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5 star system is broken

Bogansistheman said:
So go ahead and do a quick comparison of Joe B and Tubbys resumes for me.
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I mean, I agree that Joe B and Tubby have very similar resumes.

But if Morg underselling Tubby relative to JBH is racism, then do you have some deep-seeded hatred for Italians?

Because neither Tubby or Joe B were in Cal's universe in their first 10 years. Rick was. Are you going to say that Rick was also no better than Joe B or Tubby because they had the same number of championships?

Ah, well, if you hate Italians so much, then I guess you might say that.
 
Ehh I have been disenchanted with the star systems for awhile... or the numerical ranking system in general. I would prefer a tier system. Tier players without a numerical order. No limits on the number of players in each tier... just criteria that must be met. Any system would have flaws, but believe it would be easier to see what you are getting from year to year. For instance number 10 in one class could be vastly different from number 10 in the next. But a tier 2 players is a a tier two player. You get a better idea of what you are getting.
 
The people who rate the kids see them a lot. Sometimes a kid jumps up if a school like Duke or UK shows interest or offers. There is for the most part a big drop in star power after the first 5-7 in most years. Also some kids can’t afford or don’t participate in all the AAU stuff so they are under the radar. It is not an exact science and every year 10-12 kids slip through the cracks and blow up in college. I would venture to say a higher % of the 5 stars wind up in the pros than those ranked below them.
 
Super Herro said:
You are missing the point.

I see a kid like Richards and I'm just shocked this guy was so high on the list. That ain't no five star.

He's been improving some, but I'm just curious how a kid like that gets so overhyped.

He must have just dominated kids in high school with his size and length. Because he's not very skilled.

Skal Labissiere is another story. How did a guy like that fool every scout in America?
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Compared to most other high school kids Richards is a five star talent. Yeah he is raw but you can see what he can become in stretches. If he becomes that he is easily a five star guy. At worst he would be a very high four star.
 
I would evaluate 4 and 5 star players and look for ballers they come at all levels even 3 stars. Hard to measure a person heart and determination. I see it every year wishing we had that kid and then find out they were a 3 star

drcats2013 said:
The ignorance from people like you never ceases to amaze me. He has been to 4 final fours and won 1 title in 10 years. At that rate, in our history, we would have around 50 final fours. More than twice any other school, and 11 titles. Can’t win them all, but he gives us a chance. Now, gtfo with your ignorance
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I know the data and I like Cal but it doesn't change anything. He still has 1 championship to show. We are Kentucky bring me championships. I let your punk ass worry about the other stats.
 
TBCat said:
The 5 star ratings are meaningless in basketball. In football it kind of works even though they are often wrong but in basketball you just go by how high they are rated in the top 50. Anyone in the top 50 should be capable of a NBA career even though they all won't end up being that. And yes there are some guys that are rated too high but Quickley and Richards aren't amoung them. Green however would have been about 100+ in my book.
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You just illustrated a huge part of the problem. People wildly overestimate the number of players who have a huge impact as freshmen in college, and wildly overestimate the number who go on to do anything in the NBA.

Take the 2010 NBA draft class. Players from that class are in their 9th NBA season, with the guys who haven't missed major time to injury at over 600 games played. As of today, only 17 guys drafted that year have played at least 400 games in the NBA, and only 17 are still in the league. 32/60 never even reached 200 games played.

Of those 17, 4 were considered the top 4 recruits in the 2009 HS class (Favors, Wall, Cousins, and Avery Bradley) and 2 others in the top 10 are still in the league, with only 2 from the 11-50 range.

For the 2010 class, the numbers are slightly better, but still very low. 7 of the top 10 are still playing (including Knight and Kanter), 5 of the next 40.

That's 13 top 10 recruits from those 2 classes still playing, 7 guys rated 11-50.

And among the 9 top 10 guys who weren't from UK, you saw freshman college numbers like this:

Avery Bradley: 11.6 ppg on 43% shooting.
Derrick Favors: 12.4 ppg/8.4 rpg
Lance Stephenson: 12.3 ppg/5.4 rpg, 44%shooting.
John Henson: 5.7 ppg/4.4 rpg
Tristan Thompson: 13.1 ppg/7.8 rpg
Will Barton: 12.3 ppg/4.9 rpg, 42.8% shooting

Good other than Henson, who received limited PT, but not dominant.

The other 3 are Kyrie Irving, Harrison Barnes, and Tobias Harris, who were all really good as freshmen, though only Irving was really dominant.

Cal's first 3 recruiting classes at UK spoiled a lot of fans and skewed expectations of players towards the unrealistic.
 
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sosoblue said:
I would evaluate 4 and 5 star players and look for ballers they come at all levels even 3 stars. Hard to measure a person heart and determination. I see it every year wishing we had that kid and then find out they were a 3 star



I know the data and I like Cal but it doesn't change anything. He still has 1 championship to show. We are Kentucky bring me championships. I let your punk ass worry about the other stats.
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He has! At as high of a rate or higher than all the rest of our coaches! You're just too stupid to notice
 
I'd be no coach worth anything in recruiting gives 2 ****s about stars. If a kid was unrated, but legit, he'd get recruited. Most kids we recruit are 5 stars because they are among the best in high school. None if any kids can go under the radar these days with AAU and the internet. If a 5 star kid doesn't end up being a lottery pick, you don't have to consider them a bust either.
 
Jkwo said:
I mean, I agree that Joe B and Tubby have very similar resumes.

But if Morg underselling Tubby relative to JBH is racism, then do you have some deep-seeded hatred for Italians?

Because neither Tubby or Joe B were in Cal's universe in their first 10 years. Rick was. Are you going to say that Rick was also no better than Joe B or Tubby because they had the same number of championships?

Ah, well, if you hate Italians so much, then I guess you might say that.
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That’s deflection at its finest. Joe B and Tubby are very close historically but somehow Cal is almost in Joe B’s league but Tubbys not even close. Did you take logic in high school?
 
Bogansistheman said:
That’s deflection at its finest. Joe B and Tubby are very close historically but somehow Cal is almost in Joe B’s league but Tubbys not even close. Did you take logic in high school?
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Don't talk to me about school, dude. I did this last night with Morg and it's exhausting. If you want to take my boards that I'm currently procrastinating on, that would be much appreciated.

Actually scratch that, because you can't read, you idiot.

In the incredibly short post that you quoted, I stated that Joe B isn't in Cal's universe.
 
mj2k10 said:
And you stupid when you ignore everything else.
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I know his body of work all I'm saying is he has one championship to show. Cal has recruited the #1 or #2 classes for 10 straight years at UK. We should have at least 2 or more National Championships in his era.
 
Bogansistheman said:
Actually it wasn’t. It was 100% factual. The opposite of yours. Tubby was a great coach. I’d take another one just like him. BCG was a train wreck that is really inexcusable. At Kentucky you just pretty much don’t hire a drunk and you win. Not all win at Cals level and you’re right we should appreciate him but he wasn’t the first and won’t be the last to win big at UK.
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Tubby was a good coach. Tubby was not a great coach. The expectation for a coach at Kentucky is to regularly put together teams that can contend for a national title. Tubby couldn’t do that.

An interesting data point to back this up is to look at historical AP poll data. In particular, to see how frequently coaches had their team ranked in the top 5.

Below is the list of Kentucky coaches ranked by the percentage of AP polls where UK was in the top 5. As you can see, it makes it plainly obvious why UK fans were frustrated with Tubby and doesn’t support the notion that Tubby was a great coach.
  • Rupp - UK was ranked in the top 5 in 54% of all polls from 1949 to 1972 (which is insane)
  • Pitino - 50%
  • Cal - 43% (on pace to get back up to 45% this year)
  • Hall - 39%
  • Sutton - 17%
  • Smith - 15%
  • Gilispie - 0%
As you can see, Tubby massively underperformed the other coaches who won a title at UK. More importantly, that 15% during Tubby’s tenure was only 12th highest in the country. Kentucky should never be ranked 12th in any NCAA basketball statistic related to having sustained success.

I’ll pass on another coach who performs at Tubby’s level.
 
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sosoblue said:
I know his body of work all I'm saying is he has one championship to show. Cal has recruited the #1 or #2 classes for 10 straight years at UK. We should have at least 2 or more National Championships in his era.
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He also has the youngest team in the country almost every single year. He doesn't need excuses made for him, since he has essentially the best record in the country, but acting as if UK's roster building method has only positives is just silly.
 
mj2k10 said:
Cal's first 3 recruiting classes at UK spoiled a lot of fans and skewed expectations of players towards the unrealistic.
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They were also supported by solid returning players. Patterson was one of the best players on the 2010 team and Darius Miller was a solid contributor for all 3 years he played under Cal. Liggins and Jorts were both integral to our success in 2011 as well. Quality returning talent provided a buffer so that we did not need multiple freshmen to be studs in a given class. Their contributions tended to get drowned out by the hype surrounding precocious newcomers.
 
ORCAT said:
You must have had your head deeply implanted in sand to make a statement and comparison like that. Talk about having no clue . . .
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I said he has 1 championship you want me to add his final fours, elite 8's and sweet16's will that make you feel better or can we Man up on this board and talk facts. Maybe the Tubby analogy rubbed people the wrong way who knows and don't really care.
 
I knew Herro would produce here. Too much swag not to. All you had to do was watch his 23 minute away game highlight videos.

Where do I apply?
 
TBCat said:
How the hell is that racist?
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Because he used the descriptive term "MASSIVE
difference between".
That is a trigger to race hustlers that you are automatically defining skin color.
The race card is also played when the initiator is lacking in refutation as a last resort to deflect.
Liberal playbook stuff...
 
UKnCincy said:
Tubby was a good coach. Tubby was not a great coach. The expectation for a coach at Kentucky is to regularly put together teams that can contend for a national title. Tubby couldn’t do that.

An interesting data point to back this up is to look at historical AP poll data. In particular, to see how frequently coaches had their team ranked in the top 5.

Below is the list of Kentucky coaches ranked by the percentage of AP polls where UK was in the top 5. As you can see, it makes it plainly obvious why UK fans were frustrated with Tubby and doesn’t support the notion that Tubby was a great coach.
  • Rupp - UK was ranked in the top 5 in 54% of all polls from 1949 to 1972 (which is insane)
  • Pitino - 50%
  • Cal - 43% (on pace to get back up to 45% this year)
  • Hall - 39%
  • Sutton - 17%
  • Smith - 15%
  • Gilispie - 0%
As you can see, Tubby massively underperformed the other coaches who won a title at UK. More importantly, that 15% during Tubby’s tenure was only 12th highest in the country. Kentucky should never be ranked 12th in any NCAA basketball statistic related to having sustained success.

I’ll pass on another coach who performs at Tubby’s level.
Click to expand...

I'm as trollish as anyone on how Cal's ego effects his frustrating and illogical decision making in games sometimes, but I'd rather have Cal coaching with dementia forever than another season with lazy ass Smith...
 
sosoblue said:
I know his body of work all I'm saying is he has one championship to show. Cal has recruited the #1 or #2 classes for 10 straight years at UK. We should have at least 2 or more National Championships in his era.
Click to expand...
Cool story.
 
The flaw is this. Many sites tend to rank the same number (24-30) kids as 5-stars every year. They don't account for classes year to year and don't have an accurate way to compare classes. For instance, a 5-star from a strong class might go all the way down to #35 and in other classes, it might be at #18. Instead, you end up with kids who who are ranked in the low 20's and have the 5-star tag, but comparably, aren't on that level.
 
UKnCincy said:
Tubby was a good coach. Tubby was not a great coach. The expectation for a coach at Kentucky is to regularly put together teams that can contend for a national title. Tubby couldn’t do that.

An interesting data point to back this up is to look at historical AP poll data. In particular, to see how frequently coaches had their team ranked in the top 5.

Below is the list of Kentucky coaches ranked by the percentage of AP polls where UK was in the top 5. As you can see, it makes it plainly obvious why UK fans were frustrated with Tubby and doesn’t support the notion that Tubby was a great coach.
  • Rupp - UK was ranked in the top 5 in 54% of all polls from 1949 to 1972 (which is insane)
  • Pitino - 50%
  • Cal - 43% (on pace to get back up to 45% this year)
  • Hall - 39%
  • Sutton - 17%
  • Smith - 15%
  • Gilispie - 0%
As you can see, Tubby massively underperformed the other coaches who won a title at UK. More importantly, that 15% during Tubby’s tenure was only 12th highest in the country. Kentucky should never be ranked 12th in any NCAA basketball statistic related to having sustained success.

I’ll pass on another coach who performs at Tubby’s level.
Click to expand...

So you arbitrarily cherry pick one worthless stat? Look, Tubbys last two years were bad. There’s no doubt it was time for him to go. The game changed to shoe companies and AAU and he didn’t change with it. The Tubby I’m talking about is the first 8 years. He was great. 1 title, 4 elite 8’s and 5 sweet 16’s. He also never failed not only to make the NCAA tournament but also win a game. They won a piece of the SEC title every year but one of those first 8. Cal has definitely been better but that doesn’t mean that Tubby wasn’t good.
 
Bogansistheman said:
So go ahead and do a quick comparison of Joe B and Tubbys resumes for me.
Click to expand...

Wait were you being serious? I’d be surprised but my God.

How old are you? Just wondering.

Hall went to 3 final fours, won an NIT when it meant something, won a title. Tubby has yet to put ONE of his own recruits in a SINGLE final four.

Let me guess, this is junk science and I’m a racist?
 
Jkwo said:
I mean, I agree that Joe B and Tubby have very similar resumes.

But if Morg underselling Tubby relative to JBH is racism, then do you have some deep-seeded hatred for Italians?

Because neither Tubby or Joe B were in Cal's universe in their first 10 years. Rick was. Are you going to say that Rick was also no better than Joe B or Tubby because they had the same number of championships?

Ah, well, if you hate Italians so much, then I guess you might say that.
Click to expand...

Honestly, I thought he was joking. It’s getting unreal around here.
 
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morgousky said:
Wait were you being serious? I’d be surprised but my God.

How old are you? Just wondering.

Hall went to 3 final fours, won an NIT when it meant something, won a title. Tubby has yet to put ONE of his own recruits in a SINGLE final four.

Let me guess, this is junk science and I’m a racist?
Click to expand...

NIT hasn’t meant anything since the 40’s, so that’s a lie. Tubby won a title, the same amount as Cal and Joe B. You can try to explain it away but his names on record. He never failed to not only make the NCAA but win at least 1 game. He was twice the overall number 1 seed, the same amount as Cal has been. He won either the SEC regular season or Tournament title in 7 of his first 8 years. A stat neither Joe B or Cal can match for any 8 year period. He had a team go 16-0 in the SEC, and not the watered down modern SEC and won 27 straight games. I wonder why you decided to cherry pick the one stat that makes him look bad, but then won’t do that for Joe B or Cal, what’s different about them?
 
Bogansistheman said:
NIT hasn’t meant anything since the 40’s, so that’s a lie. Tubby won a title, the same amount as Cal and Joe B. You can try to explain it away but his names on record. He never failed to not only make the NCAA but win at least 1 game. He was twice the overall number 1 seed, the same amount as Cal has been. He won either the SEC regular season or Tournament title in 7 of his first 8 years. A stat neither Joe B or Cal can match for any 8 year period. He had a team go 16-0 in the SEC, and not the watered down modern SEC and won 27 straight games. I wonder why you decided to cherry pick the one stat that makes him look bad, but then won’t do that for Joe B or Cal, what’s different about them?
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Your boy is at High Point. He was ran out of every job he’s had since Georgia. Tubby is a good coach for a smaller program, not UK.

No final fours in his entire career made up of a single guy he recruited. You asked, I answered. The NIT absolutely meant more when he won it.

No one who knows college ball would say Tubby’s resume is close to Joe Hall. No one. You’re on a crusade.
 
Bogansistheman said:
So you arbitrarily cherry pick one worthless stat? Look, Tubbys last two years were bad. There’s no doubt it was time for him to go. The game changed to shoe companies and AAU and he didn’t change with it. The Tubby I’m talking about is the first 8 years. He was great. 1 title, 4 elite 8’s and 5 sweet 16’s. He also never failed not only to make the NCAA tournament but also win a game. They won a piece of the SEC title every year but one of those first 8. Cal has definitely been better but that doesn’t mean that Tubby wasn’t good.
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Selecting a specific stat because it effectively highlights a point is neither arbitrary nor cherry picking.

Secondly, my post wasn’t to state that Tubby wasn’t good. Rather, it was in response to your assertion that Tubby was great. I explicitly stated that Tubby was a good coach. However, he was not a great coach. His performance at other schools and his inability to consistently field elite teams while at UK are evidence of that.

Look at it this way. Since 1949, UK has been ranked in the top 5 of 39% of all AP polls (459 out of 1,180). At only 15%, Tubby couldn’t even match half of our historical average. It’s no surprise that he never reached another final four after his first season. And it’s no surprise that UK’s prominence on the national scene dipped during his tenure.

Good coach, yes. Great coach, no.
 
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