At that time Billy would have come in a minute. Was at Marshall. Prior to his taking Florida.
You think he would have turned UK down? Really?
A different negative take on Tubby’s teams that Tubby holdouts should at least note
- Thread starter WildcatsAndBourbon
- Start date
You think he would have turned UK down? Really?
That's what has always been said. And he supposedly did again when Tubby left.
And Donovan took over UF in 1996. He was at UF when Pitino left.
I'm not buying that. It's about the titles and final fours here. They were all 3 failures in those regards.
And have to chuckle at the regular season Champs BS. Tubby teams get the special education grading curve.
If we grade solely on FFs and Titles, that means only 8 teams were ever good here and the rest were failures.
I have high expectations too, but that's pushing it. You can still say a team was fun, great, or even likable without that.
Count me among the number who loved Tubby the most of all coaches who coached here.
You’re right OP, the kids UK has been getting, are not here for the name on the front of the jersey. Nope, they are certainly here for Cal and the fast track to the NBA.
But there are kids out there that are playing for the name on the front of their jerseys. They’re called national champions and Final 4 participants.
Yeah, that’s right, take a look at the programs that are winning and look at how their rosters are built. They’re all kids that developed in their programs and get this, they still liked playing for their coaches… . and get this (again), a lot of those players developed enough to get good run in the NBA, but you don’t hear Tony Bennett, Bill Self and Jay Wright bragging about it like Cal does.
Funny thing is, those other coaches actually developed those kids into NBA players, Cal is taking credit for getting kids drafted that were already getting drafted before they came here.
That Cal, he’s such an innovator, he’s so good, he has fooled die hard UK fans for 14 years, they think UK basketball is Cal's top priority. Dude is laughing his ass off as he avoids talking to you.
But there are kids out there that are playing for the name on the front of their jerseys. They’re called national champions and Final 4 participants.
Yeah, that’s right, take a look at the programs that are winning and look at how their rosters are built. They’re all kids that developed in their programs and get this, they still liked playing for their coaches… . and get this (again), a lot of those players developed enough to get good run in the NBA, but you don’t hear Tony Bennett, Bill Self and Jay Wright bragging about it like Cal does.
Funny thing is, those other coaches actually developed those kids into NBA players, Cal is taking credit for getting kids drafted that were already getting drafted before they came here.
That Cal, he’s such an innovator, he’s so good, he has fooled die hard UK fans for 14 years, they think UK basketball is Cal's top priority. Dude is laughing his ass off as he avoids talking to you.
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Not that I disagree with you, but I don't her Bennett bragging about much of anything these days. And Self is a cheat. Jay Wright is about the only one who can say much.
Cal needs a title this year to salvage his rep and legacy. It will be mutually beneficial for both him and BBN.
It’s real easy to say others are cheating. Cal has had his hand slapper many times, so lets not act like he's Jesus Christ. Bill Self might have his issues, but the guy can coach and rigjt now, he has his program doing all the right things.
Tony Bennett can still brag all he wants, he still has a national title to his name at Virginia, not UK, duke, unc, ku etc… Virginia. And it's how he did it that I'm referencing here.
But regardless, my point doesn’t change, you're attacking coaches instead of addressing what I said, the teams getting to final 4's and winning titles, are teams that have 3 and 4 year players that have developed in their systems and played for the name on the front of their jerseys.
If you're fielding teams full of kids that are focused on the NBA draft and are talking about how "Cal gets kids to the league faster than anybody", well, you ain't winnin' shit.
Eh.. I think this whole playing for the front of the jersey vs back of jersey is ridiculously overblown.
There is not one guy who has stayed in college basketball for 3-4 years who wouldn't have traded spots with a one and done that was drafted 1st round and was guaranteed millions. Not one. And if they say that, they are liars.
I couldn't care less if they are playing for the name on the front, the name on the back, their family, their dog, their teammates...I don't care. I want guys who play hard and play to win. That is all I care about as a fan.
Never said anything about non-NBA draft picks trading places with draft picks. That’s not what we're talking about here.
It is Cal's choice to go out and recruit guys that are only going to college for the required 1 year (and Wheeler for some odd reason)
You aren't going to be good enough to get to a final 4 if your team is not totally connected. It can't be about individual accomplishments.
At UK, it's about individual acvomplishments. Does Cal want to win? Sure. But he’s not willing to change the culture to Team-UK to do it. He wants to have his NBA- draft-first cake and eat it too.
You can't tell me the culture at UK is the same as it is at Villanova, Baylor, uva, KU or UConn. It’s not.
Bottom line is, Cal has had 22 first round draft picks since the 17 season ended. Some of them were lottery picks. You can probably add up all 24 teams that made the FF the last 6 years and not find 22 draft picks. So, Cal has had the most talent by a thousand miles, why has UK sucked so bad? There has to be a reason, what is it?
This post is hilarious. You'll fall all over itself to invent every fictional excuse under the sun for Cal. Why not Tubby? Does Cal let you live rent free in his basement? Or maybe the shed out back?
Leave it to 1 certain poster to take a op that had nothing to do with Calipari and agree with it by making it all about Calipari lol.
Well if it had nothing to do with Cal why was he mentioned in comparison in the very first sentence of the post and then again in the last paragraph?
I think you may be talking about two separate things. Yes, Cal has massively underachieved with all the talent he has recruited. I don't think anyone would argue that.
But these guys that are staying 3-4 yrs and winning a championship aren't doing so for that reason (winning a championship, culture, etc), they are doing so because they aren't good enough to get drafted.
Oscar was the NPOY and came back...why? Not because of culture, or to win...it's cause he wasn't good enough to get drafted. Even if he says all the right PR stuff about loving UK and the fanbase and trying to win a championship, that's not why he came back at all.
And by and large, by all accounts, most of Cal's teams have been super connected. Like the vast majority. They lost because of crappy free throw shooting/three point shooting and a deficiency at the head coaching position, not because of culture or pursuing individual goals.
This is just ignorant. Completely full of blind hatred and not rooted in logic at all.
True.. he did shoot us down twice, but if you get time go listen to Oscar Combs podcast with either Brooks Downing, or maybe it was Oscar and Jim Hosts interview they talk about Billy D on it. They talk about how Billy maybe had some real interest in coming to UK, but first he wanted Ricks blessing and Rick was behind the scenes saying to CM Newton that Billy wasn't ready to coach at a place like UK yet. Then, ya have Rick supposedly saying that CM is the one who said Billy may not be ready yet... so something about it all comes off odd to me.
I do think Rick is petty like that and maybe didn't want anyone to do better than he. Almost like when he took credit for getting Cal the job and then got caught up in a lie over that after even saying he was paying part of Cals salary as UMass and everything else.
Now, I don't know if Oscars podcast is the gospel truth or not but it's an interesting listen if you get the chance to listen to it. Those guys do know a lot of the things that goes on behind the scenes though.
They’re winning titles because they're not good enough to get drafted??? This makes zero sense.
1) Some of those juniors and seniors ended up getting drafted BECAUSE they developed in college.
2) The NBA drafts on potential. Most kids that get drafted aren't as good as the juniors and seniors in college, they're getting drafted based on what they will be. So all these people that get all excited about draft picks on the roster, simply don't get it.
3) Cal has had 22 first rounders in the last 6 years, lets compare that 6 year run to Villanova, unc, UVA, UConn, KU, Baylor etc… UK should never suck like this. Hiw do you explain the failures at UK when Cal has had THAT much more talent?
4) Basketball, especially at the college level, is about team cohesiveness now more than ever. That’s not the culture at UK. It’s all about individual play, accomplishments and goals.
When you only have your players for 1 year, you're never going to be a cohesive team that is good enough to beat teams that are fielding juniors and seniors that have been playing together for 3+ years.
5) When you are recruiting guys that are already slated to go to the draft after 1 season, your priority is getting kids drafted, winning titles is not your top priority.
This is all common sense and the best part is, all the data backs up what I'm saying.
Cal has had 10 times the NBA talent as anyone not named duke and in fact, they have had more NBA talent than duke too, but what has Cal done with that talent?
Why did Villanova win multiple titles with mostly non-NBA talent?
Why did Baylor win a title with mostly non-nba talent and a 6'5" center?
How much NBA talent did UConn have last season?
How much NBA talent did KU have in '22?
In fact, take a look at each FF since the 2015 season, how many lottery pick freshmen were in any of those final 4's?
Just take a minute and look at the recipe for success in college ball right now. The answer is soooo simple and obvious.
Is Kentucky a college team, or an NBA farm system? They look.like a farm system to me. If your goal.is to win titles, you don't run your program this way.
Don't know. But what does that have to do with their 2022 title? Did they lose 8 players to the portal after the '21 season?
The '23 season hasn't been played yet. I won't be surprised if they struggle this year. If they have a good year, BS will have done a great job.
Yeah, he posted a fact, but I have another fact for you, the 23/24 season hasn't been played yet.
Maybe you misunderstood what I posted, or I just didn't explain it well. Again, like I said, no one is disputing that Cal has massively underachieved. Not sure why you keep bringing up all his draft picks and subsequent lack of success. I agree with that.
Guys who return to school do so because they aren't getting drafted, not because of the culture of the program or to win a championship. Maybe back in the 90s or early 2000s I would agree with that, but that is simply not the case anymore. That doesn't mean guys can't develop into NBA players their 3rd or 4th yr. Not sure what you are arguing here. These are two separate concepts.
You are too hung up on culture. Culture is not the reason why the Cats have been eliminated in the tourney each year that Cal has been here. Go through each loss. Had absolutely nothing to do with a lack of culture or team connectivity. Not sure why you are so obsessed with that. It is so overrated.
I couldn't care less if UK is an NBA farm team (even though UK has had numerous returnees over the past few years compared to prior years). Doesn't bother me one bit, because that, nor has it ever been, the reason UK has gone home early.
As I stated in my previous post, it has been because of terrible free throw and three point shooting, coupled with Cal's atrocious stall ball. Absolutely nothing to do with team culture...or UK having an NBA farm system.
That Tubby team with Fitch, Daniels, that 6'6" center who played in the NBA forever (getting old, names dropping away) was the best team ball team I'd ever seen. Swept the SEC undefeated. Man when they lucked out against some some 2nd rate Alabama A&M I was devastated. But I wrote Tubby a letter thanking him for that year and he personally wrote me back.
You think culture has nothing to do with the losing? Cal is supposed to be a hof coach and he's had, by far, the most talent. He’s either an awful coach, or his culture is preventing his teams from truly playing as a team (it's both actually).
The reason I continuously bring up the culture, is because this culture is all about individual accomplishments and goals. It is, that can’t be disputed. So, with that being the case, how do you think a group of individualists will fare against a true team? Follow me?
You're not going to win anything of note in today’s game if you aren't playing a true team game and this current culture is preventing that from happening. I see a bunch of selfish and 1 on 1 play. I hope you get what I'm saying here.
You said you don't care that UK is a farm team, to me, that’s sad. That should never be acceptable.
As far as these numerous returnees at UK, well, yeah, nobody is saying that 100% of Cal's teams leave every year. But damn, even Lance Ware left this year. We have 2 returning players. That's bad.
Lastly, your take on the players on those other teams not being good enough to get to the NBA, so they had to return. Are you saying they had no other choices? These kids can transfer and not sit. Even when they had to sit out, it wasn't very difficult to do, especially for kids that know they are never going to the NBA.
I get it, this isn’t the 90's, kids aren't repping their schools the way they used to, but I see a whole lot more pride elsewhere than I do at UK.
We can just agree to disagree. But I wouldn't lose sleep over Ware not returning. The guy is what he is, unfortunately.
I would say this, if you can point to culture being the reason UK lost any of their tourney games they have since 2010 (Cal's first tourney run with UK), I am all ears...
2010-lost to WVA because Cats shot 4-32 from 3 and Cal didn't know how to attack zone.
2011-lost to UConn in Final Four in which Terrence Jone shot 4-12 from FT and Brandon Knight couldn't hit a shot in one of the lowest scoring final fours ever.
2012-champs
2013-Noel injury
2014-runner up, shot 5-16 from 3, 13-24 on FTs
2015-final four, lost cause stupid Cal went to stall ball too early
2016-lost everyone from yr before (rightfully so), led by only Murray and Ulis, lost round of 32, Murray 1-9 on 3s
2017-elite 8, lost to UNC, actually have nothing bad to say other than poor reffing
2018-sweet 16 lost to KSU cuz PJ couldn't make any FTs to save his life, team shot 23-37 as a whole from line
2019-elite 8 lost to Auburn, shot 5-21 on 3s, 12-21 FTs
2020-covid
2021-poor roster construction, all on Cal
2022-2 seed lost to St Peter's, 4-15 on 3, 23-35 FTs
2023-Antonio Reeves goes 1 for flippin 15
None of these results have anything to do, whatsoever, with culture.
Not quite sure what you mean...are you asking which 3-4 yr guys I would turn down? Or something else?
Which 1 and done would you have turned down? In retrospect it is easy to look back and see which didn't work out. Sometimes it takes them a couple or 3 years and NBA drafts on potential, sucks for us
You’re looking too deep at those losses.
Again, look at the teams that are winning titles, do you see the differences between those teams and UK?
Also, look at the teams UK has lost to in the tournament, in all but 2 of our losses, we lost to an underdog.
Yeah, there were some good moments where true talents showed up and made big shots, but the bottom line is, our teams keep choking, whether it's from the free throw line, the defense, or a bad shooting night, we choked.
I see a big difference between UK and the teams that are solid each season.
Question, what are you guys going to say when this team ends up with 10+ losses and a sweet 16 exit? What then? At what point is everyone going to realize that this isn’t going to work, no matter what coaches and ace recruiters Cal brings in. You simply aren't going to win a title in this team sport while running a culture that promotes individual goals and accomplishments. Not gonna happen.
He inherited a team who just had back to back title game appearances with 6 NBA players. SIX, which was unheard of back then.
This garbage that Tubby won a title is hilarious..
Dam good question, Tubby was and is still a class guy, and this guy wants to hate on him still, good lord !
Since 2020 but honestly 2017,2018,2019,2020 all were more effective and better teams than 90% of Tubby’s squads.
Calipari had 8 NBA players on his 17/18 team. He went 26-11 overall, 10-8 in the SEC and couldn't get past a bad Kansas State team, without their best player, in the sweet 16.
Who on that '98 team ended up being more than a role player in the NBA? Was there anyone at SGA's level?
Facts suck, don't they?
Vast majority of top teams have multiple NBA talent these, but in 1998 it was unheard of. Read that again.
And why is Cal part of this conversation? Todays game is nowhere close to where it was 25 years ago. If you want to talk Cal in comparison, Cal smoked Tubby while he was at Memphis and Cal was building that program from the ground. Tubby had a huge head start and still was garbage.
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Most overrated coach in Div-1 history.
If not for UK hiring him, nobody would know his name and he wouldve never even sniffed a final four.
He's good? How many schools wanted him gone post UK? He couldn't even win at High Point where the talent is equal. Only reason they didnt fire him is he donated millions to the school.
His kindness covers up how chitty of a coach he was/is. He's the only coach who could get fired from 30 schools and some of you guys will find a stat that he's amazing. He gets a free pass.
so if all it takes to win a national championship is to have 6 nba players on the team, Cal would win the title every year.
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