that he DIDN'T?

 

[.S&C.]

As stated, the person he was might have lost his top spot to was the 7 footer that ALSO WAS COACHED BY SELF who developed light years faster than anyone could have imagined. All you're doing is making my point for me.

keep making excuses. Jabari Parker says HE was going to take his spot.

 

[.S&C.]

Haven't there been about 30 "greatest prospects of the last decade"?

And doesn't ALMOST mean that he DIDN'T?

No prospect has been a lock the way Wiggins was projected since Lebron James. Keep tying.

 

[CELTICAT]

Facts established in this thread:

1. Kansas pays players.
2. Bill Self sucks at his job.
3. Wichita St is a bigger college basketball power than KU.
4. Kansas fans are in denial.

 

[MWes11]

You guys are crazy. Who gives a toss. It's friday and almost quitting time. Go drink some bourbon or beers.

 

[.S&C.]

 

[twocoach]

Come to Kansas where you can aspire to do "well enough in the NBA to keep us entertained"

Just sit back and watch the elite players roll in.

Good grief. Look, I would love it if players like Anthony Davis and John Wall rolled through Kansas. That would be fun. But again, it doesn't mean that those players were made great because they went to Kentucky. I get the desire to attach bragging rights to them but it's kinda silly to think their college pit stop had anything to do with their NBA success.

As a college basketball fan first and foremost, I take more pride cheering for the guys that were in the program for several years working their butts off to improve over time than I do for the uber-elite guys that passed through in one quick season. Sure it's fun that my daughter can see Wiggins on a commercial and say "hey, I met him" but I cheer harder for guys like Thomas Robinson, Cole Aldrich and Jeff Withey and the rest of the guys that didn't look like NBA bound players when they first stepped foot on campus. Heck, even Embiid looked like a multi-year project when he first stepped foot on campus but he was an obsessive worker with a sharp mind that soaked in everything his coaches taught him.

 

[LouievileKat]

You guys are crazy. Who gives a toss. It's friday and almost quitting time. Go drink some bourbon or beers.

this is actually a very good point.

 

[twocoach]

Why would it be a surprise if Kansas was paying players.

Kansas has been extremely dirty for decades. Their football program is also extremely dirty. A fact that is rarely told is Kasnas football and basketball combined is probably in the top 3 for most penalized school in history. I will give them one thing, at least they don't act like UNC while doing it.

A conversation between Kansas fans and Kentucky fans about who cheats more is like an argument about which supermodel is hotter.

 

[.S&C.]

A conversation between Kansas fans and Kentucky fans about who cheats more is like an argument about which supermodel is hotter.

Not even close. Hell, Kansas would've had their entire season stripped in 08 alone had you lost the championship game. The NCAA was going after the loser because both had issues. They just don't strip champions.

Kansas is a big time offender. Yes, a bigger offender than UK.

 

[twocoach]

No prospect has been a lock the way Wiggins was projected since Lebron James. Keep tying.

Kinda funny since the #2 pick in the same draft, Jabari Parker, was on the cover of Sports Illustrated as "The Best High School Basketball Player Since LeBron James" but cool story.

http://content.usatoday.com/communi...-gets-sports-illustrated-cover/1#.VY2yAFIp8XE

 

[LouievileKat]

I make jokes about the Pump Brothers because lets be honest its just fun to say. Pump Brothers. It sounds like a title to a Mario Parody you'd find the "back" of your video store back in the late 90s. Even if Bill Self was dirty and was involved in paying players (Which I'm not saying at all). well then good for him. He's ahead of the curve. They deserve it. I would also commend Kansas fans and boosters for caring enough to pay to support the sport they love. Lord knows they're doing a better job than Indiana. The most committed those guys get is a few extra impermissible phone calls and excessively creepy tweets to recruits.

 

[gossie21]

Good grief. Look, I would love it if players like Anthony Davis and John Wall rolled through Kansas. That would be fun. But again, it doesn't mean that those players were made great because they went to Kentucky. I get the desire to attach bragging rights to them but it's kinda silly to think their college pit stop had anything to do with their NBA success.

As a college basketball fan first and foremost, I take more pride cheering for the guys that were in the program for several years working their butts off to improve over time than I do for the uber-elite guys that passed through in one quick season. Sure it's fun that my daughter can see Wiggins on a commercial and say "hey, I met him" but I cheer harder for guys like Thomas Robinson, Cole Aldrich and Jeff Withey and the rest of the guys that didn't look like NBA bound players when they first stepped foot on campus. Heck, even Embiid looked like a multi-year project when he first stepped foot on campus but he was an obsessive worker with a sharp mind that soaked in everything his coaches taught him.

That's cool. Hey, you should tell Wiggins next time you meet him that you don't cheer as hard for him because he only stayed one year.

 

[anon_9qtxg60vqzy0y]

Self has worked and developed a ton of guys. My point was you can't expect Cliff and Selby to get worked and developed into NBA starters in six months, especially when those guys don't buy in.

I'm going to ignore the fact that you're making a "player x did this so player y should do this" analogy that is inherently flawed and say that instead you're referring to guys who played multiple years at Kentucky which gave them time to be developed whereas Selby and Cliff were at KU a time period measured in months. Surely you can see how that's apples to oranges.

The aforementioned UK players were decimated from the Billy Gillispie era. Cal actually worked with them and developed them into NBA Draft picks. Your coach is from the same school of thought as Billy G. Aren't they best friends? Face it, Cal is light years ahead of Self. Deal with the consequences much like you had to deal with the 72-40 beatdown in Indianapolis.

 

[.S&C.]

Kinda funny since the #2 pick in the same draft, Jabari Parker, was on the cover of Sports Illustrated as "The Best High School Basketball Player Since LeBron James" but cool story.

http://content.usatoday.com/communi...-gets-sports-illustrated-cover/1#.VY2yAFIp8XE

lol, that was a stupid article. Sports Illustrated was considered off the mark on that one.

Wiggins was absolutely seen as a freak athlete and the lock for the top pick, which he became. He was seen as the best prospect of a decade. Parker gained some weight and got injured, and Wiggins blossomed the rest of the way.

Again, keep trying.

 

[twocoach]

That's cool. Hey, you should tell Wiggins next time you meet him that you don't cheer as hard for him because he only stayed one year.

We did, every time that Perry Ellis got a bigger ovation than him in pregame introductions.

Most of the fans over the age of 25 like the local kids and the kids that have to put in the work over time to develop into really good players. The under 25 crowd are more inclined to go with the shiny rock star favorites.

 

[twocoach]

lol, that was a stupid article. Sports Illustrated was considered off the mark on that one.

Wiggins was absolutely seen as a freak athlete and the lock for the top pick, which he became. He was seen as the best prospect of a decade. Parker gained some weight and got injured, and Wiggins blossomed the rest of the way.

Again, keep trying.

There isn't anything else to try since he WAS the #1 pick in the draft. Oh, no, the fact that he was too nice of a kid that deferred to his teammates a little too much kept his stats down lower than they could have been. What a terrible coach Bill Self is... What a goofball. I can't believe you're still trying to make a point about what ALMOST happened.

 

[.S&C.]

Facts established in this thread:

1. Kansas pays players.
2. Bill Self sucks at his job.
3. Wichita St is a bigger college basketball power than KU.
4. Kansas fans are in denial.

You forgot.

1.Harrow had NBA lottery standing when he arrived.
2.Poythress was a OAD lock even though he's married to academics and about to have a masters.
3. Johnson was Patrick Ewing and his stock dropped.

 

[coolcat9lives]

"Washed his hands of Cliff?" Here were Cliff's options after the "ncaa incident":

1) Return to school: To be able to return to Kansas to play, Cliff and his family had to sit down with the ncaa and tell them what they did, which would have resulted in Cliff being ruled ineligible to play for most if not all of next year plus have to pay back the amount of the loan they took out just for the right to not get to play. The reason Cliff would return to school would be to improve his draft stock, which everyone knew was in the toilet after he struggled mightily to figure out how to play basketball at the collegiate level for several months. By the time he finally started to get the hang of it, the "ncaa incident" happened and he sat the rest of the year. Can't really improve your draft stock when you cannot actually PLAY, plus they would be out the penalty money PLUS still owe the amount of the loan they need to repay.

2) Go pro: Draft stock sucks but they had no way to improve it available to him. At least now they only have to repay the amount of the loan ONCE (just the loan) instead of TWICE (once to ncaa, once to loan company).

There was literally nothing Self could do for Cliff once him and his moronic family screwed themselves and Kansas by taking out that loan before he ever stepped foot on the KU campus.

“If the ruling is negative, the kid will have no chance to play in the NCAA Tournament. He’ll have no chance to do what he came to college for, he’ll have no chance to help his teammates and all that stuff if all the parties can’t get in the same room and work it out.”

That comment alone lets me know where Bill Self's head is with the whole situation. Thinly veiled statements about "what he came to college for" and him not having a chance to help his teammates and "stuff like that." Self only wanted a ruling so he could have a better shot at succeeding in the NCAA tourney. Not because he had this kid's best interest at heart.

Like I said. Self isn't a developer of elite talent. Cliff goes to Kansas, gets his minutes cut (he's an energy player that needs floor time to be effective) and struggles to perform. Even before the incident Self was not doing the guy any favors in regards to his draft stock. Ultimately he is ruled out of play. Goes from lottery pick to undrafted.

As soon as Self heard of the allegations he removed Alexander from the team to protect Kansas which is to be expected. However, during the entire draft process not once have I seen him come out publicly and champion Cliff's talents or defended him in this NCAA issue. When I say "washed his hands of Cliff" I mean he has effectively removed Cliff Alexander from his basketball consciousness. Then he sends a weak text that basically say "Hey it could be worse kid." Self's coaching and the way he handled the situation cost this kid millions.

Alexander and his family aren't fully in the clear here either but desperation is a strong persuasive agent. As for your comment about how "moronic" they were, how about you pull your head out of the sand. The rule is a relic first and foremost and you might feel a little bit different about taking a loan out if your family was living like the Alexander's. If Cliff comes to school one year later he gets anywhere from 5-10K in permissible benefits from the NCAA!!!

The fact is Self could have went to battle for the kid. As a parent sending your kid to play a sport at a university you expect the coach to take over the "parent" role and protect your kid. You know, try to have his best interest at heart? That is why Self wont get another Chicago talent.

 

[doneitall]

Any player that wants to improve his stock to develop into a good nba player its a no-brainer that Cal is the master.

 

[twocoach]

“If the ruling is negative, the kid will have no chance to play in the NCAA Tournament. He’ll have no chance to do what he came to college for, he’ll have no chance to help his teammates and all that stuff if all the parties can’t get in the same room and work it out.”

That comment alone lets me know where Bill Self's head is with the whole situation. Thinly veiled statements about "what he came to college for" and him not having a chance to help his teammates and "stuff like that." Self only wanted a ruling so he could have a better shot at succeeding in the NCAA tourney. Not because he had this kid's best interest at heart.

Like I said. Self isn't a developer of elite talent. Cliff goes to Kansas, gets his minutes cut (he's an energy player that needs floor time to be effective) and struggles to perform. Even before the incident Self was not doing the guy any favors in regards to his draft stock. Ultimately he is ruled out of play. Goes from lottery pick to undrafted.

As soon as Self heard of the allegations he removed Alexander from the team to protect Kansas which is to be expected. However, during the entire draft process not once have I seen him come out publicly and champion Cliff's talents or defended him in this NCAA issue. When I say "washed his hands of Cliff" I mean he has effectively removed Cliff Alexander from his basketball consciousness. Then he sends a weak text that basically say "Hey it could be worse kid." Self's coaching and the way he handled the situation cost this kid millions.

Alexander and his family aren't fully in the clear here either but desperation is a strong persuasive agent. As for your comment about how "moronic" they were, how about you pull your head out of the sand. The rule is a relic first and foremost and you might feel a little bit different about taking a loan out if your family was living like the Alexander's. If Cliff comes to school one year later he gets anywhere from 5-10K in permissible benefits from the NCAA!!!

The fact is Self could have went to battle for the kid. As a parent sending your kid to play a sport at a university you expect the coach to take over the "parent" role and protect your kid. You know, try to have his best interest at heart? That is why Self wont get another Chicago talent.

Why would Self champion Self's talents? Claiming that Cliff was ready to be an NBA player would be a flat out LIE. He isn't yet. Self knows it. You know it. the NBA teams that chose not to draft him know it. Hell, CLIFF knows it. Cliff and his family removed HIMSELF from the Kansas basketball family by their failure to hold up their end of the relationship. They failed at every step of the process. At some point there is nothing more a coach can do to help hose that cannot help themselves.

Whether you agree with the rule or not is totally irrelevant. The rule exists. The rule was clearly stated to Cliff and every other recruit as soon as they announce their intention to attend a school. So the parents were either too stupid to understand the rule despite being told numerous times and despite the fact that they are provided ample resources to HELP them understand the rule or they knew they were doing something wrong and chose to do it anyways (much more likely). Either option makes them morons.

Every recruit is told that if they have ANY questions about anything that has anything to do with money or loans or agents that they are to call the compliance department immediately to ensure that they are operating within the rules. All they had to do was to call the compliance department or any member of the coaching staff or athletic department before they signed the loan papers. They chose not to.

"As a parent sending your kid to play a sport at a university you expect the coach to take over the "parent" role and protect your kid." You do realize it was CLIFF'S PARENTS that totally screwed their kids options, right? Not Self. CLIFF'S PARENTS. Just stop. You're trying too hard to make this into something it's not. KU will still recruit Chicago and any other part of the country just fine.

 

[twocoach]

Any player that wants to improve his stock to develop into a good nba player its a no-brainer that Cal is the master.

Tell that to the Harrison twins and Dakari and Poythress.

 

[Macy's socks]

We have enough players doing well enough in the NBA to keep us entertained if we ever watch some NBA.

And like how UK fans always lean back on their all time title and win counts, we always have the greatest NBA player of all time in Wilt Chamberlain to lean on.

Wilt went to Kansas? I did not know that.

 

[twocoach]

Wilt went to Kansas? I did not know that.

I assume you're either 12 years old or kidding.

 

[.S&C.]

Tell that to the Harrison twins and Dakari and Poythress.

You're an idiot. Everytime you say Poythress I just want you know you're just mad and spouting nonsense. It really shows you are clueless on the topic.

Little bro, take a nap.

 

[twocoach]

You're an idiot. Everytime you say Poythress I just want youth know you're mad and spouting nonsense. It really shows you are clueless on the topic.

Little bro, take a nap.

Poythress was a Top 10 recruit, which is my point. He isn't going to be a lottery pick after FOUR years at Kentucky, let alone after ONE.

 

[.S&C.]

Poythress was a Top 10 recruit, which is my point. He isn't going to be a lottery pick after FOUR years at Kentucky, let alone after ONE.

Little Bro, Keeping Poythress out of study hall and in the gym is the goal.

If I start a topic on "UK vs. Kansas - a historical tribute" would you and kiimo take part so we could discuss something that would actually be a lot more entertaining.That would kind of be like holding you against the wall by your face until you piss your pants, while you try and throw your arms around in an attempt to hit back.

 

[will1976]

The only part I care in this is the enjoyment of not having to worry about recruiting against Bill Self in Chi Town again. Well the hair piece does come to mind..

 

[twocoach]

Look, all I am saying is that if Self sucks as you say because he did not "develop" Top 10 recruit Selby into a lottery pick in one season despite the fact that he played in only 26 games his one year at KU due to ncaa issues from something he did before he ever stepped foot on campus and a midseason foot injury and he didn't "develop" Top 10 recruit Cliff Alexander into a lottery pick in one season despite the fact that he only played in 28 games due to ncaa issues from something he did before he ever stepped foot on campus then it should be pointed out that "The Master" Coach Cal did not develop either Top 10 recruit Harrison twin into a lottery pick after two seasons and 79 games of experience and he did not develop Top 10 recruit Dakari Johnson into a lottery pick after two seasons and 78 games of experience and he won't be developing Top 10 recruit Alex Poythress into a lottery pick after 4 seasons and what will be more than 110 games of experience. That's all.

 

[twocoach]

Little Bro, Keeping Poythress out of study hall and in the gym is the goal.

If I start a topic on "UK vs. Kansas - a historical tribute" would you and kiimo take part so we could discuss something that would actually be a lot more entertaining.That would kind of be like holding you against the wall by your face until you piss your pants, while you try and throw your arms around in an attempt to hit back.

Ah, internet tough guys. Always the best... I love how the strength of a basketball team magically gets passed down to their fans.

 

[kybassfan]

Poythress was a Top 10 recruit, which is my point. He isn't going to be a lottery pick after FOUR years at Kentucky, let alone after ONE.

Ok, I'm guessing not at the top of the class? Your posts on the Pat Forde thread suggested you might face some challenges with coherency. I see you are front of the line in consistency, however. Bravo.

Poythress is a three year degree with an ACL injury. Essentially, the kid's face is next to the definition of student-athlete in Websters. Exactly what is your point if he's NOT a lottery pick? Oh, maybe it was Cal tripped him in practice? That is about your speed. Stein is a three year player that's was not a top ten recruit. If memory serves, he was not a total failure in the draft. Let me know if you have trouble finding it, I can instruct you on the finer points of google. We won't mention Wall, Davis, Cousins, Bledsoe and a few others that are managing to stay out of the unemployment line.

When you try to make water, avoid the fan.

 

[Fancatstik]

After reading through most of this thread the twocoach guy has made me see the light. Bill Self > Cal.

 

[McThick]

He was the #12 ranked prospect coming out of high school. So he may not have been considered an "elite NBA prospect" but he was definitely an NBA prospect.

Lol at this thread. You can pick guys from any team, any coach and say the same things. Sherron Collins was a hell of a great college player, but never considered a high pick in the draft. His problem was his sweet tooth, he gained a bunch of weight after he graduated. His weight was a problem his entire career and NBA teams weren't going to take a chance on that. He showed laziness and lack of will power. How is that on Self?