“ Fit the system”

[AJG-15]

Since we are once again in the portal season and we discuss many options, wanted to ask about the “fit the system “ concept and how important it is . Obviously, we are talking about how they would fit in Pope offensive system but I think the discussion could be expanded a bit.

I will start here and I will add more later . In theory , if you are a club with tons of resources, and have a coach with a proven winning record, you could say I am only going to recruit and bring in players that fit my superior system.

On the flip side, other coaches with less resources at their disposal , adapt their style of play and game tactics to the players they can get.

There is also the option, where coaches will say: “ I want the best of the best” and I will make it work because talent beats experience or coaching style .

How important do you think it is to get players that fits the system vs getting the best of the best , super talented players?

Which approach is better for Kentucky?

How much emphasis should Pope put on skills shooting, passing , making reads, vs row talent and athleticism that he can in time develop into great shooters, passers, but also play defense?

 

[JPFisher]

Since we are once again in the portal season and we discuss many options, wanted to ask about the “fit the system “ concept and how important it is . Obviously, we are talking about how they would fit in Pope offensive system but I think the discussion could be expanded a bit.

I will start here and I will add more later . In theory , if you are a club with tons of resources, and have a coach with a proven winning record, you could say I am only going to recruit and bring in players that fit my superior system.

On the flip side, other coaches with less resources at their disposal , adapt their style of play and game tactics to the players they can get.

There is also the option, where coaches will say: “ I want the best of the best” and I will make it work because talent beats experience or coaching style .

How important do you think it is to get players that fits the system vs getting the best of the best , super talented players?

Which approach is better for Kentucky?

How much emphasis should Pope put on skills shooting, passing , making reads, vs row talent and athleticism that he can in time develop into great shooters, passers, but also play defense?

I think we have to have both.

Pope stated in an interview recently that Oweh does incredible things and has insane abilities. Sometimes, that's a negative, because if he'd just do things the way the system demands, we wouldn't have certain miscues or turnovers. That said, you also have some spectacular, momentum-changing and game-defining moments BECAUSE he goes off the rails.

I think that comment about Oweh provides a indication of how the roster needs to be built. You need a core group that fits the system, but you also need guys who can ad lib and take us to that next level. Imagine how much freer our shooters would've been this season if we had a couple slashers on the team who could take a dude off the dribble.

Pope's system isn't dribble-drive, but those kinds of players demand a different kind of respect. I believe I've seen the board refer to it as "gravity." Those players don't fall into Pope's system perfectly, but they command the defense's attention. So, while Oweh follows the system 80-90% of the time (that's an arbitrary number), sometimes it's his deviation from that that allows him to lead the team in scoring.

TL;DR – We need mostly system guys and a couple loose cannons, IMO.

On the other hand, if everyone is athletic but still has the skills for the Pope system, maybe we can do better with just system guys. Maybe we'll need a larger sample size (in years and roster compositions) to really tell.

 

[chasingwildcat]

I think we have to have both.

Pope stated in an interview recently that Oweh does incredible things and has insane abilities. Sometimes, that's a negative, because if he'd just do things the way the system demands, we wouldn't have certain miscues or turnovers. That said, you also have some spectacular, momentum-changing and game-defining moments BECAUSE he goes off the rails.

I think that comment about Oweh provides a indication of how the roster needs to be built. You need a core group that fits the system, but you also need guys who can ad lib and take us to that next level. Imagine how much freer our shooters would've been this season if we had a couple slashers on the team who could take a dude off the dribble.

Pope's system isn't dribble-drive, but those kinds of players demand a different kind of respect. I believe I've seen the board refer to it as "gravity." Those players don't fall into Pope's system perfectly, but they command attention. So, while Oweh follows the system 80-90% of the time (that's an arbitrary number), sometimes it's his deviation from that that allows him to lead the team in scoring.

TL;DR – We need mostly system guys and a couple loose cannons, IMO.

We need gravity guy

Because "system" can not work in all possessions

We need some guy can give us some hard basket when system can not work

We lack this kind of player last season

 

[UKAlum84]

I think we need multiple transfers at each position who can play at the same level as the starter.

 

[JPFisher]

We need gravity guy

Because "system" can not work in all possessions

We need some guy can give us some hard basket when system can not work

We lack this kind of player last season

I agree that that kind of guy would've been great.

That said, I'm curious if we need one or two gravity guys or if we could get the same effect with greater athleticism across the board.

 

[SemperFiCat]

It would be absolutely maddening to be a coach right now. Maddening.

 

[chasingwildcat]

I agree that that kind of guy would've been great.

That said, I'm curious if we need one or two gravity guys or if we could get the same effect with greater athleticism across the board.

I think our system is great.

When we face teams having similar or lower athleticism with us in beginning of the season, our system looks extremely great, we have #1 average scoring points per game. Our system then has some problem in SEC plays with better athletic opponents

We just need players with better size and athleticism or gravity guys in our system.

 

[BlueBomb]

I think we need multiple transfers at each position who can play at the same level as the starter.

Well, yeah...

 

[AJG-15]

I think we have to have both.

Pope stated in an interview recently that Oweh does incredible things and has insane abilities. Sometimes, that's a negative, because if he'd just do things the way the system demands, we wouldn't have certain miscues or turnovers. That said, you also have some spectacular, momentum-changing and game-defining moments BECAUSE he goes off the rails.

I think that comment about Oweh provides an indication of how the roster needs to be built. You need a core group that fits the system, but you also need guys who can ad lib and take us to that next level. Imagine how much freer our shooters would've been this season if we had a couple slashers on the team who could take a
TL;DR – We need mostly system guys and a couple loose cannons,

On the other hand, if everyone is athletic but still has the skills for the Pope system, maybe we can do better with just system guys. Maybe we'll need a larger sample size (in years and roster compositions) to really tell.

Very good point about Oweh. We need few more players like that . He was the most productive team player, most consistent and he leap tremendously from his previous year production. Some of it is him getting older but I think also has to do with playing in the system of Pope.

 

[AJG-15]

In my opinion we need to focus on multi year players that are long and athletic and have some good skills , let’s say good shooting form , good iq , good passing but maybe not so good dribbling that can develop in time.

As coach you can teach and develop almost everything but you can’t teach size and row athleticism.

 

[TFCats11]

“Fits the System”, is a Gas Lighting attempt to deflect from the fact that UK simply isn’t spending the money to compete with the other Blue Bloods!

I’m sure that’s going to cause some snowflakes to be BH, but it’s a fact, until proven otherwise!

Is that why UK passed on Dybansta, Wilson, Ament, Peterson, and numerous others in the portal?

Not stirring the pot, trolling, or otherwise, I’m legitimately wondering!

Edit: BTW, Pope heavily recruited all the players I listed above.

 

[AJG-15]

It would be absolutely maddening to be a coach right now. Maddening.

That’s why many of them retired.

 

[Butters' Dad]

“Fits the System”, is a Gas Lighting attempt to deflect from the fact that UK simply isn’t spending the money to compete with the other Blue Bloods!

I’m sure that’s going to cause some snowflakes to be BH, but it’s a fact, until proven otherwise!

Is that why UK passed on Dybansta, Wilson, Ament, Peterson, and numerous others in the portal?

Not stirring the pot, trolling, or otherwise, I’m legitimately wondering!

Edit: BTW, Pope heavily recruited all the players I listed above.

It's obvious to any who doesn't insist on self-delusion but there are more of those sorts of posters on here than sensible ones who can add 2 and 2.

 

[AJG-15]

“Fits the System”, is a Gas Lighting attempt to deflect from the fact that UK simply isn’t spending the money to compete with the other Blue Bloods!

I’m sure that’s going to cause some snowflakes to be BH, but it’s a fact, until proven otherwise!

Is that why UK passed on Dybansta, Wilson, Ament, Peterson, and numerous others in the portal?

Not stirring the pot, trolling, or otherwise, I’m legitimately wondering!

Valid point .

 

[AJG-15]

As other coaches learn to counter his offensive system having some disruptive players that can get their own and play defense to would beneficial. There were many times when Oweh saved us.

 

[shaudyshaud]

System should be adjusted based on personnel available.

 

[chasingwildcat]

System is good

But we also need player with good size and athleticism, and star players in the system

System will not always work

We need these kinds of players to create simple plays

We need talent in the system

 

[bucsrule8872]

Great thread OP.

Here is another thing: winning mentality.

Lamont Butler didn’t just “fit the system,” he was a winner. He was proven at this level.

If Butler hadn’t gotten hurt, we may very well still be playing right now.

I like to look at NCAA tournament experience as an important statistic.

Look at the guys Pope brought in last year:

Butler- played in the title game.
Kriisa- played in the Sweet Sixteen with Zona.
Almonor- won two tourney games as a 16 seed.
Brea- played in the tourney, won a game.
Carr- played In the NCAA tourney as a Freshman.
Robinson- played in the NCAA tourney.

Now finding guys like that is hard to do, especially now that the COVID year exemption guys are gone.

But those guys are the ones that, come tourney time, will not freeze up on you. They have already been there and they can pack you across the finish line.

We don’t make the Sweet Sixteen without those guys this year.

 

[AJG-15]

I disagree with the “ has to fit the Pope system” sentence ……

Any Coach is as good as the players he has. Sure Pope runs a great offensive system. Sure, his teams are not known for being defensive stoppers in the past…

But why do we have to associate Pope system with slow players that cannot defend but can shoot and pass amazingly?

There are plenty of athletic players that can also shoot and pass. We don’t need to settle for just players that can play offense only through offensive scheme and play no defense.

I get it , we all got tired of the Cal era of perceived athletes that could not shoot or the bigs that can shoot that Cal was pushing to play exclusively in the paint.


Pope is a smart guy. He knows that he is the coach at Kentucky not any longer the coach in Utah or BYU. I am expecting after his first year experience in SEC , he noticed the physicality that we will need to recruit for Kentucky.

If we want to win number 9 , we need to be again at the top of SEC , and get the number one seeding for the big tournament. Recruiting is a big part of it , just like coaching it is.

Let’s trust in Pope that he will figure out the right formula.

 

[Wildskatfan]

“Fits the System”, is a Gas Lighting attempt to deflect from the fact that UK simply isn’t spending the money to compete with the other Blue Bloods!

I’m sure that’s going to cause some snowflakes to be BH, but it’s a fact, until proven otherwise!

Is that why UK passed on Dybansta, Wilson, Ament, Peterson, and numerous others in the portal?

Not stirring the pot, trolling, or otherwise, I’m legitimately wondering!

Edit: BTW, Pope heavily recruited all the players I listed above.

Maybe it isn't the fact UK "Simply isn't spending the money" but maybe the fact we simply don't have the same money to spend as some of the other Blue Bloods.

 

[CrimsonCats]

If we want to win championships, then I don’t think this is an either or question. We need both. Cal was definitely on one extreme where he just trusted talented players to improvise everything and was chasing draft rankings more than paying attention to building a well balanced team, but that doesn’t mean talent doesn’t matter.

If you look at the teams in the Final Four right now, they have it all. They have rosters that fit together well for how they want to play, yes, but they also have some elite talents. Talent makes any system look better. So yes, give me players that can pass and shoot instead of just having a draft rating because of how they run and jump, but players who are both fundamentally sound and athletic do exist, and we need a few.

 

[AJG-15]

If we want to win championships, then I don’t think this is an either or question. We need both. Cal was definitely on one extreme where he just trusted talented players to improvise everything and was chasing draft rankings more than paying attention to building a well balanced team, but that doesn’t mean talent doesn’t matter.

If you look at the teams in the Final Four right now, they have it all. They have rosters that fit together well for how they want to play, yes, but they also have some elite talents. Talent makes any system look better. So yes, give me players that can pass and shoot instead of just having a draft rating because of how they run and jump, but players who are both fundamentally sound and athletic do exist, and we need a few.

Completely agreed.

 

[ralphdaltonfan]

System should be adjusted based on personnel available.

ALWAYS. Well said friend.

You get the best talent you can land-and fit your system around them. Now you could make a strong case that Kentucky is the type of program you should be able to land guys who not only fit what you want to do but also bring attributes you couldn't get at another place. This is what I'm waiting to see and giving Pope/Staff a chance to show. Oweh is a perfect example of fitting a guy in who wouldn't be a typical Pope recruit.

My take on losing some battles is not Pope related but rather media related. You can't get pissed off at a guy who overstayed his welcome for slipping in recruiting and then just because media personally likes his replacement, is on good terms, etc...ignore the fact he's flown to see some guys and is being rejected like an ugly girl in a Beauty Contest. We're told of the "War Chest" and how it's so much more expansive since Pope took over, then we're told of bidding wars and $ being an issue with players lost. Or "he didn't fit" or they were just checking in....at some point when you fly all over the country before a dead period-you aren't doing it for a check in, that's what Zoom meetings are for-just admit it's time to land some players. I've got faith that will happen but think the UK media (specifically from a KSR perspective) loves to cover for their bro-mances and ignores reality. You don't fly to visit Silas Demary for an in-home the day after you lose in the NCAA Tournament and then dismiss it like it wasn't someone UK wanted. That's total BULL****. The lying that came from losing out on Caleb Wilson was a joke. Those were lies and excuses. That recruitment was ALWAYS about $$$ and best deal presented. So where is this high end War Chest we've been told about? Outside of Oweh, not like the guys returning all couldn't be replaced if they are unhappy with their $ and in case of Noah/Perry they'd lose $ leaving UK for another school so they aren't the issue.

Just speak on facts and it's okay to say they need to close on some guys. That's not being critical as much as being observant.

 

[AJG-15]

ALWAYS. Well said friend.

You get the best talent you can land-and fit your system around them. Now you could make a strong case that Kentucky is the type of program you should be able to land guys who not only fit what you want to do but also bring attributes you couldn't get at another place. This is what I'm waiting to see and giving Pope/Staff a chance to show. Oweh is a perfect example of fitting a guy in who wouldn't be a typical Pope recruit.

My take on losing some battles is not Pope related but rather media related. You can't get pissed off at a guy who overstayed his welcome for slipping in recruiting and then just because media personally likes his replacement, is on good terms, etc...ignore the fact he's flown to see some guys and is being rejected like an ugly girl in a Beauty Contest. We're told of the "War Chest" and how it's so much more expansive since Pope took over, then we're told of bidding wars and $ being an issue with players lost. Or "he didn't fit" or they were just checking in....at some point when you fly all over the country before a dead period-you aren't doing it for a check in, that's what Zoom meetings are for-just admit it's time to land some players. I've got faith that will happen but think the UK media (specifically from a KSR perspective) loves to cover for their bro-mances and ignores reality. You don't fly to visit Silas Demary for an in-home the day after you lose in the NCAA Tournament and then dismiss it like it wasn't someone UK wanted. That's total BULL****. The lying that came from losing out on Caleb Wilson was a joke. Those were lies and excuses. That recruitment was ALWAYS about $$$ and best deal presented. So where is this high end War Chest we've been told about? Outside of Oweh, not like the guys returning all couldn't be replaced if they are unhappy with their $ and in case of Noah/Perry they'd lose $ leaving UK for another school so they aren't the issue.

Just speak on facts and it's okay to say they need to close on some guys. That's not being critical as much as being observant.

Like always , enjoying very much reading your takes. We need to speak the truth and make the correct observation even if they might not be popular. No one progresses with lies and butt kissing.

Media tends to cover stories in more favorable way , even lie , as long as they have access. KSR loves right now Pope because he provides access, compared to the last years of Cal where he cut their access and even tried to fire some of them according to them.

I think they are doing a disservice by not speaking the truth. The misinformation of Kentucky accounts being full for this year is hilarious. If we look at all the attempts to raise money were from far from spectacular .

I also think is completely stupid that we don’t use Cal’s former players that played at Kentucky for recruiting or fundraising. While Kentucky is rich in basketball tradition and BBN love is not as rich monetary as other SEC schools .

In few years, I am suspecting that the WAY we parted ways with Cal will be regarded as a mistake. I suspect that we could have used better Cal’s ability to sell and generate visibility to our program in national media to our program advantage and advancement.