About Stoops handcuffing the offense
- Thread starter tdcat
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^ BW will get some solid offers and they are well deserved. I don’t want to lose him, but I want to see a man get what he wants and works hard for. (I have no clue what White’s career ambitions are.) I’m guessing it would take the right offer to lure him away.
Stoops also said after the Tennessee game that we were a ground and pound, clock control offense. That totally contradicts what he said about going too slow. Which version is Stoops’ true philosophy, I guess it’s hard to say. Stoops has been running a slower offense pretty much every year but the year we had Coen, which is why I’m happy with the hiring. However, let’s not rewrite Stoops’ tenure to say the criticisms of the offensive philosophy were only warranted this year under Scang.
I think Stoops has hamstrung his OCs quite a bit. That seems obvious to me. For whatever reason, he seemed to give Coen most of the control and trust. I’m hoping he goes back to that and gives Coen full control of the offense.
I didn’t see the interview or whatever, but ground and pound was absolutely our best chance to beat tenn. This is just football. It’s a human chess match. Do you honestly think we could have outgunned tenn? If you can’t adjust your approach each game then you’re not winning anything that matters
I think Eddie Gran was here before too. I know he isn't OC anymore, but he clearly liked something here and that is what I'm trying to point out.
Stoops has promised me to stay hands off of the offense this time which is why I agreed to return
It’s my show now baby
LC
It’s my show now baby
LC
If you are a head coach, there are going to be times when you will restrain your offense. If your defense has been on field a great deal and sometimes you will need to look at your O C and tell him to run ball to give defense a rest. Say they just come off a 7 minute drive by their offense ? You go out when you get ball and fail get first down and you threw ball 3 times. Took 35 seconds and now your punting and sending defense back out. Obviously this isn’t what you want but sometimes necessary.
Understand what you're saying and generally agree with one exception: resting the defense is about getting first downs. If you can do that via the run, great. Other 3 and outs just put your defense back on the field.
However it's clear stoops shares the same belief as to running the ball. That's why we're so predictable at times. With the ol of last year, we couldn't be so predictable in the run game; yet that's what we did until the final two games.
I think when you’re playing an offense has good as Tennessee’s you have to go into that game planning to score 28+ if you’re going to win. Especially with a secondary as bad as Tennessee’s. We were never going to beat Tennessee 24-21.
We probably didn’t have what it took to beat them regardless of scheme anyways though. I’m not upset with Stoops for that game solely. His comments in the press conference said that we were a ground and pound, clock control team in general. Not just for that game. He said something like “that’s who we are” which indicates that’s how he saw our offense outside of just that 1 game.
I agree. A 3 and out with 3 runs is just as long as a 3 and out with 3 passes in real time. It may 2 minutes off the clock versus 30 seconds but the defense is still going to be gassed and not rested.
Obviously it’s about the game clock. It’s two fold. By running the ball your not only resting your defense but your also limiting their offense in processions . I agree passing the ball is great way to put pressure and spread their defense especially with the receivers we have now. It was infuriating against Ole Miss their safeties where playing right behind LBs. Scangello didn’t roll Levi’s out or anything to give Will enough time to throw to our guys. Most of his throws that game was behind line. Kiffen was betting the house on his guys getting to Will before we could get downfield. No adjustments where made. When they are man to man and rushing 8 there is no pocket.
I’m not sure why there’s really any debate. There is a certain way stoops wants the game to be played. We all know that. He has said as such. We can debate it’s effectiveness, whether it makes sense in a current environment if offensive football, and all other related matters. But everybody knows the way he wants the game played.
I'm hoping that Liam's willingness to come back means Stoops left him alone.
We got embarrassed in that game, so yes I think any other approach would have been better. They had one of the worst pass defenses in the country and a weak secondary. We chose to play to their strength, run defense!
The narrative about Stoops handcuffing the offense is an ignorant myth that started when Stoops and Shannon Dawson couldn't get on the same philosophical page in 2015. Back when UK had no defensive depth, Stoops knew he had to be mindful of the stamina of his smaller number of defensive linemen at the time. The myth has been perpetuated mainly by click happy KSR and by the permanent anti-Stoops negative nancies.
Liam Coen designs and calls his own plays. So did Gran and Scangarello. If, once in a while, the head coach makes a key play call, what is different about that compared to when Saban and Smart do the same? That's their job. Some people will always throw Stoops under the bus regardless of what he acomplishes because our football coaches (including Brooks) have always been subjected to this Monday morning QB, hindsight is 20-20 treatment. KSR is thriving for primarily that reason. Seldom has a business been so successful by being so wrong, although I will exclude Maggard from that observation.
First, I don't think Stoops meddles in the play calling, never did. You cannot deny that Stoops is an old school, conservative, defensive-minded, ball control-oriented, keep the defense off of the field as much as possible style of coach. All of those things are going to affect the kinds of numbers you see out of the offense and how it is perceived.
Coen may design and call the plays, but I will guarantee you UK will not be running a no huddle offense and getting off plays with 15-20 seconds still on the play clock, that's not what Stoops wants. He doesn't want to have a track meet type of offense, he wants to give his defense as much rest as possible. That means methodically working your way down field and taking as much time off of the clock as possible along the way.
Scangarello was not wrong in saying that, when you play this way, your margin for error is smaller. You have fewer possessions and there is more pressure to get something positive done with those fewer possessions. All you can hope for is that Coen is better at it than Rich was. So, you may think that people are ignorant for saying Stoops is handcuffing the offense, that may not be his intention, but with his philosophy as a coach, that's the end result. There's no way Stoops would hire a Huepel-esque OC and then just turn him loose to do whatever he wants to or is capable of doing, it's just not in his DNA.
So that leaves one of 2 options, either Stoops really wants a high-powered, fast-paced offense and is just terrible at bringing it fruition or he's a conservative coach whose philosophy and style of play actually do affect what the offense ultimately is and looks like.
Or, Stoops wants a "flexible and balanced offense that changes on personnel....." He's been saying this over and over and over and over through the last decade.
-If you have stud Snell at RB, a fair OL, very poor WR/TE, and a QB's in Johnson/Wilson who were so-so throwing but fairly mobile.......you're gonna see a lot of rushing the ball.
-If you don't really have a QB, very poor WR/TE options outside of Lynn Bowden, fair RB's in Smoke/CRod, and a fair OL....you'll see a lot of Bowden/Wildcat and rushing the ball.
-If you have a QB in Levis that is fairly mobile and decent at passing......and you have a guy like Wandale at WR but not a lot of super stellar other options at WR/TE.....a good OL....and a stud RB like CRod......you'll see decent passing (to Wandale) and a lot of rushing.
-My prediction:
-QB - Leary is likely the best "proven" pure passer that any roster has had under Stoops. He's not going to be a huge factor in the run game, but he has shown he is accurate and makes good decisions if the conditions are right.
-RB - Davis is a proven 1,000 SEC rusher, but he's not a bell-cow pounder like Snell/CRod. However, the tandem of Davis/McClain is likely the best pass catching duo that we've seen in a while.
-OL - Ugh, we'll see.
-WR/TE - This is likely the best collective group of receiving options that UK has had under Stoops. Key, Brown, Robinson, Dingle.....they're young and likely not ready to go berserk and completely take over games....but they're talented and proven enough to not be liabilities.
So, the personnel is indicating more of a balanced attack.
I don't really think we're in too much disagreement here. My point was simply that Stoops does affect what the offense looks like. Are there other factors involved? Sure. But 11 years of mostly terrible offenses and a few decent ones (the one Coen year maybe being the best), says Stoops has his fingerprints on it.
Silly myth, simple fact a bright young offensive mind like Coen came to work for him - TWICE! - should kill this for good
Actually both can be true. Stoops could have been handcuffing previous OCs and realized he can't do it going forward if he wants to compete in the SEC and have good recruiting classes. Liam proved himself the first go around and now Stoops has confidence in him to let him have if not full control then virtually full control with minimal interference from Stoops himself. I personally believe that is indeed the current state of the program on the offensive side of the ball.
I truly believe Stoops figured out a few years ago you have to score points at
a good rate to win todays game. it may have took him a while get and keep his
hands off. most of us can't change overnight.
So is Nick Saban.
In 2013-15, it was true at the time that Stoops was trying to get his defense as much rest as possible. Back then, he had good reasons to do that because he had no defensive depth. The backbone of the improvement of UK football under Stoops has been roster construction, which is a gradual, methodical, year by year process. Stoops has built up his roster slowly but successfully, notwithstanding misconceptions of some people consumed by a false understanding of online class rankings and egged on by misinformation sources like Nick Roush. Hell, even career anti-UK columnist John Clay now acknowledges that Stoops is getting it done. Currently, Stoops' DL goes three-deep with quality players.
During the last two seasons, UK's offense has gone uptempo at times. When Scangarello was fired, Stoops explained that Scangarello's offense was too slow. That is an inconvenient fact, but those who subscribe to your narrative of Stoops conveniently overlook it.
I stand by what I said. Stoops is a driven, competitive man who badly wants to win. Of course his background is old school. He is the youngest son from a Youngstown, OH, family of football coaches. So it is natural for him to be old school. But Stoops has shown an ability to adapt and innovate. He hires coordinators like Brad White and Liam Coen with NFL backgrounds, and he lets them do their jobs. That's one reason why they are respected enough in the football business for other high level entities to seek to hire them away from UK. The crowd that still believes Stoops handcuffs his offense willfully overlooks these inconvenient facts. But if Stoops was not constantly adapting, UK football would not be a top half of the SEC program during his tenure. It has been a bumpy ride for sure, but that is the nature of competition in the SEC, the nation's best college football conference.
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You would think so. But there’s a crowd that will never believe it.
I think this year will be very telling! We have a very good pocket passer, great receivers, and hopefully an improved OL.
We have a tough schedule: UT, USC, and Mizzou will be much improved. We will have to put up points to have a chance to win those games.
Like Herm Edwards, Stoops plays to win the game. If he has a lead in the 4th QTR he is not going pass happy just to run up the score. He wants to get into the locker room with a win. That's not handcuffing the offense, that's smart football.
I think he thought Scan was going to be another Coen. They were supposed to be a similar style and we were supposed to expect some level of continuity. What a mistake that turned out to be. I don’t think Stoops cuffed Scan, I think the OL and Scans playcalling cuffed us.
Ffs
Can we please not allow drunk posts to revive old, needlessly negative threads on here? We need to stop dwelling in and on the past. The fellowship of the miserable will always be with us and willing to drag us back into the crap we all lived through once as an excuse for why they still wallow in self-pity and bitterness.
Don't help them to stay there by commenting on their agenda driven crap
Can we please not allow drunk posts to revive old, needlessly negative threads on here? We need to stop dwelling in and on the past. The fellowship of the miserable will always be with us and willing to drag us back into the crap we all lived through once as an excuse for why they still wallow in self-pity and bitterness.
Don't help them to stay there by commenting on their agenda driven crap
Coen is a young football genius. Stoops knows that. Stoops definitely is not the bumbling bonehead some would have you believe.
These are the words of Paul Finebaum in 2022: "I think he's one of the elite coaches now in the SEC."
The late Mike Leach said about Stoops: "I think he does a really good job. I think he's really a sharp guy."
In the words of Kirby Smart: "When you look at what Coach Stoops has been able to do, it's pretty remarkable. First off, he's a really good football coach. I've known him a long time, recruited against him. He is a tremendous coach, a tremendous builder of men, to see what he's done in the consistency in which they perform at such a high level. I say it all the time, but to be a good football coach you've got to have all the phases. The recruiting phase, the organizational phase, the development phase, the three phases - offense, defense, special teams - and they are really incredible at all three."
These people know their football. I might quibble with Smart's comment about our special teams, but his respect for Stoops is earned. We played Georgia a lot tougher than TCU and Tennessee played them.
These are the words of Paul Finebaum in 2022: "I think he's one of the elite coaches now in the SEC."
The late Mike Leach said about Stoops: "I think he does a really good job. I think he's really a sharp guy."
In the words of Kirby Smart: "When you look at what Coach Stoops has been able to do, it's pretty remarkable. First off, he's a really good football coach. I've known him a long time, recruited against him. He is a tremendous coach, a tremendous builder of men, to see what he's done in the consistency in which they perform at such a high level. I say it all the time, but to be a good football coach you've got to have all the phases. The recruiting phase, the organizational phase, the development phase, the three phases - offense, defense, special teams - and they are really incredible at all three."
These people know their football. I might quibble with Smart's comment about our special teams, but his respect for Stoops is earned. We played Georgia a lot tougher than TCU and Tennessee played them.
Thinking that the majority of people on this board really believe that Stoops controls the OC to the point of slowing the offense is showing that you dont understand this board. This board is full of parrots,when a couple of people have an idea, everyone wants to agree to fit in. It happens over and over and makes us all look like fools. The biggest thing is the idea that for some reason UK is hated and gets no calls because of it . WHY would that be true? Why? However, its constant talk/agreement that that is the case. This is simply the same thing,a few people gave that idea about Stoops and the offense so to fit in here others just repeat it.
At this point, I don’t see White leaving for a head Coaching spot at the G5 level. I think it would take the right P5 head Coaching position to lure him away, short of (maybe) DC at a Bama, Georgia type program.
This is an interesting observation. No doubt it happens. To type in a password and access a site takes a minimal amount of effort. People are not on here by accident or default. I would say most are here by way of inquiry or habit, looking for news or engaging in the modern day form of socializing. Most posts do not contain any useful information, but a lot of posts are engaged in rational conversations about sports. How many are offered for the purpose of fitting in? That number may be significant but not the main theme of the site.
You conveniently pulled lines out of my post to try to "illustrate" your point while ignoring others. So I'll simplify things. 11 years of mostly bad offense save one or two decent seasons is more proof than what you think or say Stoops is "trying" to do. I'm going on what he has shown, not on what you think he is trying to show. When the offense picks up the pace and UK starts scoring 35+ points\gm I may change my tune. Until then, we'll just hope he's actually "trying" to do what you say he is. By the way, your response would lean more toward the "Stoops is just terrible at brining it to fruition" option. I'm tired of talking about what he "wants" to do, I want to see it on the field at some point with some degree of consistency. A great coach shouldn't need 11+ years to finally realize he needs an offense to go along with his defense and they should be able to implement a plan to get there. If that's what he's doing now, we'll see I guess. But until the offense starts doing it on the field consistently, it's all just talk.
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Not a Stoops critic but from what I have observed Coen was the first OC Stoops has brought in that was given just about a total free reign on the offense and play calling. It does seem like Stoops interceded and slowed things down with other OCs including Eddie Gran at times, and may have even provided the OC the general outline of what offense to run. I could be wrong but it just seems that way.
However I think at the end of the 2019 season Stoops had come to realize that his idea of an offense was not going to get the job done in modern day SEC football so he want out and found a next generation OC in Coen. Absolutely Coen would not have returned or likely even came here in the first place without assurance of near if not total autonomy. He's an up and coming OC that is starting to get a lot of looks from other programs, he wants to build his image here and I think Stoops is supporting that.
Care to expound on how Stoops interceded and slowed down Gran's offense, as opposed to inserting an occasional executive decision like all head coaches do? When Gran was the OC, we ran the football lots because our best players were running backs and offensive linemen. Adapting to use your best players is smart football. When you run the ball a lot, of course you will run clock and shorten games because that is the natural consequence of a run heavy offense.
I don't know Gran ran a pass oriented offense at Cincy and then came here and run a run oriented group, just spit balling here but thinking maybe Stoops might have had some influence on that. Anyway as I said above I could be wrong.
