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About Stoops handcuffing the offense

tdcat

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Been reading over and over on this board about how Stoops handcuffs his offensive coordinators and smothers the offense. How we will never have an effective offense at UK so long as Stoops is here.

Trying to reconcile these
"facts" with Coen coming back.

Coen has been here. He knows working under Stoops. Are we to believe Coen is willfully putting handcuffs on to stifle his growth and career advancement?

For once I would really like to hear from these Stoops critics. With Stoops exerting overbearing control of the offense, why did Coen come back?
 
That is why I have been excited about Coen coming back. If he was handcuffed by Stoops he could still make it work.

He can still get good results out of this offense. It might be slow starting next year but it should be in good position mid season, given good transfer portal pickups
 
I have always thought Stoops basically had the final say on all play call/strategy during the game with the OC's We kept bringing in high-powered guys. Eddie Gran's offense at UC consistently was over 300 yards a game passing but at UK he was a ground-and-pound guy. Dawson and even Neil Brown were more conservative. But when Coen arrived, that seemed to change. I saw less of Stoops and the OC next to each other during the game. Less discussion. I think Stoops had an epiphany with Coen and handed the keys over to him early. I think he tried to do that with Scangrello but it didn't work and Stoops started to stick his nose back in it late in the season.
Philosophy-wise, we're going to continue to be a running team, Coen or not. But one thing I saw with Coen that didn't exist with previous OC's and last season, was balance.
 
I think both can be true. I firmly believe that Stoops has handcuffed the offense in the past under Brown, Gran, and Shannon. I think he even did so under Liam and Rich. Gran made it work and there was no need to make changes with Benny and then Lynn at QB. However, Liam was able to prove that his offense works overtime so Stoops loosened the reigns some and let Liam do his thing. I honestly think Liam will have full control over the offense this time around.
 
Coen would not come back if it was not a great experience the first go around. I think he and Brad White (hope Purdue is not thinking White for HC) work well together. I also think he respects Stoops and if Stoops was in anyway bad for him, he would stay away.
 
Philosophy can handcuff an offense if the OC feels obligated to do certain things or be replaced.
 
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Listening to Stoops over the years he is a 'lean' running coach. But, he does want an assemblance of balance. His latest comments was he does not want using most of the play clock to get a play off. Said it slows things down 'too much.' In political terms think of it as far right or far left, one running most of the time and the other passing most of the time. So Stoops would be in moderate territory with a slight lean one way. The way I see it, correct me if I am looking at it wrong.
 
Been reading over and over on this board about how Stoops handcuffs his offensive coordinators and smothers the offense. How we will never have an effective offense at UK so long as Stoops is here.

Trying to reconcile these
"facts" with Coen coming back.

Coen has been here. He knows working under Stoops. Are we to believe Coen is willfully putting handcuffs on to stifle his growth and career advancement?

For once I would really like to hear from these Stoops critics. With Stoops exerting overbearing control of the offense, why did Coen come back?
Back when Shannon Dawson was here, Stoops wanted the clock to run so his thin (at that time) defense would not get anymore gassed than necessary. Back then, he mainly had Joker's players and there was very little quality depth, so "shortening" the game made some good sense. Soon, Stoops developed winning streaks over SCar and MO even though those teams had more talent than we had.

Now, Stoops has built a deep, talented defensive roster. This season, UK had the 3rd best defense in the SEC, behind only GA and AL statistically.

When Stoops fired Scangarello, he said at the press conference that one reason was because Scangarello was running the offense TOO SLOW. He said Scangarello was taking 37 seconds between snaps, and that he wants to go faster. This is direct evidence that fans criticizing Stoops for slowing down the current offense are not only wrong, and not only stuck 8 years in the past, but they also don't understand what is different now with our team. In fact, UK used some uptempo in 2021 and at times in 2022. Inconvenient facts for people that search for criticisms against Stoops whether factual or not.

TN, MS St, and OM have been using uptempo in order to attack talented defenses. They did it to us, so Stoops knows this full well. Stoops is 54-34 including 4-2 in bowl games at UK since the 2016 season, and is putting players in the NFL. There is a reason for this. He understands how to adapt and develop.
 
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Any offense should be Taylor made/adapted to the talent. Not what some guy on the sidelines philosophy is. Rod Hudson had a multi use QB scheme and essentially had 10 on 11 when he put Lorenzen @ WR. He put a square peg in a round hole and it was so freaking predictable and terrible that he’s 1 of the few humans on the planet that made Joker Phillips look good. I’m not sure the primary reason I hated his very short tenure here , but rest assured making me like Joker is in the top 2.

Quite honestly I thought he ( Joker) had a solid scheme that utilized our talent properly most times. Going option in the red zone when we hadn’t all season was a big reason we dropped Auburn on their field& Georgia as well.

Eddie Gran was not the problem & that’s why he fell on his sword like assistant coaches always do. That’s the reason he was hired back. EG could have been a better choice than Scagnattie but perception is reality in that world. And the reason he put up numbers everywhere else he coached is proof. Also when you have a CRod or Benny jr. you gotta give them the pigskin.

Coen Will right the ship, but we now have to address the lack of talent at some important positions. Stoops is smart enough to at least try to course correct, but needs to be able to trust his OC in order for that to happen.
 
Does anyone believe Coen is coming back without an agreement in place to turn the offensive play calling over 100%? Coen has ALL of the leverage in this situation. Stoops knows he just completely underperformed in the season with his best personnel ever.

Blew the season, won 7 games and got a nearly 2 million dollar raise. Let that all sink in.
 
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"He (Stoops) said Scangarello was taking 37 seconds between snaps, and that he wants to go faster. This is direct evidence that fans criticizing Stoops for slowing down the current offense are not only wrong, and not only stuck 8 years in the past, but they also don't understand what is different now with our team."

You think Gran slowed the pace down, over the objections of the Head Coach? All season? Like Stoops could not at any point say "Speed it up. We need points!"

That is rich. I hope he did not really say that. EVERYONE knows Stoops Coach's Offense and Defense from a Defensive posture. (he does not care about special teams, at all.)
 
Been reading over and over on this board about how Stoops handcuffs his offensive coordinators and smothers the offense. How we will never have an effective offense at UK so long as Stoops is here.

Trying to reconcile these
"facts" with Coen coming back.

Coen has been here. He knows working under Stoops. Are we to believe Coen is willfully putting handcuffs on to stifle his growth and career advancement?

For once I would really like to hear from these Stoops critics. With Stoops exerting overbearing control of the offense, why did Coen come back?
I'm hoping this means that Stoops is going to truly change his philosophy on offense and put it on an equal plane with his defense. Also, that Stoops has made these promises to Coen. Now, hopefully a qb will be developed and LET’S GO CATS!
 
"He (Stoops) said Scangarello was taking 37 seconds between snaps, and that he wants to go faster. This is direct evidence that fans criticizing Stoops for slowing down the current offense are not only wrong, and not only stuck 8 years in the past, but they also don't understand what is different now with our team."

You think Gran slowed the pace down, over the objections of the Head Coach? All season? Like Stoops could not at any point say "Speed it up. We need points!"

That is rich. I hope he did not really say that. EVERYONE knows Stoops Coach's Offense and Defense from a Defensive posture. (he does not care about special teams, at all.)
Liked this,but don't believe the last sentence even though ST probably cost two games this year. We'll see.
 
Coen knows what Stoops wants and Stoops doesn’t have to find another coordinator to mold to what he wants the offense to look like. He tried hiring coaches from the air raid system(Dawson and Brown) and neither lasted but one season, it’s just not Stoop’s style
 
Does anyone believe Coen is coming back without an agreement in place to turn the offensive play calling over 100%? Coen has ALL of the leverage in this situation. Stoops knows he just completely underperformed in the season with his best personnel ever.

Blew the season, won 7 games and got a nearly 2 million dollar raise. Let that all sink in.
There isn't a head coach alive that gives the OC 100% play calling authority. That is absurd.
 
The narrative Stoops is handcuffing the offense....Coen all but dispels that notion.

1. Coen's offense scored 32 pts a game and was very good passing and running. If Stoops was such a ball control freak...it'd be hard for a first time OC in Coen to get away with what he did.
2. Coen coming back is basically a nail in that coffin of Stoops controls things. Do you really think Coen would leave Rams to come back if Stoops was such a meddler?
3. Neal Brown is an often-overlooked OC that was fine in his 2nd year and then left for head coach at Troy. There was never any evidence Stoops was handcuffing him in year 2. Towles had a good first year at QB, Juice Johnson got on the scene, CJ Conrad got some good run that year, Javess Blue was a nice piece at WR, Boom Williams/JoJo Kemp were good run tandem. But somehow that narrative got stuck on Stoops he was not good for Neal Brown to work with. Pure bull jive.
4. Eddie Gran was the hardest call. But if Gran was so screwed by Stoops and his offensive genius was way better than Stoops allowed...why did nobody pick up the phone to get him as solid SEC OC? And why did Gran decide to stay on staff at UK in other capacity if Stoops messed it all up?
5. Stoops made bad decision on Dawson and Scangerallo...that is fair criticism on Stoops.

But I have high hopes Coen turns this offense into a consistent unit like White was the defensive side. And the Stoops is the problem crowd will have to wait for another day to hammer Stoops on this one.
 
Does anyone believe Coen is coming back without an agreement in place to turn the offensive play calling over 100%? Coen has ALL of the leverage in this situation. Stoops knows he just completely underperformed in the season with his best personnel ever.

Blew the season, won 7 games and got a nearly 2 million dollar raise. Let that all sink in.
Why does Stoops even care if he can underperform and still get a $2mil raise
 
I think that Stoops just tells his OC a few things then leaves them mostly alone. And as the HC he has every right to do so. I do not think that he micromanages like some like to think he does.

For example, I think Stoops probably goes to his OC and says:
-The team that wins the TO battle usually wins
-The team that rushes more usually wins
-The team that wins the TOP battle usually wins
-The team that adjusts to their personnel usually does better than one that doesn't


I think that in game, Stoops probably is like any other coach that I've ever been with on the sidelines. The defensive minded coaches will shout little things to help out.....and vice versa for the offensive guys. "Hey, they're baiting with #53....he's faking blitz to back off in coverage." "Hey, they're pinching the DL.......they're vulnerable on the edges."

Also, like any HC there are situations. For example, if it's the closing minutes of the first half and we have the ball. Maybe we haven't been able to move the ball well. Maybe our personnel is not built for speed. Maybe the other team has been able to move the ball well lately. Maybe we don't have momentum. A TON of HC's will say, "run it out and lets adjust at the half." A lot of fans will say, "Hey we've got time, go, go, go....."



Now, certainly, this "can" change what an OC might do in some situations.....which some would call hindering or interfering. I can tell you that I've been in locker rooms and on sidelines (including a few times with UK during the Neal Brown time) with many programs in HS and college.......and what is described above is absolutely the typical way things are done.
 
"He (Stoops) said Scangarello was taking 37 seconds between snaps, and that he wants to go faster. This is direct evidence that fans criticizing Stoops for slowing down the current offense are not only wrong, and not only stuck 8 years in the past, but they also don't understand what is different now with our team."

You think Gran slowed the pace down, over the objections of the Head Coach? All season? Like Stoops could not at any point say "Speed it up. We need points!"

That is rich. I hope he did not really say that. EVERYONE knows Stoops Coach's Offense and Defense from a Defensive posture. (he does not care about special teams, at all.)
So wrong on every level. We just hired a ST coach with mucho experience. I am not even going to go into the rest of it
 
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Back when Shannon Dawson was here, Stoops wanted the clock to run so his thin (at that time) defense would not get anymore gassed than necessary. Back then, he mainly had Joker's players and there was very little quality depth, so "shortening" the game made some good sense. Soon, Stoops developed winning streaks over SCar and MO even though those teams had more talent than we had.

Now, Stoops has built a deep, talented defensive roster. This season, UK had the 3rd best defense in the SEC, behind only GA and AL statistically.

When Stoops fired Scangarello, he said at the press conference that one reason was because Scangarello was running the offense TOO SLOW. He said Scangarello was taking 37 seconds between snaps, and that he wants to go faster. This is direct evidence that fans criticizing Stoops for slowing down the current offense are not only wrong, and not only stuck 8 years in the past, but they also don't understand what is different now with our team. In fact, UK used some uptempo in 2021 and at times in 2022. Inconvenient facts for people that search for criticisms against Stoops whether factual or not.

TN, MS St, and OM have been using uptempo in order to attack talented defenses. They did it to us, so Stoops knows this full well. Stoops is 54-34 including 4-2 in bowl games at UK since the 2016 season, and is putting players in the NFL. There is a reason for this. He understands how to adapt and develop.
But didn't we use a pro style huddle offense last year under Coen? You can only go so fast in that system.
 
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But didn't we use a pro style huddle offense last year under Coen? You can only go so fast in that system.

We did. If you listen closely, stoops really complained about how long it took getting calls and lining up; which was back to the complexity.

For anyone that believes stoops wholesale denial of offense involvement can just go back to some of these sec network behind the scenes specials where he says on the headset "give it to Benny" over and over and over.

Combine that with "complimentary football" and interviews like Levis discussing "managing the game". Does stoops stand there with a play sheet calling plays? No. Does he influence generally what the offense does? Absolutely
 
The narrative Stoops is handcuffing the offense....Coen all but dispels that notion.

1. Coen's offense scored 32 pts a game and was very good passing and running. If Stoops was such a ball control freak...it'd be hard for a first time OC in Coen to get away with what he did.
2. Coen coming back is basically a nail in that coffin of Stoops controls things. Do you really think Coen would leave Rams to come back if Stoops was such a meddler?
3. Neal Brown is an often-overlooked OC that was fine in his 2nd year and then left for head coach at Troy. There was never any evidence Stoops was handcuffing him in year 2. Towles had a good first year at QB, Juice Johnson got on the scene, CJ Conrad got some good run that year, Javess Blue was a nice piece at WR, Boom Williams/JoJo Kemp were good run tandem. But somehow that narrative got stuck on Stoops he was not good for Neal Brown to work with. Pure bull jive.
4. Eddie Gran was the hardest call. But if Gran was so screwed by Stoops and his offensive genius was way better than Stoops allowed...why did nobody pick up the phone to get him as solid SEC OC? And why did Gran decide to stay on staff at UK in other capacity if Stoops messed it all up?
5. Stoops made bad decision on Dawson and Scangerallo...that is fair criticism on Stoops.

But I have high hopes Coen turns this offense into a consistent unit like White was the defensive side. And the Stoops is the problem crowd will have to wait for another day to hammer Stoops on this one.


Absolutely.

I was fortunate enough to be around the locker room and sidelines a few times during the Neal Brown era. Brown himself said that he wasn't bothered and that he and Stoops saw eye to eye.

Moreover, the friend who allowed me to be around the program during the time, years later visited Brown in West Virginia. My friend asked/joked with Brown "What would it take to bring him back to call plays under Stoops?...." Brown said, "Well, I'm just getting started here, but I'd go back in a heartbeat....."

Unfortunately, the personnel of the entire team didn't yield much back then to do anything.





Now, as you said, let's look at hires like Dawson. Why didn't this work out? Dawson didn't care about personnel, he didn't care about team cohesion of philosophy. We had a QB that was a big dude and was quite mobile. He ran fairly well for over 300 yds the year before with Brown. His decision making was so-so and still developing. He wasn't very accurate with long balls. The receiving options were absolutely terrible for the most part.......poor hands, poor routes. But did Dawson lead on guys like Boom Williams, Jojo Kemp, and Towles running ability? Heck no.....he forced Towles not to run and throw the ball down field to poor WR's and in poor coverage. Shoot, I would hope we'd all fire Dawson after stuff like that.


What about Scang? Well, look at Dawson. In 2019 Levis ran for 213 yds. 2020 ran for 260. 2021 ran for 376. In 2022 ran for -107. And CRod registers his lowest YPC in his career. Now, certainly, you can say that a lot of this is poor OL play........but goodness, that can only cause so much damage.
 
I think our offense has been dictated more by the personnel than anything else. Qbs have not been strong. Running game has. I've never wondered, why is Benny Snell getting the ball again. Why isn't Stephen Johnson letting it go.

I think our coordinate have been responsible callers. And I would be disappointed if Stoops let Gran air it out and go crazy with the teams we had. Only time I've been truly confused is this year. And I blame it more on Scan not saying to blitzes and I kind play.
 
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It comes down to this: even if Stoops isn’t “handcuffing” the OC, who will have the final say on running a two minute offense before the half or taking it to the locker room? Who will have the final say on sitting on a lead and trying to milk the clock? Who will have the final say on whether or not to be conservative and play for a FG in certain situations? It’s always going to be Stoops in those situations making those key decisions and the vast majority of the time he’s going to play it very, very conservative.
 
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Been reading over and over on this board about how Stoops handcuffs his offensive coordinators and smothers the offense. How we will never have an effective offense at UK so long as Stoops is here.

Trying to reconcile these
"facts" with Coen coming back.

Coen has been here. He knows working under Stoops. Are we to believe Coen is willfully putting handcuffs on to stifle his growth and career advancement?

For once I would really like to hear from these Stoops critics. With Stoops exerting overbearing control of the offense, why did Coen come back?
Winner, winner, chicken dinner!
 
"He (Stoops) said Scangarello was taking 37 seconds between snaps, and that he wants to go faster. This is direct evidence that fans criticizing Stoops for slowing down the current offense are not only wrong, and not only stuck 8 years in the past, but they also don't understand what is different now with our team."

You think Gran slowed the pace down, over the objections of the Head Coach? All season? Like Stoops could not at any point say "Speed it up. We need points!"

That is rich. I hope he did not really say that. EVERYONE knows Stoops Coach's Offense and Defense from a Defensive posture. (he does not care about special teams, at all.)
Read again more carefully and see if it clears up for you. Gran was the OC IN THE PAST. I am discussing the PRESENT. As roster depth has gotten better, that has allowed adaptation and innovation on both sides of the ball. You are right about special teams, but that is a different discussion. For months, I have been asking for an experienced special teams coach. Now we finally have one.

Meanwhile, when you have a thin defense, you have to shorten the game. But when you are three-deep with SEC level players at every defensive position, that changes the thinking and the approach. Our coaches are professionals who understand tactical football and player development. You can believe this or not. Over time, things change. We now have the 3rd best defense in the SEC. Our defense was a team weakness in the past, but is the primary team strength now. With the improved defensive depth, our offense can go faster and lengthen the game when our coaches want to do that. Did you see the press conference? The numbers are what they are, and the evidence is right in front of your face.
 
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I think our offense has been dictated more by the personnel than anything else. Qbs have not been strong. Running game has. I've never wondered, why is Benny Snell getting the ball again. Why isn't Stephen Johnson letting it go.

I think our coordinate have been responsible callers. And I would be disappointed if Stoops let Gran air it out and go crazy with the teams we had. Only time I've been truly confused is this year. And I blame it more on Scan not saying to blitzes and I kind play.


Agreed.

I think it’ll be interesting over the next year or so. Let’s assume we land a QB from the portal but don’t find a bell cow RB. This “might” be the first time in Stoops’ tenure where the offense has a decent QB, promising receiving options like Dingle/Key/Brown, but don’t have super stellar RB options. I would not be surprised to see the pass/run ratio change.....and it won’t be due to Stoops changing philosophies.
 
Better term 3 yards and a cloud of dust big 10 football
Well for starters the b10 has 2 teams in the playoffs. Neither team is 3 yards and a cloud of dust, or do they run a pass happy offense. They just have great players and talent makes everything look good

Number 2, that has not been our offense. Not at all. Was it an air raid? No. But it was not bill curry Kentucky football. Also I’ll say again, you can play winning football with any style if you have the personnel and execution. I just want to win. I dont care how
 
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The narrative Stoops is handcuffing the offense....Coen all but dispels that notion.

1. Coen's offense scored 32 pts a game and was very good passing and running. If Stoops was such a ball control freak...it'd be hard for a first time OC in Coen to get away with what he did.
2. Coen coming back is basically a nail in that coffin of Stoops controls things. Do you really think Coen would leave Rams to come back if Stoops was such a meddler?
3. Neal Brown is an often-overlooked OC that was fine in his 2nd year and then left for head coach at Troy. There was never any evidence Stoops was handcuffing him in year 2. Towles had a good first year at QB, Juice Johnson got on the scene, CJ Conrad got some good run that year, Javess Blue was a nice piece at WR, Boom Williams/JoJo Kemp were good run tandem. But somehow that narrative got stuck on Stoops he was not good for Neal Brown to work with. Pure bull jive.
4. Eddie Gran was the hardest call. But if Gran was so screwed by Stoops and his offensive genius was way better than Stoops allowed...why did nobody pick up the phone to get him as solid SEC OC? And why did Gran decide to stay on staff at UK in other capacity if Stoops messed it all up?
5. Stoops made bad decision on Dawson and Scangerallo...that is fair criticism on Stoops.

But I have high hopes Coen turns this offense into a consistent unit like White was the defensive side. And the Stoops is the problem crowd will have to wait for another day to hammer Stoops on this one.
#3...was told by someone close to that situation something totally different.
 
Football requires in game decisions, which includes what is needed to WIN the game. Stoops has proven more times than not, that his strategic decisions during a game are correct. You don’t pay a guy this kind of money to be bad at what he does. You arm chair quarterbacks making less in a lifetime than Stoops does in 3 football games, look stupid.
 
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The narrative Stoops is handcuffing the offense....Coen all but dispels that notion.

1. Coen's offense scored 32 pts a game and was very good passing and running. If Stoops was such a ball control freak...it'd be hard for a first time OC in Coen to get away with what he did.
2. Coen coming back is basically a nail in that coffin of Stoops controls things. Do you really think Coen would leave Rams to come back if Stoops was such a meddler?
3. Neal Brown is an often-overlooked OC that was fine in his 2nd year and then left for head coach at Troy. There was never any evidence Stoops was handcuffing him in year 2. Towles had a good first year at QB, Juice Johnson got on the scene, CJ Conrad got some good run that year, Javess Blue was a nice piece at WR, Boom Williams/JoJo Kemp were good run tandem. But somehow that narrative got stuck on Stoops he was not good for Neal Brown to work with. Pure bull jive.
4. Eddie Gran was the hardest call. But if Gran was so screwed by Stoops and his offensive genius was way better than Stoops allowed...why did nobody pick up the phone to get him as solid SEC OC? And why did Gran decide to stay on staff at UK in other capacity if Stoops messed it all up?
5. Stoops made bad decision on Dawson and Scangerallo...that is fair criticism on Stoops.

But I have high hopes Coen turns this offense into a consistent unit like White was the defensive side. And the Stoops is the problem crowd will have to wait for another day to hammer Stoops on this one.
We should have had Florida in the swamp if I remember correctly. That might've been one of the best jobs by a oc that I remember.

Outside of Boom, he didn't have any NFL talent to work with. That has changed,and I would love to see him coach a team with Key,Brown,Dingle ect.

Stoops will have to open it up next year,and I believe he will. People have no idea how good C-rod and Benny were.
When you have backs like that you have to hand it off 30 times. Add the fact he hasn't been able to get a good QB before coen,added to the grind it out mentality.
 
Most OC’s think HC may throttle them a little bit. But, the fact that a fired OC is still on staff and former OC is coming back after 1 year dispels a lot of myths about Stoops handcuffing the offense.

I also think it speaks volumns about the culture Stoops has built. I have thought for some time that one of Stoops’s greatest strengths is ability to build a culture where people want to be. I think players and coaches genuinely like being around Stoops and part of the program. That’s huge for a program trying to pass up other programs. Culture isn’t quickly built, but it pays off in spades.
 
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