Many people say that’s what caused WW2 and was one of the biggest mistakes of the 20th century. What different could have been done?
After WW1, what should have been done instead of Versailles treaty?
- Thread starter SosaUK1987
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Just spitballing but I would have allowed for the Hohenzollern monarchy to continue with the Crown Prince as Kaiser and Wilhelm II would have to stay in exile. Demand a constitutional Monarchy and I think I would have insisted the German signatories have been the Kaiser and Hindenburg as chief of the General Staff. They were let off scot free and the Weimar Republic was doomed from the start when it signed the treaty. It led to the whole "stab in the back " and the Germans to equate the Republic as a symbol of defeat.
As far as the financials, I don't know. The Germans, for all their crying about it, were far more punitive against the Russians in their peace with them and the US loans until the Depression hit had them on a pretty solid economic footing at the end of the '20s. Finally as far as admission of War guilt, there was more than enough blame to go around to the Germans, French, Serbs, Austrians and Russians so that was always ridiculous.
As far as the financials, I don't know. The Germans, for all their crying about it, were far more punitive against the Russians in their peace with them and the US loans until the Depression hit had them on a pretty solid economic footing at the end of the '20s. Finally as far as admission of War guilt, there was more than enough blame to go around to the Germans, French, Serbs, Austrians and Russians so that was always ridiculous.
The best alternative history would have unfolded this way:
In the spring of 1918, when the Germans launched their last big offensive using 750,000 veteran troops freed from the Eastern Front by Russia's collapse, initially they were successful.
The millions of fresh American troops that would eventually turn the tide were just starting to arrive. German forces actually were pressuring France as never before since 1914. The French and British armies were exhausted and very near collapse. The Germans seemed on the verge of winning. But inside Germany, things were already teetering. The economy was wrecked and the ability to maintain the war was evaporating. Virtually no additional manpower existed.
At that point, the leaders of Germany should have been wise enough to approach France and England from a position of relative strength and suggest a cease fire, with all sides withdrawing to pre-1914 borders. The French -- with persistent mutinies in their army, and the British who were most concerned about holding onto their empire while bogged down in an endless war, probably would have demanded some face-saving reparations, but nothing like the ruinous ones after the German army had been roundly defeated and was on the verge of collapse in November.
But, of course, true 'victory' still seemed in reach for Germany, so why agree to leave France? By the time victory was impossible after the spring offensive was turned back and American forces turned the tide decisively, it was too late.
By the time the war ended with Germany near collapse, different terms other than Versailles were unlikely. You don't fight - and win -- a war that brutal and destructive then just say, "never mind." The allies were going to do what they did -- there was zero public sentiment in London or Paris and little in Washington for less draconian terms.
In the spring of 1918, when the Germans launched their last big offensive using 750,000 veteran troops freed from the Eastern Front by Russia's collapse, initially they were successful.
The millions of fresh American troops that would eventually turn the tide were just starting to arrive. German forces actually were pressuring France as never before since 1914. The French and British armies were exhausted and very near collapse. The Germans seemed on the verge of winning. But inside Germany, things were already teetering. The economy was wrecked and the ability to maintain the war was evaporating. Virtually no additional manpower existed.
At that point, the leaders of Germany should have been wise enough to approach France and England from a position of relative strength and suggest a cease fire, with all sides withdrawing to pre-1914 borders. The French -- with persistent mutinies in their army, and the British who were most concerned about holding onto their empire while bogged down in an endless war, probably would have demanded some face-saving reparations, but nothing like the ruinous ones after the German army had been roundly defeated and was on the verge of collapse in November.
But, of course, true 'victory' still seemed in reach for Germany, so why agree to leave France? By the time victory was impossible after the spring offensive was turned back and American forces turned the tide decisively, it was too late.
By the time the war ended with Germany near collapse, different terms other than Versailles were unlikely. You don't fight - and win -- a war that brutal and destructive then just say, "never mind." The allies were going to do what they did -- there was zero public sentiment in London or Paris and little in Washington for less draconian terms.
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Made economic penalties not so harsh.
Establish a military rule until a constitution and democratic process was set up (easier typed than done)
But most importantly, do exactly what was done after WW2.... establish military bases in Germany so they would have not re militarized.
Establish a military rule until a constitution and democratic process was set up (easier typed than done)
But most importantly, do exactly what was done after WW2.... establish military bases in Germany so they would have not re militarized.
The biggest voice against the Versailles Treaty was John Maynard Keynes, and he was speaking up as the treaty was being negotiated. At the time, debt was seen as a weapon that only hurt the debtor and debt was being used to punish Germany. Keynes correctly saw that all of Europe would suffer from Germany being forced into the role of vassal.
One of the unacknowledged factors in the treaty was the exhaustion of the Allies. Nobody had any reserves either of men or will. The idiotic war had destroyed -- not wounded -- 19th century Europe. Morally, physically, and philosophically. The treaty was the equivalent of one statue shaming another,
What there wasn't a shortage of was haters. Lincoln had pointed the way after our Civil War with the greatest political phrase ever. "With malice toward none and charity for all." It fell on deaf ears here and wasn't even dreamed of at Versailles. So, haters in Germany had the perfect medium in which to flourish, and there were no reserves among the Allies to counter them.
One of the unacknowledged factors in the treaty was the exhaustion of the Allies. Nobody had any reserves either of men or will. The idiotic war had destroyed -- not wounded -- 19th century Europe. Morally, physically, and philosophically. The treaty was the equivalent of one statue shaming another,
What there wasn't a shortage of was haters. Lincoln had pointed the way after our Civil War with the greatest political phrase ever. "With malice toward none and charity for all." It fell on deaf ears here and wasn't even dreamed of at Versailles. So, haters in Germany had the perfect medium in which to flourish, and there were no reserves among the Allies to counter them.
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The Battle of Midway was a boring disappointment for sure.
LOVE talking history
LOVE the emphasis placed on the end of WW1 disastrous decision making that led to MUCH more suffering
As I recall France was the leading protagonist that wanted to heap the entire blame and war Debt upon Germany - which they did (Germany paid off their WW1 debts around 2014 IIRC)
But it seemed that little to no effort was made to address the root causes that included :
1) Nationalistic self determination - when is it oK and when it is not?
There were 2 balkan wars ~ 1910-1011 that preceded WW1 and helped stoke the fires
2) Addressing the nature of the world monarchy / specific leaders and families that were playing their "Great Game" and colonizing haphazardly and violently defending their approach to maintaining those resources
^^ I realize those are broad and there's no recommendation on what could actually be DONE
The second item really was something for **US** to address to the ppl who cause such wars
Also - there just needed to be more common sense in some areas
Britan using Greek troops to police the surrendered Ottoman / Turkish areas was almost comically funny
Japan had already taken Manchuria by this point and aligned with the Brits in WW1 -
Seems like it would have been possible to open up diplomatic ties and trade with them and Europe better
Sharing technology more openly via specific resource sharing / tech-exchange summit meetings may have helped
Specifically thinking of how the importance of OIL, where its' located, how to extract it AND the emergent machinery that depended on it ----- all tied together
Just some thoughts - cool post
LOVE the emphasis placed on the end of WW1 disastrous decision making that led to MUCH more suffering
As I recall France was the leading protagonist that wanted to heap the entire blame and war Debt upon Germany - which they did (Germany paid off their WW1 debts around 2014 IIRC)
But it seemed that little to no effort was made to address the root causes that included :
1) Nationalistic self determination - when is it oK and when it is not?
There were 2 balkan wars ~ 1910-1011 that preceded WW1 and helped stoke the fires
2) Addressing the nature of the world monarchy / specific leaders and families that were playing their "Great Game" and colonizing haphazardly and violently defending their approach to maintaining those resources
^^ I realize those are broad and there's no recommendation on what could actually be DONE
The second item really was something for **US** to address to the ppl who cause such wars
Also - there just needed to be more common sense in some areas
Britan using Greek troops to police the surrendered Ottoman / Turkish areas was almost comically funny
Japan had already taken Manchuria by this point and aligned with the Brits in WW1 -
Seems like it would have been possible to open up diplomatic ties and trade with them and Europe better
Sharing technology more openly via specific resource sharing / tech-exchange summit meetings may have helped
Specifically thinking of how the importance of OIL, where its' located, how to extract it AND the emergent machinery that depended on it ----- all tied together
Just some thoughts - cool post
Controversial take, but I don’t know how much it would have made a difference. Had there been a better deal would Hitler been satisfied, or would he have had other things to be pissed about? He was pretty furious at the Jews and commies for “backstabbing” the “real Germans” in WWI.
Would Hitler ever have risen up to power of Germany wasn’t such a wreck at the end of the war and into the mid 20s due to the reparations, loss of land, all the blame out at their feet?
Hitler was an extreme long-shot to rise to power even in a Germany in economic ruin and feeling the bitterness of the Versailles "reprisals" as people struggled to keep from starving. Besides an incredible run of luck, the conditions had to be almost exactly what they were for some obscure ex-corporal with zero political experience or connections to rise as he did. In a Germany that was even somewhat more stable -- which people assume would have been the case even with a worldwide depression were it not for the conditions imposed by Versailles -- no one outside his immediate circle would have ever heard the name Adolf Hitler.
We’ll..maybe some of us had good stuff
(myself excluded of course).
Man, I could talk history all day long. As long as it adds to the conversation, it’s all welcome.We’ll..maybe some of us had good stuff
It’s not hitler to worry about - he was a psychopath no matter what - it’s how badly the Germans felt victimized that caused them to rally around him.
It's become such a common thing to make fun of the French as cowards because of their quick surrender in WWII but when you stop and do the math on French losses in World War I and realize the catastrophic damage done. The population of France at the beginning of the war was almost 39 million. Rough figures, you cut that in half as 50% men and 50% women so now you're about 19 million men. Then eliminate those that are 0-18 and those that are over 45(either too young or too old for military service) so now you've got 8.5-9.5 million men who are military age, then subtract the 4.3 million dead, wounded, or missing the French had and so the odds were literally 1 in 2 that you would get through unscathed. Truly a lost generation. It puts their World War II performance in a different light and why they didn't have the stomach for it but they didn't have the reserve to fall back on.
Bunch just think how much French ass you would have gotten had you survived.
The Franco-Prussian war of 1870 has to be figured in to this. The question of German unification had always threatened the French. Once unification happened, Germany was at war with France twice in under 50 years, so those fears were justified to the French in 1919. I’m not sure if anybody could have gotten the French to go easier at Versailles.
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The French had 27,000 men killed in one day of battle in 1914. Roughly half of the total U.S. fatalities in all our years in Vietnam. And after that they continued fighting for 5 more f'n years in some of the most apocalyptic, soul-draining warfare ever imaginable. That will always hold my respect alone. Not to mention, we most likely don't win our independence without them. Anyone that tries and throw shade at France is just some "freedom fry" eating dum-dum.
Yep. People tend to forget the French’s help was massive in the revolutionary war. We don’t win without it. No way.
Yeah, when I did a deep dive on French history in WWI it made me sick we ever called the French weak..
What’s some good docs on WW1? I’ve studied WW2 but not much on WW1.
The best one for beginners is Blueprint for Armageddon by Dan Carlin
This used to be free on Apple Podcast's but now you have to buy it for $15. The good news is that it lasts 26 hours so you get your money's worth.
It's fantastic for understanding what was going on; my only issue is that it over indexes on the human cost (that sounds harsh, but he really focuses on how it was a meat grinder over and over) and doesn't go into strategy as much.
That said, I probably listened to this thing like 3 times. It's great.
I’ll second the Dan Carlin rec.
If you’re a reader John Keegan’s book on WW1 is a good pick.
If you’re a reader John Keegan’s book on WW1 is a good pick.
I have read a ton of books about the First World War, think Martin Gilbert's "The First World War" is the best, most comprehensive history, IMO.
Agree 100% on the takes above re the French, they have probably fought more wars than any other country, and have learned some really hard lessons along the way, good idea to have them on your side, in most cases.
As for OP, probably a plan like after WWII, with some military bases and occupation would have been much better than punitive sanctions which the Germans were never going to be able to pay. But as another poster said, after 13,000,000 dead, was zero sentiment for any sort of mercy. And once the world wide depression hit, there was no money anywhere to fund any sort of rebuild for any country.
Agree 100% on the takes above re the French, they have probably fought more wars than any other country, and have learned some really hard lessons along the way, good idea to have them on your side, in most cases.
As for OP, probably a plan like after WWII, with some military bases and occupation would have been much better than punitive sanctions which the Germans were never going to be able to pay. But as another poster said, after 13,000,000 dead, was zero sentiment for any sort of mercy. And once the world wide depression hit, there was no money anywhere to fund any sort of rebuild for any country.
Is this the “smartest” (non-GYERO) thread on The Paddock in its history? I dig it.
Good idea to have the French on your side? They surrender at the sight of a brush fire.
From what I understand though, the treaty after WWI was like a wet band-aid on a massive wound. It was inevitable for conflict to be restarted. That area is just prone to conflict. You see that now with the Soviets and the tense situation they are causing. We are just one move of stupidity from doing this crap all over again.
I just don’t see it. Half the reason WW2 was even able to get going was the French had no clue where the German tanks were coming from. Radar was invented during the war and that’s what effectively stopped the U-Boats. Nowadays we know if a rocket is launched and where it’s going 5,000 miles away within 2 seconds. I just don’t see how we can have a large scale war when a surprise attack is virtually impossible. Everything is so intertwined now with different countries as well.
Versailles created the very conditions that spawn an Adolph Hitler.
Exactly why Hitler made France sign surrender terms in the exact same rail carriage where Germany had been made to surrender in 1918. They removed it from a museum and then took it back to Germany as a trophy. Three days alter the Germans destroyed the site. It was an act of revenge for Germany's humiliation and the heavy-handed treatment by France in the years following WW1.
Events like the execution of Albert Leo Schlageter fanned the flames of German nationalism. The best German fighter wing (JG/26) in the west carried the gothic "S" of Schlageter on their engine cowlings in his honor.
Yeah - it was personal.
It was the French who defended Dunkirk and allowed the British to escape to England.
I looked it up for fun, looks like France has in fact fought more wars than any other country, including the 100 Years War, which lasted, well, about a century, and the Napoleonic Wars which lasted from the late 1700s until 1815. From what I read, one could say that either they don't play well with their neighbors, or they live in a dangerous neighborhood, depending on your perspective.
Back to OP, WWI is a fascinating era, one result is that it projected America into the world leadership role it retains today. Another result was the creation of the modern middle east, for better or worse.
Back to OP, WWI is a fascinating era, one result is that it projected America into the world leadership role it retains today. Another result was the creation of the modern middle east, for better or worse.
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Good stuff. Thanks for looking that up. LMAO and the dangerous neighborhood bit. Lol
The Guns of August is the best first 3-4 chapters of any book ive ever read. Unfortunately, there are several more chapters that are a slog, just like the war.
One problem is that the German people historically, don't respond to kindness (they see it as weakness): they respond to strength and power. Showing them kindness or mercy at Versailles would have done the French no good.
if you read Eisenhower's comments to the troops as the started crossing the Rhine in March '45, he stated basically "As you enter Germany, do not offer your hand to the Germans; give them the back of your hand instead. They don't respond to kindness; treat them as a conquered people, We are not here to save them; we are here as conquerors". Some harsh words right there...
You can find it in the book "Against All Odds' by Alex Kershaw: its a great read about the exploits of 4 Americans (Audie Murphy is one of them) who fought in North Africa; Sicily, Italy; and France, then making their way into Germany.
if you read Eisenhower's comments to the troops as the started crossing the Rhine in March '45, he stated basically "As you enter Germany, do not offer your hand to the Germans; give them the back of your hand instead. They don't respond to kindness; treat them as a conquered people, We are not here to save them; we are here as conquerors". Some harsh words right there...
You can find it in the book "Against All Odds' by Alex Kershaw: its a great read about the exploits of 4 Americans (Audie Murphy is one of them) who fought in North Africa; Sicily, Italy; and France, then making their way into Germany.
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