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I like Kansas from a skill level this coming season. Svi will be much better with additional strength. Selden and Elllis should be better. Diallo is a top 10 pick. Bragg is versatile enough to give what it lacked last season on the interior. They probably have 3 guys who could be top 20 picks in '16 and another two guys who should be really good college players. If Self screws that up, I'm not sure what else he needs to make a legit tourney run with younger players.
 
I like Kansas from a skill level this coming season. Svi will be much better with additional strength. Selden and Elllis should be better. Diallo is a top 10 pick. Bragg is versatile enough to give what it lacked last season on the interior. They probably have 3 guys who could be top 20 picks in '16 and another two guys who should be really good college players. If Self screws that up, I'm not sure what else he needs to make a legit tourney run with younger players.

What makes you think that? Neither have improved yet, what makes you think they improve this year.

Bragg is a 3 in Self's system. And I'm not impressed.

Who are the 3 top 20 picks you refer to? Diallo is the only one I see.
 
I watched some of KU's games last at the end of last season. Ellis was playing as good as anyone in the country near the end of season until he got injured and didn't look the same when he came back in the Dance. He will a Wooden finalist if he stays healthy next year. Add Diallo in the middle who plays like a beast and KU will be really tough to beat.
 
What makes you think that? Neither have improved yet, what makes you think they improve this year.

Bragg is a 3 in Self's system. And I'm not impressed.

Who are the 3 top 20 picks you refer to? Diallo is the only one I see.


I think they'll be better based on experience and the assumed additional work loads alone. They're not lacking in talent, so a potential upward jump isn't unfathomable.

As for the top 20 picks comment - Diallo is a virtual lock. Bragg and Svi also have the potential. Scouts like Svi's size and shooting potential - and the fact that he was one of the youngest players in college basketball last year. With a big year, he will be a high level draft pick.

As for Bragg, had he picked UK, some would already be penciling him in as a top 20 pick. So the talent is there regardless of who he plays for. I've seen him play in person and I like his versatility, and based on recent drafts where stretch fours are highly valued, I think GMs will like it too. And just to clarify, I said they "probably" have three guys "who could" be top 20 picks. I made no definitive statement there but rather simply stated the realities of Kansas' talent level next season. Self has a great mix of younger guys and older guys. Should be interesting to see what he does with it.
 
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Top 20 team from last year. 2 seed in the tourny, they return:

Sr. F Ellis 14pts 7 rebounds also shot 39% from 3
Sr PF Traylor big body played in front of Alexander
Jr C Lucas 6'10 240 15 mins

Add

Carlton Bragg #20
Cheik Diallo #7


We have

Skal #1 recruit

Poythress coming off an ACL, who has averaged 5pts and 4 rebounds

Lee who has averaged 2pts and 2 rebounds and received less clock than all the KU players in this post

Willis who has barely played in 2 years and never in the paint




They also return:

Jr PG Mason 13 points 4 assists 4 rebounds point guard improved steadily
Jr SG Seldon (Top 10 5*)
So PG/SG Graham played well at the point and the 2
So Wing Svi good skills turned 17 at Kansas, has great potential
Jr SF Green 40% shooter


KU is impressive this year because they are one of the few programs with a lot of experience returning.

Both PG's are back, their starter's stats are better than Ulis whose numbers are closer to the backup for KU (Graham) - not that Ulis isn't better than both.

They lost one wing but return 3 capable shooters that are 6'5, 6'7 and 6'8

They have an experienced forward we recruited in Ellis, two bigs with experience along with 2 5* forward recruits.


Why people seem so unimpressed with this lineup during this particular season is beyond me.

KU may not have the high potential individual talent that we have, but they have proven players.


We are doing a lot of projecting on potential with real questions?

PG
Will Ulis be able to run the team the entire game and prevent being driven on?

KU's PG started every game avg 13pts, 4 rbs and 4 assists
Graham gained a lot of experience

2g
Briscoe will he excel off the point?

Seldon was a super high ranked 5* as well, and now is in his 3rd year having started every game.

SF
Mulder - Juco guard we haven't really seen, can he play at this level?

Green is 40% from 3 and Svi is their great white hope

PF
Perry Ellis, a senior who was highly ranked with a bunch of experience
Bragg and Traylor

Poythress, will he recover well enough from ACL, will he reach his potential?

C
Skal can he carry the load offensively and defensively?

Diallo and Lucas



KU has more depth than us at every position and can match us pretty well at each. If one of our kids doesn't live up to their billing it will be difficult.

That said each of KU's returners have things they had better have worked on (Svi shooting, Ellis toughness, Seldon shooting, Green defense).

And if Murray signs with UK the dynamics change even more.


Very nice breakdown,
What about Hunter Mickelson? The transfer from Arkansas, 6-10 245 and should be a senior this upcoming year.
All this depth is one reason why that I was wondering what Diallo was thinking for even consindering KU much less commit to them. Somebody is going to be warming a bench as their isn't enough time for everybody to play.
I'd think if the freshmen get all the playing time that their will be some upset upperclassmen who has been getting some PT in the past.
Or maybe Self is gonna put Diallo and Bragg on the bench to keep them their for next season?
 
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Traylor and Mickelson's reaction the day Diallo committed to Kansas...

tumblr_m8tmileu301rv63c0o1_500.gif
 
So did he coach a good game against Wisconsin? 3 shot clock violations? What about Uconn in the final in 2014? Refusing to go zone until down by 14. Or West Virginia in 2010? We keep chucking threes when we have the best big man in the country in Cousins down low? We were the favorite in all of those.

I guess i should rephrase; Cal does not do well "IN BIG GAMES" when he is the favorite. He gets too tight. Everybody and their mother knows this.

And this from a guy who never coached a day in his life.
 
When Cheick Diallo committed, Kansas became respectable. Diallo might be the single most impactful player in this class. Prior to that, they were in some trouble.

Certainly this is a joke, yes? A lengthy athlete with no basketball IQ, and no offense at all other than transition, and dunking, and he's the single most impactful player in the class? That's comical. To be the most impactful player in the class, you need to be able to open an offense up, and be a semi-versatile defender.
 


I wish so many wouldn't take legitimate critiques as "wanting Cal to leave". I don't want Cal to leave at all. I want him to stay forever. All I said was that he coaches tight in big games and he does. I think he himself would admit that.


A poster above asked "who is going to stop a three guard line-up with Ulis, Briscoe, and Murray", and the answer is no one except maybe Cal. Cal is likely to pull the reigns and slow them down in a big game aka "getting tight". I love Cal, but one of his flaw's is getting tight in big games. Hell he even got tight when we beat KU in 2012.

You could say this about every coach. Just using some of ours as an example. Rick in 1992(duke), 1997(AZ). Hall in 1975(ucla), 1982(MTS), and 1984(G-town), even Rupp in 1966. And none of these coaches had to contend with playing true and new freshmen every year. Big differences in having to depend on youth at critical times in the big games.
 
I watched some of KU's games last at the end of last season. Ellis was playing as good as anyone in the country near the end of season until he got injured and didn't look the same when he came back in the Dance. He will a Wooden finalist if he stays healthy next year. Add Diallo in the middle who plays like a beast and KU will be really tough to beat.

Pretty much the same pre-season they get every single year.
 
Even with Murray at UK, I'd put UNC slightly ahead of Kentucky to start the year because they've been together for a few years now.

C - Meeks
F - Johnson
F - Jackson
G - Paige
G - Berry/Britt

With Pinson, Hicks, and Williams off the bench.

#1. UNC
#2. Kentucky (with Murray)
#3. Duke
#4. Kansas
#5. Maryland
#6. Iowa State
#7. Virginia
#8. Arizona
#9. Oklahoma
#10. California (they could also be a train wreck, but my money is on the two top 10 picks).

I also think the top 5 next year will be virtually interchangeable.

Yeah, they've been together for a few years, resulting in double digit losses in the last 3 (10, 11, and 12).
 
Blue Decade said:
When Cheick Diallo committed, Kansas became respectable. Diallo might be the single most impactful player in this class. Prior to that, they were in some trouble.

Certainly this is a joke, yes? A lengthy athlete with no basketball IQ, and no offense at all other than transition, and dunking, and he's the single most impactful player in the class? That's comical. To be the most impactful player in the class, you need to be able to open an offense up, and be a semi-versatile defender.
Certainly it's hard to argue when he says "HE COULD BE" since he was the most impactful player in the Mickey D game by far.
 
You could say this about every coach. Just using some of ours as an example. Rick in 1992(duke), 1997(AZ). Hall in 1975(ucla), 1982(MTS), and 1984(G-town), even Rupp in 1966. And none of these coaches had to contend with playing true and new freshmen every year. Big differences in having to depend on youth at critical times in the big games.

Absolutely. Throw in 93 Michigan and 95 UNC for Pitino as well. By some of our "fans" logic all our coaches have sucked in big games except for Rupp (One can't argue with 4 titles). The fact is, you win some, you lose some. The other teams have guys that can play as well, coaches that can coach. OSU and UNC in 2011 were huge games, as were all four games from IU to KU in the 2012 tourney, as were all four games from WSU to Wisconsin in the 2014 tourney, and of course games this past year in the tourney, and before...as the team was undefeated and every tough road game the 2nd half of SEC play was a big game. Yeah, UK has lost plenty of big games under Cal, but UK has historically lost a lot of big games....but they have also won 8 national titles and have had coaches like Rupp, Hall, Pitino and Cal have the team in position to win even more titles over the years. Injuries, bad luck, poor officiating, poor coaching, poor players performances, etc, have all played big roles in why UK only has 8 (which is great obviously) so why some "fans" want to lay all the blame on the coach for some losses boggles my mind.
 
Blue Decade said:
When Cheick Diallo committed, Kansas became respectable. Diallo might be the single most impactful player in this class. Prior to that, they were in some trouble.


Certainly it's hard to argue when he says "HE COULD BE" since he was the most impactful player in the Mickey D game by far.
One game hardly makes him the most impactful player.Skal and Ben Simmons are rated higher for their overall work and not just one game.
 
Blue Decade said:
When Cheick Diallo committed, Kansas became respectable. Diallo might be the single most impactful player in this class. Prior to that, they were in some trouble.


Certainly it's hard to argue when he says "HE COULD BE" since he was the most impactful player in the Mickey D game by far.


Well I've actually watched Diallo play in person in a real game setting. He is really good in transition and completely disappears in the half court game.
What kind of game was the all star game? Up and down transition, he is gonna shine in that type of environment as he can beat most other bigs up and down the court.
I'd like to add that one team he played against had a big guy on the bench that was like 280 did not play in the first half at all, Diallo's team was killing em. After half time they slowed the game down big time got back on D after a shot and set up their D. On O they brought in Paul Bunyon off the bench and he just claimed the inside and threw his butt into Diallo everytime he come into the lane. Diallo ended up with maybe 3 rebounds and 2 run out buckets after halftime one of those was a slam after dude missed a layup and he followed him.

What am I saying? Keep Diallo out of the lane, put a body on him as he doesn't like constant bumping and don't let him get run out buckets. He is neutralized.

Also the kid was listed at 6'10 and looked a few inches taller than Diallo. I wouldn't be surprised if his true height is around 6'7.5".
The nike Hoops Summit game is more of a traditional type of game with much more defense played and Diallo had I think it was 12/8/3.
Skal come off the bench and had 21 or 23?? Was much more impressive than Diallo. I think Diallo would of been a better player here for us to clean up after Skal as he is going to be doubled down on a lot so the weak side is def going to be getting buckets off that.
If losing Diallo means gaining Murray I'm all for it as I really love Murray's game and is a better all around player on the court. Just makes everybody better and has the ability to score 30 points in a half if you give him the green light.

I think his future is a scorer that can slide over to the point.
It's gonna be interesting to see how Diallo's game translates to the nba with him being short for a center or PF
 
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What makes you think that? Neither have improved yet, what makes you think they improve this year.

Bragg is a 3 in Self's system. And I'm not impressed.

Who are the 3 top 20 picks you refer to? Diallo is the only one I see.


Grace I usually support your posts but this is the hypocritical attitude of most of our fan base.

KU's 5* players will not improve nor be better than our guys, even though their players have more experience and better stats.

But Poythress who has shown 1% of what we all hope he can, doesn't dribble and lost his jumpshot and Marcus Lee's 2 pts and 2 rebounds without any handles, jumpshot and gets lost on both offense and defense will both improve dramatically and carry us.

Not to mention their freshman are not as good as ours, when neither has played a minute of college ball????

We have questions at every single position and have no idea what the answers will be.

KU knows what they have at every position.

I will also be surprised if the 6'9 Bragg plays any 3, he is listed as a PF everywhere and Self never plays a big there. If any big slides out to the wing I would think it would be Ellis and his 39% three point shooting.

This team was top 10-20 last year and a two seed, losing only Oubre and a disappointing Alexander. I'm amazed at how only we get better with/without experience but the UNC's and Kansas' are what they were the previous year...
 
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Okay. So I take it you think they won't be that solid?

Probably not much better than they have been. I just think they are being overrated because so many other top programs lost a lot while they didn't. They did lose a key player though and added someone who is not likely to match his contributions. That's all. Hopefully it won't matter anyway.
 
Grace I usually support your posts but this is the hypocritical attitude of most of our fan base.

KU's 5* players will not improve nor be better than our guys, even though their players have more experience and better stats.

But Poythress who has shown 1% of what we all hope can, doesn't dribble and lost his jumpshot and Marcus Lee's 2 pts and 2 rebounds without any handles, jumpshot and gets lost on both offense and defense will both improve dramatically and carry us.

Not to mention their freshman are not as good as ours, when neither has played a minute of college ball????

We have questions at every single position and have no idea what the answers will be.

KY knows what they have at every position.

I will also be surprised if the 6'9 Bragg plays any 3, he is listed as a PF everywhere and self never plays a big there. If any big slides out to the wing I would think it would be Ellis and his 39% three point shooting.

This team was top 10-20 last year and a two seed, losing only Oubre and a disappointing Alexander. I'm amazed at how only we get better with/without experience but the UNC's and Kansas' are what they were the previous year...

It's refreshing to see realism not confused for negativity on here.
 
It's refreshing to see realism not confused for negativity on here.

I don't know if I would characterize "poythress has shown 1% of what we all hope he can" as realism. Also, Lee has only averaged 8 mins a game those 2 yrs. Hard to tell if he really is a 2 and 2 guy, or if he can give us a lot more. And his role is not to handle the ball, but the point about his defense is valid. If that doesn't improve a lot, then whatever gains he might have on offense will be neutralized.
 
Okay, maybe 10%

Hopefully he can play the 4 this year, limit his dribbling, stay in the paint, and we can see the best version of Poythress possible.

If he wasn't a Cat, we would blast him. That's why I liked Brian's statement about hypocrisy.
 
Okay. So I take it you think they won't be that solid?

I think UNC was pretty solid at the end of last year. They coul have beat Duke both times and looked to be the better team against Wisconsin for most of that tourney game until last 5-6 minutes. I think they could develop the mental fortitude to finish some of those type games with another year's experience. That said, they will probably choke and lose more than they should and flame out short of a Final Four.
 
Poythress is a beast and will show that once he moves back to the 4 spot. The bahamas gave a glimpse of what Poy is capable of. Cal has had to play him out of position these last couple years. Poythress will shine this year. Also if you give Lee more time, he might play like Lee from the Michigan game. Really love our three stud returnees.
 
Grace I usually support your posts but this is the hypocritical attitude of most of our fan base.

KU's 5* players will not improve nor be better than our guys, even though their players have more experience and better stats.

But Poythress who has shown 1% of what we all hope can, doesn't dribble and lost his jumpshot and Marcus Lee's 2 pts and 2 rebounds without any handles, jumpshot and gets lost on both offense and defense will both improve dramatically and carry us.

Not to mention their freshman are not as good as ours, when neither has played a minute of college ball????

We have questions at every single position and have no idea what the answers will be.

KY knows what they have at every position.

I will also be surprised if the 6'9 Bragg plays any 3, he is listed as a PF everywhere and self never plays a big there. If any big slides out to the wing I would think it would be Ellis and his 39% three point shooting.

This team was top 10-20 last year and a two seed, losing only Oubre and a disappointing Alexander. I'm amazed at how only we get better with/without experience but the UNC's and Kansas' are what they were the previous year...

There are things to agree with, but a lot to disagree with as well. First and foremost, you're selling Poythress incredibly short. Kentucky needed him to be "the guy" ONE (count it: one) year. His freshman year, he seen 26 mpg, and he ended up with a very solid 11 points, 6 rebounds per game. The next season, he's put behind Julius Randle (who we can all probably agree, was possibly one the best PF's in college that year), so his offensive numbers dipped, namely his 3 point percentage. Something to note there though, he RARELY took a 3 point shot. Averaged less than one per game. Last season, he played out of position, and still only played 20 mpg, and averaged around the same points, because he's able to make an impact with his physicality, his defense (which was best on the team before his injury), and his ability to pound the ball inside. Next year, I see him getting at least 28 mpg, and he should be able to get his 12 points and 7 rebounds, more importantly though, his lockdown defense, and his ability to make rundown plays on transition defense. Poythress may not bring staggering numbers offensively, but defensively, you may not find better in college basketball when he's healthy, as evidence of him holding his man to 12.8% FG% before his injury. Whether or not he hits threes, how little he takes them, will probably depend on the weather that day, and that's fine, because he's probably hitting 4 times as many shots as the guy he's guarding.

To argue with some of your other points though, last year, Kansas didn't come close to holding Kentucky's jock. We return a solid core of the players that contributed a lot to that pounding. Marcus Lee easily had the 2nd best performance in that game, behind only KAT. Poythress had a solid defensive showing, and despite his poor shooting night, he was able to knock down all 4 of his free throws, which came from his aggressive physicality. Ulis showed that he had no issues getting the offense going in that game.

You can say, based on head-to-head match-ups, Diallo is not as good as Skal. That will be the only notable match-up of the incoming class. The others will not play a moment matched up against one-another, so who really cares. I wouldn't mind if Diallo did end up being better than Briscoe, because Diallo will be too busy guarding the guy that's better than he is in that game. Briscoe will be somewhere else on the court most of the time. Bragg may not even see much time in the rotation. If Ellis did slide ot the 3, then Poythress will as well, and Lee will go in at the 4. Last year, Ellis had many, many problems against them specifically.

Everybody seen what they were ranked, but did they really deserve that ranking? No. They visibly struggled a lot last year, and it continued into the post-season. They lose one post guy with no offense, and gain another one. They get a 4 man who may end up spending most of his freshman year thinking of creative ways to keep Perry Ellis' seat warm. Clearly they'll gain experience, but what did they have to begin with that was so eye-popping?

I can see why some would consider ranking KU and UNC up there, but based on the way those teams played all year last year, plus how some players from both teams played 2 years ago (on both sides), you're not convincing me that either team will make the jump from 15-25 range (where both likely deserved to be) to 1-2 respectively. They may be ranked their pre-season, but I don't see it lasting.
 
To answer Tom's question about the thread getting derailed:

Our really terrible posters have some sort of agenda whether it be "farrrr Cal," "__________ player deserves more minutes," "_________ player deserves less minutes," etc.

These people are the squeaky wheels of the fanbase. They have to spout their worthless agendas and useless opinions because it makes them feel important. Some people love attention anyway they can find it. Most normal people like "positive" attention. Attention-seeking agenda posters will take attention any way they can get it, even if it's negative.

The poster everyone has been arguing with in this thread is legendary for his awful takes, and only appears when there's a chance to be negative. The only times the guy showed up last season were after close wins and our 1 loss.
 
There are things to agree with, but a lot to disagree with as well. First and foremost, you're selling Poythress incredibly short. Kentucky needed him to be "the guy" ONE (count it: one) year. His freshman year, he seen 26 mpg, and he ended up with a very solid 11 points, 6 rebounds per game. The next season, he's put behind Julius Randle (who we can all probably agree, was possibly one the best PF's in college that year), so his offensive numbers dipped, namely his 3 point percentage. Something to note there though, he RARELY took a 3 point shot. Averaged less than one per game. Last season, he played out of position, and still only played 20 mpg, and averaged around the same points, because he's able to make an impact with his physicality, his defense (which was best on the team before his injury), and his ability to pound the ball inside. Next year, I see him getting at least 28 mpg, and he should be able to get his 12 points and 7 rebounds, more importantly though, his lockdown defense, and his ability to make rundown plays on transition defense. Poythress may not bring staggering numbers offensively, but defensively, you may not find better in college basketball when he's healthy, as evidence of him holding his man to 12.8% FG% before his injury. Whether or not he hits threes, how little he takes them, will probably depend on the weather that day, and that's fine, because he's probably hitting 4 times as many shots as the guy he's guarding.

To argue with some of your other points though, last year, Kansas didn't come close to holding Kentucky's jock. We return a solid core of the players that contributed a lot to that pounding. Marcus Lee easily had the 2nd best performance in that game, behind only KAT. Poythress had a solid defensive showing, and despite his poor shooting night, he was able to knock down all 4 of his free throws, which came from his aggressive physicality. Ulis showed that he had no issues getting the offense going in that game.

You can say, based on head-to-head match-ups, Diallo is not as good as Skal. That will be the only notable match-up of the incoming class. The others will not play a moment matched up against one-another, so who really cares. I wouldn't mind if Diallo did end up being better than Briscoe, because Diallo will be too busy guarding the guy that's better than he is in that game. Briscoe will be somewhere else on the court most of the time. Bragg may not even see much time in the rotation. If Ellis did slide ot the 3, then Poythress will as well, and Lee will go in at the 4. Last year, Ellis had many, many problems against them specifically.

Everybody seen what they were ranked, but did they really deserve that ranking? No. They visibly struggled a lot last year, and it continued into the post-season. They lose one post guy with no offense, and gain another one. They get a 4 man who may end up spending most of his freshman year thinking of creative ways to keep Perry Ellis' seat warm. Clearly they'll gain experience, but what did they have to begin with that was so eye-popping?

I can see why some would consider ranking KU and UNC up there, but based on the way those teams played all year last year, plus how some players from both teams played 2 years ago (on both sides), you're not convincing me that either team will make the jump from 15-25 range (where both likely deserved to be) to 1-2 respectively. They may be ranked their pre-season, but I don't see it lasting.


As usual you make some very valid points.

I was addressing a poster saying we have the best bigs. We might, with a bunch of if's:

If Poy comes to play and is healthy.
If Lee has improved to more than a putback player and weakside shot blocker.
If Skal comes as advertised on both O and D.

KU has players (that will get better) with experience from last year.


The two things I cannot agree with:

"how some players from both teams played 2 years ago" seriously? 2 years ago? How did WCS and Lee play 2 years ago? That makes no sense.


"that either team will make the jump from 15-25 range (where both likely deserved to be) to 1-2 respectively. "
Again, seriously? These teams were ranked 12th and 17th last year, a 2 and 4 seed. UNC returns everyone except JP and KU only loses Oubre as Cliff was nonexistent.

UNC played Wisky and Duke well and beat UL and UVA at the end of the season.

Not giving these two teams top 10 credit with this year's field takes away some of your bball credibility, can you really name 15-25 better teams this year than KU or UNC? Or did I misread your statement?
 
Looks like it would be easier to make their own thread .


I mean how much more is there to say about Murray and Oregon? He cancelled his visit. End of story. You can only speculate so much on his reasoning. Threads get hijacked because often the original content of the thread runs its course and there is nothing left to discuss. Therefore, a new discussion is born and the thread continues, just on a different topic.
 
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I'm not worried about Kansas next year. I'll choose the wait and see route. I also don't care about who they're returning as they lost in the 2nd round to Wichita State. They lost Oubre and Alexander, and bring in a good recruiting class. We lose more players obviously, but we bring in the better class. If we land Murray, 1-5 we will have the more talented roster, and I damn sure like our chances under Cal come March more so than I do Bill Self's.
 
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