Cal's fault we might lose the all-time wins lead??

[Dubya C Dubya]

I'd argue that we'd have lost it long ago had he not been here the last 12 years.

He's averaged 28 wins coming into this year. Tubby averaged 26.3 wins. Gillespie averaged 20 wins in his two seasons.

So people actually believe that we would have averaged MORE than 28 wins PER YEAR over the last 12 years with another coach or possibly 2 other coaches? Laughable. With the beginning of those 12 years being a total rebuild that we would have come NO WHERE close to being 102-14 over the first three years? Hilarious.

Last year was atrocious, but he more than made up for it by keeping us from 1 or 2 miserable years after Gillespie. We would have lost the all-time lead years ago had he not come here and brought instant success.

And as someone else mentioned, Kansas has played 200 more games.......so the whole argument is a straw man.

* Sorry to interrupt the middle school lunch room table discussion about how Wheeler is soft and back in the day some guy had 2 concussions, laughed them off, and then proceeded to go for a 72 yard rip to win the 6A High School championship...... and then marry the homecoming queen on the way out. #gibberish

 

[Smashcat]

And as some else mentioned, Kansas has played 200 more games.

👍

 

[UKWildcats1987]

Kansas has been picking up wins big time on uk since the modern 64 team era. This is nothing new. I think it's like plus 100 since 86.

The fact they have played so many more games is telling as well. Last year hurt for sure but so did 89 and 90 seasons.

 

[Louis_Skunt]

Self > Cal in regular season
Cal > Self in March & April

Sucks, but ill take it.

 

[TJWalkersBurner]

Can someone look up where things stood between UK and Kansas when Cal took over?

Also would be interesting to know the total wins across the major programs/coaches during that timeframe (Cal, k, self, Roy, Jay Wright, etc.)

 

[The_Answer1313]

I believe we've won like 76% of our games.

I believe KU has won something like 72% of their games.

I'll take 76% over 72% any day of the week.

 

[Tubbyfan78]

I'd argue that we'd have lost it long ago had he not been here the last 12 years.

He's averaged 28 wins coming into this year. Tubby averaged 26.3 wins. Gillespie averaged 20 wins in his two seasons.

So people actually believe that we would have averaged MORE than 28 wins PER YEAR over the last 12 years with another coach or possibly 2 other coaches? Laughable. With the beginning of those 12 years being a total rebuild that we would have come NO WHERE close to being 102-14 over the first three years? Hilarious.

Last year was atrocious, but he more than made up for it by keeping us from 1 or 2 miserable years after Gillespie. We would have lost the all-time lead years ago had he not come here and brought instant success.

And as someone else mentioned, Kansas has played 200 more games.......so the whole argument is a straw man.

* Sorry to interrupt the middle school lunch room table-level discussion about how Wheeler is soft and back in the day some guy had 2 concussions, didn't complain, and proceeded to go for a 72 yard rip to win the 6A championship and marry the homecoming queen on the way out. #gibberish

It drives me crazy when people cherry pick statistics. Statistics without definition are just numbers. Statistically, Cal has been a great coach overall. Probably the 3rd best we’ve ever had. However, the stats also say over the last 5 years the decline has been steep and Cal has performed at or below the average for UK in that period. I haven’t spent the hours necessary to do a complete statistical evaluation but even on the surface level, those two things are obvious.

 

[crawfords corner]

It's actually around 140 games that KU has played more than UK. They played 42 games before UK started. Another about 30 games during the first 3 years UK played. Then probably more after that, but I didn't feel like counting anymore.

 

[The_Answer1313]

Lets say 140 times the historical win rate of 76%.

We are looking at another 105 wins or so.

 

[Dubya C Dubya]

It drives me crazy when people cherry pick statistics. Statistics without definition are just numbers. Statistically, Cal has been a great coach overall. Probably the 3rd best we’ve ever had. However, the stats also say over the last 5 years the decline has been steep and Cal has performed at or below the average for UK in that period. I haven’t spent the hours necessary to do a complete statistical evaluation but even on the surface level, those two things are obvious.

This thread pertains to all-time wins, not just the last five years. So you cherry pick the last five years but leave out the first five years where we would have went through a rebuild and had a fraction of the success that we had instantly. Cool. smh

 

[bnewt]

I'd argue that we'd have lost it long ago had he not been here the last 12 years.

He's averaged 28 wins coming into this year. Tubby averaged 26.3 wins. Gillespie averaged 20 wins in his two seasons.

So people actually believe that we would have averaged MORE than 28 wins PER YEAR over the last 12 years with another coach or possibly 2 other coaches? Laughable. With the beginning of those 12 years being a total rebuild that we would have come NO WHERE close to being 102-14 over the first three years? Hilarious.

Last year was atrocious, but he more than made up for it by keeping us from 1 or 2 miserable years after Gillespie. We would have lost the all-time lead years ago had he not come here and brought instant success.

And as someone else mentioned, Kansas has played 200 more games.......so the whole argument is a straw man.

* Sorry to interrupt the middle school lunch room table-level discussion about how Wheeler is soft and back in the day some guy had 2 concussions, didn't complain, and proceeded to go for a 72 yard rip to win the 6A championship and marry the homecoming queen on the way out. #gibberish

Funny it wasn't a straw man when UK over took unc, it was a big deal
Now that your favorite coach is about to puke it up, it's nothing

 

[Dubya C Dubya]

Funny it wasn't a straw man when UK over took unc, it was a big deal
Now that your favorite coach is about to puke it up, it's nothing

I guess "deceptive argument" is a better choice of words than straw man since they've played 200 more games than us.

 

[Tubbyfan78]

This thread pertains to all-time wins, not just the last five years. So you cherry pick the last five years but leave out the first five years where we would have went through a rebuild and had a fraction of the success that we had instantly. Cool. smh

ok, what point are you trying to make? Please do not try to explain stats to me. I have a masters in actuarial accounting and have been a licensed actuary for 19 years.

 

[The_Answer1313]

This thread pertains to all-time wins, not just the last five years. So you cherry pick the last five years but leave out the first five years where we would have went through a rebuild and had a fraction of the success that we had instantly. Cool. smh

Exactly.

The poster mentions he hates cherry picking statistics and then goes on to use the last five years to somehow make a point.

The entire thread is about ALL TIME WINS. All of Cals wins count. Just like all of Tubby, Pitino, Hall, Rupp etc.

 

[Dubya C Dubya]

ok, what point are you trying to make? Please do not try to explain stats to me. I have a masters in actuarial accounting and have been a licensed actuary for 19 years.

My point is that you are accusing me of cherry picking......while cherry picking. Statisticians can be hypocrites as well, it seems.

 

[bthaunert]

Can someone look up where things stood between UK and Kansas when Cal took over?

Also would be interesting to know the total wins across the major programs/coaches during that timeframe (Cal, k, self, Roy, Jay Wright, etc.)

I believe we had a 13 game lead on KU prior to the 09-10 season if I reading this correctly from an article:

“In 2005, Kentucky had a solid lead in the win column with 1,900 all-time to Kansas’ 1,850…From 2005-09, KU gained 37 wins on Kentucky”

So, I believe we had a 13 game lead when Cal arrived. So, we lost 9 in the win column from the 09-10 season to the 20-21 season. Less than a game a year on average. They actually gained 6 games on us in the 10-11 season, but we went to the Final Four and they didn’t.

 

[Tubbyfan78]

My point is that you are accusing me of cherry picking......while cherry picking. Statisticians can be hypocrites as well, it seems.

No, what point are you trying to make with your original post?

 

[UKWildcats1987]

I believe we had a 13 game lead on KU prior to the 09-10 season if I reading this correctly from an article:

“In 2005, Kentucky had a solid lead in the win column with 1,900 all-time to Kansas’ 1,850…From 2005-09, KU gained 37 wins on Kentucky”

So, I believe we had a 13 game lead when Cal arrived. So, we lost 9 in the win column from the 09-10 season to the 20-21 season. Less than a game a year on average. They actually gained 6 games on us in the 10-11 season, but we went to the Final Four and they didn’t.

So they gained about 87 of those 100 games since 1986 pre calipari. So in 36 seasons cal has been here 13 and lost some games but from 86 to 2009 we lost like 87 games to them.

Last years bad season essentially is the reason they have any net gain on uk during caliparis tenure at all.

 

[bbncal02]

Does cheating to win make those games less or more viable than ours?

 

[Wildcats1st]

Exactly.

The poster mentions he hates cherry picking statistics and then goes on to use the last five years to somehow make a point.

The entire thread is about ALL TIME WINS. All of Cals wins count. Just like all of Tubby, Pitino, Hall, Rupp etc.

I’m not going to cherry pick anything. Cals the coach and we re gonna fall to second. This on the heels of all time losing season so hell yes it’s Cals fault. Cal came in pumping catching UcLa when in fact he’s gonna drop us to 2 in wins. Cmon people this is straight forward. Last season put 5 years of damage on our program it completely offset the natty.

 

[cats#1again]

It drives me crazy when people cherry pick statistics. Statistics without definition are just numbers. Statistically, Cal has been a great coach overall. Probably the 3rd best we’ve ever had. However, the stats also say over the last 5 years the decline has been steep and Cal has performed at or below the average for UK in that period. I haven’t spent the hours necessary to do a complete statistical evaluation but even on the surface level, those two things are obvious.

3 out of those 6 seasons we had a team that was either in elite 8 or def would have been. That's not below UK standards before cal got here

 

[cats#1again]

I’m not going to cherry pick anything. Cals the coach and we re gonna fall to second. This on the heels of all time losing season so hell yes it’s Cals fault. Cal came in pumping catching UcLa when in fact he’s gonna drop us to 2 in wins. Cmon people this is straight forward. Last season put 5 years of damage on our program it completely offset the natty.

Yet 8 months later we are back in discussion for a title contender.

 

[megablue]

I'd argue that we'd have lost it long ago had he not been here the last 12 years.

He's averaged 28 wins coming into this year. Tubby averaged 26.3 wins. Gillespie averaged 20 wins in his two seasons.

So people actually believe that we would have averaged MORE than 28 wins PER YEAR over the last 12 years with another coach or possibly 2 other coaches? Laughable. With the beginning of those 12 years being a total rebuild that we would have come NO WHERE close to being 102-14 over the first three years? Hilarious.

Last year was atrocious, but he more than made up for it by keeping us from 1 or 2 miserable years after Gillespie. We would have lost the all-time lead years ago had he not come here and brought instant success.

And as someone else mentioned, Kansas has played 200 more games.......so the whole argument is a straw man.

* Sorry to interrupt the middle school lunch room table discussion about how Wheeler is soft and back in the day some guy had 2 concussions, laughed them off, and then proceeded to go for a 72 yard rip to win the 6A High School championship...... and then marry the homecoming queen on the way out. #gibberish

Damn good post !!

 

[Dubya C Dubya]

I’m not going to cherry pick anything. Cals the coach and we re gonna fall to second. This on the heels of all time losing season so hell yes it’s Cals fault. Cal came in pumping catching UcLa when in fact he’s gonna drop us to 2 in wins. Cmon people this is straight forward. Last season put 5 years of damage on our program it completely offset the natty.

A historic season with no fans in the stands cancels out our national championship? You're the only UK fan that would wallow in that type of misery......If you are even a fan. Very debatable with the nonsense you constantly post.

 

[bkingUK]

Calipari has the 3rd highest winning percentage as coach behind Rupp and Pitino. So, technically, he’s third least responsible.

But truth be told, every coach has detracted from Rupp.

 

[ManitouDan]

Wins ? Losses ? Coach have anything to do with it ? Nah . Not a thing .. Its Covid .

 

[rick64]

 

[Wildcats1st]

Yet 8 months later we are back in discussion for a title contender.

Your discussion with yourself in the mirror. UK fans know when they have a team and this one is the epitome of inconsistent. Inconsistent teams go home early in March.

 

[Wildcats1st]

A historic season with no fans in the stands cancels out our national championship? You're the only UK fan that would wallow in that type of misery......If you are even a fan. Very debatable with the nonsense you constantly post.

This ^^^^ post is the epitome of metal instability.

Yeah without a doubt. We win a title every 10 years on average. We have a losing season (non probation) 1 time in 100 years. Of course it cancels out. This is your problem you love cal and don’t realize the damage done to our tradition in one season. 100 years buddy no losing season except when the ncaa buried us and when your hero won 9 games. Put that in your I love cal pipe and smoke it. You guys don’t love UK basketball you love cal and make every excuse for the guy. And your stupid no fans excuse. Reallly? Like We were the only school without fans? Trash. This stuff you guys keep pumping is toxic and is setting us back.

i bet 100 dollars you were pulling for Memphis when tubby was here.

 

[SemperFiCat]

Two things I know;
1) All-time winning percentage > all-time wins. Factually and statistically. Kansas has obviously played significantly more games than UK. All-time wins is simply a nice little anecdote, but less valuable in comparison of the two.
2) With the amount of talent Cal has had since arriving in Lexington, there is ZERO reason all-time wins shouldn't have grown, not shrank. None. Cal celebrates all the NBA talent he 'produces', yet the all-time wins lead has shrank, under his watch, with all that talent.

 

[BigRedMachineBigBlueNation]

Two things I know;
1) All-time winning percentage > all-time wins. Factually and statistically. Kansas has obviously played significantly more games than UK. All-time wins is simply a nice little anecdote, but less valuable in comparison of the two.
2) With the amount of talent Cal has had since arriving in Lexington, there is ZERO reason all-time wins shouldn't have grown, not shrank. None. Cal celebrates all the NBA talent he 'produces', yet the all-time wins lead has shrank, under his watch, with all that talent.

This

 

[TJWalkersBurner]

Two things I know;
1) All-time winning percentage > all-time wins. Factually and statistically. Kansas has obviously played significantly more games than UK. All-time wins is simply a nice little anecdote, but less valuable in comparison of the two.
2) With the amount of talent Cal has had since arriving in Lexington, there is ZERO reason all-time wins shouldn't have grown, not shrank. None. Cal celebrates all the NBA talent he 'produces', yet the all-time wins lead has shrank, under his watch, with all that talent.

Bill self and kanas haven’t exactly been slouches in the talent dept and they haven’t had to deal with the lack of experience Cals had either

 

[Dubya C Dubya]

This ^^^^ post is the epitome of metal instability.

Yeah without a doubt. We win a title every 10 years on average. We have a losing season (non probation) 1 time in 100 years. Of course it cancels out. This is your problem you love cal and don’t realize the damage done to our tradition in one season. 100 years buddy no losing season except when the ncaa buried us and when your hero won 9 games. Put that in your I love cal pipe and smoke it. You guys don’t love UK basketball you love cal and make every excuse for the guy. And your stupid no fans excuse. Reallly? Like We were the only school without fans? Trash. This stuff you guys keep pumping is toxic and is setting us back.

i bet 100 dollars you were pulling for Memphis when tubby was here.

I actually cheered for Tubby when he was here. I cheered for him so much that I was in San Antonio with GREAT seats for the Stanford and Utah games. I was there after the game when the SEC SEC chants went up....and then the chants turned into "We want Packer, We want Packer (Billy Packer). It sent goose bumps up my spine. You were probably at a dive bar in Louisville expressing your anger that UK did it again. Either that or you were wetting yourself while watching Pitino in Boston.

Go ahead and do a poll on who thinks last season cancels out the National Championship ( another one that I went to in NOLA). The only one we lost that I went to was the one in INDY when Miles Simon went nuts. Post that poll up, big shot. I want to see how many other phonies are here. You couldn't carry my UK fandom jock strap.........and you aren't fooling anybody here with all your fake rage designed to make UK fans miserable. It's an utter waste of your own time.

Don't take it personal if I don't read another word your utter. The definition of insanity would be reading your slop posts with any regularity.

 

[SemperFiCat]

Bill self and kanas haven’t exactly been slouches in the talent dept and they haven’t had to deal with the lack of experience Cals had either

True. But Kansas has also had their share of inexperience, and turmoil. So, It's kinda splitting hairs. And as far and Cal's team's inexperience, well, he's kinda lying in the bed he's created.

I don't mean to bash Cal. In fact I don't know who out there is a better coach for this job, but I will call a spade a spade when I see it, and Cal certainly isn't above blame.

 

[TJWalkersBurner]

True. But Kansas has also had their share of inexperience, and turmoil. SO, It's kinda splitting hairs. And as far and Cal's team's inexperience, well, he's kinda lying in the bed he's created.

I don't mean to bash Cal, in fact I don't know who out there is a better coach for this job, but I will call a spade a spade when I see it, and Cal certainly isn't above blame.

Self created his own system as well. I don’t have any problem putting blame on Cal for letting about 15 wins or so slip away over the last ten years. I just don’t agree with holding him to some higher standard beyond that based on the talent he’s had. Every coach picks the system they run.

 

[weatherbird]

This ^^^^ post is the epitome of metal instability.

Yeah without a doubt. We win a title every 10 years on average. We have a losing season (non probation) 1 time in 100 years. Of course it cancels out. This is your problem you love cal and don’t realize the damage done to our tradition in one season. 100 years buddy no losing season except when the ncaa buried us and when your hero won 9 games. Put that in your I love cal pipe and smoke it. You guys don’t love UK basketball you love cal and make every excuse for the guy. And your stupid no fans excuse. Reallly? Like We were the only school without fans? Trash. This stuff you guys keep pumping is toxic and is setting us back.

i bet 100 dollars you were pulling for Memphis when tubby was here.

So a once in 100 years season coincides with a once in 100 years pandemic. Sounds about right.

 

[SemperFiCat]

Self created his own system as well. I don’t have any problem putting blame on Cal for letting about 15 wins or so slip away over the last ten years. I just don’t agree with holding him to some higher standard beyond that based on the talent he’s had. Every coach picks the system they run.

For me, it would be a lot easier to swallow losing the all-time leads over some extra loses due to inexperience if there were a couple more banners hanging up. Then the end would justify the means. Just really difficult to explain Cal celebrating his wall of NBA players he's had here, and then look up at his lone banner in Rupp.

 

[TJWalkersBurner]

For me, it would be a lot easier to swallow losing the all-time leads over some extra loses due to inexperience if there were a couple more banners hanging up. Then the end would justify the means. Just really difficult to explain Cal celebrating his wall of NBA players he's had here, and then look up at his lone banner in Rupp.

This is getting a little side-tracked. My only point was that you should judge a coach by his record, good or bad, not by trying to hold him to a different standard due to the talent HES responsible for. He’s also added four banners, more than any coach not named Rupp.

 

[kl40504]

Funny it wasn't a straw man when UK over took unc, it was a big deal
Now that your favorite coach is about to puke it up, it's nothing

What is a big deal is how bad you have become as a poster on this board.

 

[The_Answer1313]

Two things I know;
1) All-time winning percentage > all-time wins. Factually and statistically. Kansas has obviously played significantly more games than UK. All-time wins is simply a nice little anecdote, but less valuable in comparison of the two.
2) With the amount of talent Cal has had since arriving in Lexington, there is ZERO reason all-time wins shouldn't have grown, not shrank. None. Cal celebrates all the NBA talent he 'produces', yet the all-time wins lead has shrank, under his watch, with all that talent.

I don't fully agree with 2.

It's not as if Kansas hasn't had a boatload of talent as well. And while we might have had more talent than they did eventually there's a limit to that when it comes to wins. It becomes eventually diminishing returns. For example in 2015 we could have fielded TWO top 25 teams. But only 5 players can play at a time. Kansas has had plenty enough talent to win their fair share of games. So I'm not sure we can just focus on UK and not factor in that KU had very talented teams as well.