Can Bill Self show his face in Chicago

[.S&C.]

TRob has not set the NBA on fire it is true but he did get drafted #5 and isn't that what the question was about? Not how they perform in the NBA but where they get drafted? There are guys playing well. Markieff Morris is playing at a high level. We haven't seen Embiid yet but we will. Obviously guys like ADavis are playing much better, but nobody compares to UK for NBA talent.

I know you guys want to blame Self, that's just the nature of fandom. But if Cliff, Selby and Sherron are your examples one year removed from the #1 and #3 picks being Kansas guys well your argument is pretty flawed. I know, here comes the Excuse Train but...

Sherron Collins is 5'11 in shoes and like the SECOND he graduated he turned into a bowling ball. KU made radio commercials in Lawrence while he was there that no fast food restaurant was allowed to serve him. That's real. He can still ball, he just played in the scrimmage but you should see how fat he is.

Cliff and Selby played partial years and had injuries. Cliff threw his career away. He showed up at KU with like, no fundamentals. He can dunk and block everything and in highschool he never had to do anything else. He needed a year or two to develop simple skills that most guys know. He had terrible footwork and couldn't handle double teams or defensive assignments. He was going to work on that but oops his family screwed that up for him. It's sad.

When you go to a college and get six months of training before dribbling your career down your leg it isn't Self that has ruined it. Those guys had serious flaws in their game and needed more than six months to fix them, but the ranking system tells them they are NBA-bound so they leave and you see what that gets them.

Blaming Self for these guys is silly.

The point is Self and Kasnas have tried to imitate Cal and Uk's approach for a while now and you know it. There's no shame in it, the system works. It does however become annoying every time little step brothers try to imitate. Self and player development is below par. I'm sorry the media and UK fans have to be the ones to break that to you.

 

[twocoach]

After what he has done to Cliff Alexander? I cannot see him recruiting there again.

Is Cal responsible for Harrison not getting drafted? No, obviously not. Good grief. I thought Kentucky was an informed fan base that understands the college basketball game. My bad.

Cliff Alexander was too stupid to understand what his assignment was on defense and too slow footed to be able to execute what little he did understand. He is an example of a player who dominated in high school purely due to the fact that he was bigger than his opponent in high school. Combine with the train wreck his family created for him that derailed his season at Kansas just as he seemed to be figuring things out. Self had nothing to do with how Cliff's season ended up.

 

[twocoach]

The point is Self and Kasnas have tried to imitate Cal and Uk's approach for a while now and you know it. There's no shame in it, the system works. It does however become annoying every time little step brothers try to imitate. Self and player development is below par. I'm sorry the media and UK fans have to be the ones to break that to you.

What the f--- are you talking about? Self has DEVELOPED far more players to the NBA than Cal. Getting a guy to the NBA in one year isn't development, it's recruiting great players. Getting a decent player to the NBA after three seasons is DEVELOPMENT and few have done that better than Self, Cal included.

 

[twocoach]

If I considered my self a one-and-done kid, and I was trying to choose between UK and Kansas, this would be a helpful little list to refer to.

Calipari:
2008 - Derrick Rose #1
2009 - Tyreke Evans #4
2010 - John Wall #1, Cousins #5, Bledsoe #18, and Orton #29
2011 - Kanter #3 and Knight #8
2012 - Davis #1, MKG #2, and Teague #29
2013 - Noel #6, Goodwin #29
2014 - Randle #7, James Young #17
2015 - Towns #1, Lyles #12, and Booker #13

Self:
2010 - Xavier Henry #12
2011 - Josh Selby #49
2013 - Ben McLemore* (redshirt freshman) #7
2014 - Wiggins #1, Embiid #3
2015 - Oubre #15 , Alexander UNDRAFTED

To break that down.
Cal: 13 lottery picks, 8 in the top-5. None 2nd round or UNDRAFTED
Self: 4 lottery picks, 2 in the top-5. 1 second round and 1 UNDRAFTED

you fail to mention that the Harrison twins and Poythress all considered themselves to be OAD caliber players as well.

 

[twocoach]

Tell us then, what is Bill Self's strongest argument for developing NBA talent? He's got Wiggins who I think will be a superstar. Then who is next? Or is everybody else just a poor worker with physical limitations, low fundamentals, and no work ethic?

There is some stupid belief that what a player does once he gets to the NBA somehow reflects on who is college coach was. That couldn't be more uninformed. NBA starts aren't made starts by their college coaches. They are made stars by the good genetics they receive from their parents and a lifetime of hard work before, during and after college. A college coach is only responsible for getting guys to the maximum potential while they are in college.

If you don't think getting Thomas Robinson to runner up NPOY in college and a Top 5 pick or getting a guy like Jeff Withey or Cole Aldrich or the Morris twins to the NBA is good development of a player then there is nothing I can do for you because you obviously don't have a clue what the definition of development is.

 

[WildMoon]

Twocoach is angry and stupid.

Let's watch him blah blah for few more posts.

 

[BigKari]

Bill Self also turned the #12 overall ranked Sherron Collins into an undrafted player who could only get a cup of coffee in the NBA.

That's 2 high profile prospects out of Chicago that Self failed to get drafted.

I sat across the aisle from Collins at the Champions Classic game. Hes about 5'10 and stocky, looks nothing like an NBA PG. Talented college player, but just lacked the tools needed.

 

[twocoach]

Twocoach is angry and stupid.

Let's watch him blah blah for few more posts.

What on earth would I be angry about? Kansas is already on the floor playing basketball games so the horrible monotony of the offseason has been broken up. Life is great!

 

[twocoach]

I sat across the aisle from Collins at the Champions Classic game. Hes about 5'10 and stocky, looks nothing like an NBA PG. Talented college player, but just lacked the tools needed.

Aren't you aware? Apparently Bill Self is responsible for Collins being short and stocky. The same as he is responsible for Cliff being the child of stupid parents who inherited their limited brain functionality.

 

[.S&C.]

What the f--- are you talking about? Self has DEVELOPED far more players to the NBA than Cal. Getting a guy to the NBA in one year isn't development, it's recruiting great players. Getting a decent player to the NBA after three seasons is DEVELOPMENT and few have done that better than Self, Cal included.

Read the first sentence half wit. I was actually referencing the studs.

Cal has done a fantastic job of developing his under-stared players, we just don't recruit many of them. And actually, I do believe Cal helps develop some of these kids leaving early, as has been said by many of them. There are plenty of things Cal teaches them here that they take with them.

Damn, don't let me forget. Uconn has more championships than Kansas. Florida will tie with ONE more. And your record against UK is 6-22. It's damn near laughable to call you a blue blood and makes us all look bad.

 

[.S&C.]

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Bomani JonesVerified account‏@bomani_jones
just realized cliff alexander didn’t get drafted. self is the anti-cal for these one-and-done guys, isn’t he?

I mean, we aren't just making this ish up chicken hawks.

 

[Kiimohawk]

Your hatred of Kansas and lack of reason derails every thread you post in.

 

[twocoach]

Read the first sentence half wit. I was actually referencing the studs.

Cal has done a fantastic job of developing his under-stared players, we just don't recruit many of them. And actually, I do believe Cal helps develop some of these kids leaving early, as has been said by many of them. There are plenty of things Cal teaches them here that they take with them.

Damn, don't let me forget. Uconn has more championships than Kansas. Florida will tie with ONE more. And your record against UK is 6-22. It's damn near laughable to call you a blue blood and makes us all look bad.

Self's percentage of Top 10 recruits that didn't get drafted in the lottery is about the same as Calipari's. Harrison twins? Nope and Nope. Poythress? Won't be. Dakari Johnson? Nope. That's more Top 10 recruits that failed to be lottery picks than Self has had in 12 seasons at Kansas. Selby and Cliff and THAT'S IT.

 

[JustthefaxMa'am]

What on earth would I be angry about? Kansas is already on the floor playing basketball games so the horrible monotony of the offseason has been broken up. Life is great!

I've been watching ESPN and FOX Sports all week and haven't seen anything about ku playing ball. Odd...

 

[BigKari]

Aren't you aware? Apparently Bill Self is responsible for Collins being short and stocky. The same as he is responsible for Cliff being the child of stupid parents who inherited their limited brain functionality.

You are making some decent points in defense of Self TwoCoach. But does it strike you as lucky that Cal has avoided players like Alexander and Selby? I know we were involved with both players but clearly went in different directions with both. I don't think it's luck that we "missed" on those guys.

Self is basically what the media trys to make Cal out to be. Self is the one who will sell his soul for a recruit. Self is trying to emulate Cal, but its not nearly as easy as Coach Cal makes it look. Also, we've never had a 1 and done not get drafted in the first round, which again proves Cal only has the players best interests at heart. Some of our dumber fans hated Archie Goodwin, but he'll be in the league for another 12 years. His struggles at UK were mainly because he was our entire backcourt.

 

[JustthefaxMa'am]

There's no defense of Self's early outs in the tourney. Plain and simple. Nt

 

[BigKari]

Self's percentage of Top 10 recruits that didn't get drafted in the lottery is about the same as Calipari's. Harrison twins? Nope and Nope. Poythress? Won't be. Dakari Johnson? Nope. That's more Top 10 recruits that failed to be lottery picks than Self has had in 12 seasons at Kansas. Selby and Cliff and THAT'S IT.

But doesn't UK have a larger sample size of top 10 recruits? You kind of definitely have to take that into consideration. As for the Twins, I don't understand Andrew not being a first rounder. Big time winner at point guard. Went 67-12 (84.8%) and lead his team to a National Runner-Up and a Final 4. Then a bunch of SGs were taken in the 2nd round who just aren't as good as Aaron, straight up.

 

[twocoach]

You are making some decent points in defense of Self TwoCoach. But does it strike you as lucky that Cal has avoided players like Alexander and Selby? I know we were involved with both players but clearly went in different directions with both. I don't think it's luck that we "missed" on those guys.

Self is basically what the media trys to make Cal out to be. Self is the one who will sell his soul for a recruit. Self is trying to emulate Cal, but its not nearly as easy as Coach Cal makes it look. Also, we've never had a 1 and done not get drafted in the first round, which again proves Cal only has the players best interests at heart. Some of our dumber fans hated Archie Goodwin, but he'll be in the league for another 12 years. His struggles at UK were mainly because he was our entire backcourt.

Eh, didn't Top 10 recruit Aaron Harrison go undrafted? At least Selby was drafted. Didn't Top 10 Dakari Johnson go nearly undrafted? Didn't Kentucky have a roster full of talented recruits that didn't buy into what Cal was selling that led them to the NIT? Kentucky hasn't avoided any of this.

And what is this "sell his soul for a recruit" you are talking about? He goes after a huge chunk of the top recruits that he thinks will help his team win just the same as Cal and Coach K and Ol' Roy. How is he selling his soul to get them?

And Cliff was only a OAD because his parents are morons and got him into trouble that prevented him from being able to return to school. He 100% would have been back to school if he was allowed to.

 

[.S&C.]

Self's percentage of Top 10 recruits that didn't get drafted in the lottery is about the same as Calipari's. Harrison twins? Nope and Nope. Poythress? Won't be. Dakari Johnson? Nope. That's more Top 10 recruits that failed to be lottery picks than Self has had in 12 seasons at Kansas. Selby and Cliff and THAT'S IT.

I don't hate Kansas. I'm entertained by Kansas. We own you like a cheap whore. It's entertaining just watching your insecure program try and keep up to a respectable level. Had you not been playing basketball since the clouds of dust formed in our solar system, you wouldn't even be considered a blue blood now. If you hand't won the luckiest championship in the history of sports, your claim to a blue blood might already be over. Your ONLY claim to being a real top 5 blue blood is the amount of games you've played. that's it.

I can actually carry a conversation with a Duke fan or some UCLA fan. But Kansas fans just have that annoying little step bro syndrome that needs to be smacked in the mouth. The two worst fan bases to talk to if you are a UK fan are the traditional little brothers. Louisville and Kansas.

 

[LouievileKat]

As long as Bill is cutting the checks he can go anywhere

Bill / Pump Brothers... same thing really.

 

[UKWildcats#8]

I don't hate Kansas. I'm entertained by Kansas. We own you like a cheap whore. It's entertaining just watching your insecure program try and keep up to a respectable level. Had you not been playing basketball since the clouds of dust formed in our solar system, you wouldn't even be considered a blue blood now. If you hand't won the luckiest championship in the history of sports, your claim to a blue blood might already be over. Your ONLY claim to being a real top 5 blue blood is the amount of games you've played. that's it.

I can actually carry a conversation with a Duke fan or some UCLA fan. But Kansas fans just have that annoying little step bro syndrome that needs to be smacked in the mouth. The two worst fan bases to talk to if you are a UK fan are the traditional little brothers. Louisville and Kansas.

This is all very true.

 

[twocoach]

But doesn't UK have a larger sample size of top 10 recruits? You kind of definitely have to take that into consideration. As for the Twins, I don't understand Andrew not being a first rounder. Big time winner at point guard. Went 67-12 (84.8%) and lead his team to a National Runner-Up and a Final 4. Then a bunch of SGs were taken in the 2nd round who just aren't as good as Aaron, straight up.

The percentages of Top 10 recruits that didn't go in the lottery are very close. I posted it here before but I don't remember where. Regardless, simpletons like Bomani Jones make it sound like Self and Kansas are where good recruits go and get worse without spending two seconds actually thinking about it and looking at a case by case basis. Selby had NO BUSINESS going to the NBA after one season and Self told him this over and over and over. Cliff had NO BUSINESS going to the NBA but his ignorant parents took out a loan that as a result he would have likely had to sit out almost all of next season as punishment if he had decided to come back. Can't really raise your draft stock sitting on the bench in street clothes. If both players had gone back to school like Self wanted them to and been able to continue to develop like the Harrison twins and Dakari Johnson and WCS all chose to do, then there is no doubt that we aren't having this stupid conversation.

Self cannot prevent stupid people from making stupid decisions. He is an excellent coach but he isn't God. And quite honestly, even God cannot do that.

 

[twocoach]

As long as Bill is cutting the checks he can go anywhere

Coming from a Kentucky fan this really surprises me. I thought the whole "if (name the big time school) landed a player then it must be because they paid him to go there" was limited to the puny little wannabe schools. You do realize all the wannabes say that when Kentucky gets recruits too, don't you?

 

[BigKari]

Eh, didn't Top 10 recruit Aaron Harrison go undrafted? At least Selby was drafted. Didn't Top 10 Dakari Johnson go nearly undrafted? Didn't Kentucky have a roster full of talented recruits that didn't buy into what Cal was selling that led them to the NIT? Kentucky hasn't avoided any of this.

And what is this "sell his soul for a recruit" you are talking about? He goes after a huge chunk of the top recruits that he thinks will help his team win just the same as Cal and Coach K and Ol' Roy. How is he selling his soul to get them?

And Cliff was only a OAD because his parents are morons and got him into trouble that prevented him from being able to return to school. He 100% would have been back to school if he was allowed to.

The soul selling is in reference to the negative recruiting and the employment of Jerrance Howard. Kansas LIES to recruits. I'm not saying they blatantly cheat, but they are a sad bunch.

 

[gossie21]

you fail to mention that the Harrison twins and Poythress all considered themselves to be OAD caliber players as well.

They must have been really confused when they showed up on campus for a second/third year then.

 

[WitnessGreatness]

If I see one more person use Wiggins as a example for Self and one and dones... He was deemed the best high school prospect since LeBron James before he set foot on campus. He could have sat out the whole year and as long as he didn't completely ish the bed at Kansas he was going number 1. Self really had nothing to do with Wiggins and the fact that there was discussion if Wiggins should go number 1 enhances the argument against Self and one and dones

 

[gossie21]

There is some stupid belief that what a player does once he gets to the NBA somehow reflects on who is college coach was. That couldn't be more uninformed. NBA starts aren't made starts by their college coaches. They are made stars by the good genetics they receive from their parents and a lifetime of hard work before, during and after college. A college coach is only responsible for getting guys to the maximum potential while they are in college.

If you don't think getting Thomas Robinson to runner up NPOY in college and a Top 5 pick or getting a guy like Jeff Withey or Cole Aldrich or the Morris twins to the NBA is good development of a player then there is nothing I can do for you because you obviously don't have a clue what the definition of development is.

That's a convenient opinion for a fan of a school who's alumni do very little in the NBA.

 

[twocoach]

I honestly don't think Self can go back in Chicago to recruit 5 star talent. He is not a great developer of elite prospects and really hasn't ever been. I think the most glaring part of this is how he washed his hands of Cliff after the NCAA incident. If I'm a parent of a Chicago recruit or any recruit for that matter, I look at that more so than the draft stock.

"Washed his hands of Cliff?" Here were Cliff's options after the "ncaa incident":

1) Return to school: To be able to return to Kansas to play, Cliff and his family had to sit down with the ncaa and tell them what they did, which would have resulted in Cliff being ruled ineligible to play for most if not all of next year plus have to pay back the amount of the loan they took out just for the right to not get to play. The reason Cliff would return to school would be to improve his draft stock, which everyone knew was in the toilet after he struggled mightily to figure out how to play basketball at the collegiate level for several months. By the time he finally started to get the hang of it, the "ncaa incident" happened and he sat the rest of the year. Can't really improve your draft stock when you cannot actually PLAY, plus they would be out the penalty money PLUS still owe the amount of the loan they need to repay.

2) Go pro: Draft stock sucks but they had no way to improve it available to him. At least now they only have to repay the amount of the loan ONCE (just the loan) instead of TWICE (once to ncaa, once to loan company).

There was literally nothing Self could do for Cliff once him and his moronic family screwed themselves and Kansas by taking out that loan before he ever stepped foot on the KU campus.

 

[.S&C.]

Why does this idiot keep saying Poythress was a OAD prospect? All accounts from him and his parents were he wasn't interested in the NBA after one year. He actually came into Kentucky with the idea that he was going to graduate.

If you want to use the Twins, fine. But Using Poythress just shows you're talking about things you have no damn clue about.

 

[WitnessGreatness]

Was Dakari ever projected as a potential lottery pick as a one and done before he set foot on campus? I would be highly shocked if he was since he isn't the type of athlete that would be a lottery pick

 

[.S&C.]

If I see one more person use Wiggins as a example for Self and one and dones... He was deemed the best high school prospect since LeBron James before he set foot on campus. He could have sat out the whole year and as long as he didn't completely ish the bed at Kansas he wasn't going number 1. Self really had nothing to do with Wiggins and the fact that there was discussion if Wiggins should go number 1 enhances the argument against Self and one and dones

I said this from day one. The fact that Wiggins nearly fell off the table as the top pick was all the proof I needed. At the time I couldn't believe it wasn't more news worthy.

 

[gossie21]

Why does this idiot keep saying Poythress was a OAD prospect? All accounts from him and his parents were he wasn't interested in the NBA after one year. He actually came into Kentucky with the idea that he was going to graduate.

If you want to use the Twins, fine. But Using Poythress just shows you're talking about things you have no damn clue about.

Well your first clue should have been that he was a Kansas fan engaging in a discussion about the NBA draft.

 

[twocoach]

That's a convenient opinion for a fan of a school who's alumni do very little in the NBA.

We have enough players doing well enough in the NBA to keep us entertained if we ever watch some NBA.

And like how UK fans always lean back on their all time title and win counts, we always have the greatest NBA player of all time in Wilt Chamberlain to lean on.

 

[gossie21]

Was Dakari ever projected as a potential lottery pick as a one and done before he set foot on campus? I would be highly shocked if he was since he isn't the type of athlete that would be a lottery pick

Nope. He was however listed at the end of the 1st round at points during his Freshman year, and even occasionally this offseason as well.

 

[.S&C.]

Well your first clue should have been that he was a Kansas fan engaging in a discussion about the NBA draft.

 

[twocoach]

I said this from day one. The fact that Wiggins nearly fell off the table as the top pick was all the proof I needed. At the time I couldn't believe it wasn't more news worthy.

Fell off the table? What do you mean? The only way Wiggins wasn't going to be #1 was if Embiid doesn't get injured and then HE was going to go #1. Not sure how Kansas comes out of THAT looking bad but whatever.

 

[.S&C.]

We have enough players doing well enough in the NBA to keep us entertained if we ever watch some NBA.

And like how UK fans always lean back on their all time title and win counts, we always have the greatest NBA player of all time in Wilt Chamberlain to lean on.

It's like I always say, nothing says Kansas basketball like a pair of knee pads.

Those knee pads also come in handy when playing with UK.

 

[gossie21]

We have enough players doing well enough in the NBA to keep us entertained if we ever watch some NBA.

And like how UK fans always lean back on their all time title and win counts, we always have the greatest NBA player of all time in Wilt Chamberlain to lean on.

Come to Kansas where you can aspire to do "well enough in the NBA to keep us entertained"

Just sit back and watch the elite players roll in.

 

[.S&C.]

Fell off the table? What do you mean? The only way Wiggins wasn't going to be #1 was if Embiid doesn't get injured and then HE was going to go #1. Not sure how Kansas comes out of THAT looking bad but whatever.

It was the fact that the greatest prospect in over a decade almost lost his top spot, and it just so happens Bill Self was the coach.

Excuses, Please continue them.

 

[.S&C.]

Fell off the table? What do you mean? The only way Wiggins wasn't going to be #1 was if Embiid doesn't get injured and then HE was going to go #1. Not sure how Kansas comes out of THAT looking bad but whatever.

Knee pad, get knees burn and huddle up. Figure out how you're going to fend off traditional power Florida from taking your championships total.

Fell off the table AS THE TOP PICK. lol. dang.