Why "the negative nancy's" are so sick of it.

[Cats192]

Hard to really get invested in a team that is this bad that we know is all going to bolt after the season.

There's three arms to this thing in my mind.

1. Regular season
2. Returning guys to build an experienced/successful team.
3. NCAA tournament

We've been sacrificing 1 and 2 in the name of 3 for most of the past decade. And that's great...so long as we actually succeed at 3. I don't have to have a Final 4 every year. No one does. It's not possible or realistic. But, the system is designed such that we sacrifice the rest in the name of March success. We keep tolerating bad starts and total new teams every year--in the name of March success.

If we got multiple returnees and we had teams with multiple juniors and seniors--I'd forgive the bad regular seasons or lack of Final 4's.

But instead we're failing at all 3 arms. The freshmen aren't the elite freshmen of old. Ben Simmons proved you can go to LSU and go #1. Anthony Edwards proved you can go to Georgia and go #1. We're getting less and less top recruits. And we have a bunch of freshmen that aren't ready/don't know how to play organized basketball.

So we suffer through the regular season. The whole time thinking that we'll be good come March. It happened in 2011 and 2014 when everyone counted us out. Cal will have these boys ready. We forget losing to Indiana in the 2nd round or K-State in the Sweet 16.

Then we won't even make a Final 4, let alone win it all. We'll lose all 5 starters. Maybe 1 or 2 bench guys come back. Other will transfer because they didn't get PT or feel they're being recruited over. We'll get another top recruiting class that doesn't know how to play organized basketball. And we'll start the process all over.

We keep recruiting these kids on our ability to get them to the NBA. We've become the NBA pipeline. And that's the only way kids will see us as long as Cal is here. That's his best recruiting pitch. The kids we're appealing to are kids that want to go pro as fast as they can. We recruit 4 stars hoping they'll stay. But, if Kentucky's recruiting them--that must mean Cal thinks they're good enough to go pro after a year. Why else would they come to Kentucky?

We're having success in zero of the three arms. The system is failing. Something has to change.

 

[BlueBomb]

I said this in another thread and I'll repeat here:

I'm sad to say that I don’t care right now, because I don’t even know the players that wear my team‘s jersey.

I used to accept that when we went to Final Fours. I figured that was the trade off. I didn’t like it then either but I accepted Cal’s business model because we were so successful.

Now, the model is broken. So I no longer support it. It's one thing to bring in four or five new players. It's another to bring in 10. Ridiculous.

 

[Runnin'Ramel]

Nailed it. Both of you.

 

[kyjeff1]

Question is, how long does Cal continue to stay with this model and how long does Barnfart and the boosters allow it ro continue?

 

[AlbanyWildCat]

Question is, how long does Cal continue to stay with this model and how long does Barnfart and the boosters allow it ro continue?

$70M-$90M to buy out Cal.

 

[kyjeff1]

$70M-$90M to buy out Cal.

60, not 90.
I'm not saying they would fire him, but if I'm a booster, I want the guy I'm paying big money to, to prioritize UK basketball and not the NBA draft.
This isn't hard to understand.

 

[kybassfan]

Hard to really get invested in a team that is this bad that we know is all going to bolt after the season.

There's three arms to this thing in my mind.

1. Regular season
2. Returning guys to build an experienced/successful team.
3. NCAA tournament

We've been sacrificing 1 and 2 in the name of 3 for most of the past decade. And that's great...so long as we actually succeed at 3. I don't have to have a Final 4 every year. No one does. It's not possible or realistic. But, the system is designed such that we sacrifice the rest in the name of March success. We keep tolerating bad starts and total new teams every year--in the name of March success.

If we got multiple returnees and we had teams with multiple juniors and seniors--I'd forgive the bad regular seasons or lack of Final 4's.

But instead we're failing at all 3 arms. The freshmen aren't the elite freshmen of old. Ben Simmons proved you can go to LSU and go #1. Anthony Edwards proved you can go to Georgia and go #1. We're getting less and less top recruits. And we have a bunch of freshmen that aren't ready/don't know how to play organized basketball.

So we suffer through the regular season. The whole time thinking that we'll be good come March. It happened in 2011 and 2014 when everyone counted us out. Cal will have these boys ready. We forget losing to Indiana in the 2nd round or K-State in the Sweet 16.

Then we won't even make a Final 4, let alone win it all. We'll lose all 5 starters. Maybe 1 or 2 bench guys come back. Other will transfer because they didn't get PT or feel they're being recruited over. We'll get another top recruiting class that doesn't know how to play organized basketball. And we'll start the process all over.

We keep recruiting these kids on our ability to get them to the NBA. We've become the NBA pipeline. And that's the only way kids will see us as long as Cal is here. That's his best recruiting pitch. The kids we're appealing to are kids that want to go pro as fast as they can. We recruit 4 stars hoping they'll stay. But, if Kentucky's recruiting them--that must mean Cal thinks they're good enough to go pro after a year. Why else would they come to Kentucky?

We're having success in zero of the three arms. The system is failing. Something has to change.

So the year is finished? Funny, I thought it had just started.

Quitters suck.

 

[CatCall]

Before the GT game I was hopeful and trying to be tolerant. One of my best friends and a HUGE UK fan and I were discussing our team. I said we'd be better if, ugh, er, ... you know "the returning guy" gets back. I couldn't ever remember the one returning player's (Brooks) name!

He said he doesn't even watch games now until after the new year. I agreed that it's probably the right strategy. Then I thought about it... We got together and watched EVERY weekend game just a few years ago, yelling and cheering like they could here us.

I have been a blue or die fan for many years. This is sad commentary, and I'm making it!

 

[Cats192]

So the year is finished? Funny, I thought it had just started.

Quitters suck.

Someone needs to tell the team it started, maybe they'll start trying.

 

[ZaytovenCat]

Question is, how long does Cal continue to stay with this model and how long does Barnfart and the boosters allow it ro continue?

Brainfart will sit with his finger up his ass for years before even considering doing something. He doesn’t have the balls to fire Cal. Multiple powerful people would have to force his hand.

 

[AlbanyWildCat]

60, not 90.
I'm not saying they would fire him, but if I'm a booster, I want the guy I'm paying big money to, to prioritize UK basketball and not the NBA draft.
This isn't hard to understand.

Thanks for the correct number, I will go with that.

OK, $60M...for the boosters paying that, how they gonna come up with that money and then pay someone else the same kind of money.

 

[Soupbean]

I made the comment to a buddy of mine that I wonder how much the city is regretting starting the Rupp reno project at this point. Kinda like the guys putting in the new commercial project across from Palomar in these economic uncertain times. There was already a malaise starting to set in on college basketball before this year with less and less interest even from folks like you and me - former die hards.

 

[kyjeff1]

Thanks for the correct number, I will go with that.

OK, $60M...for the boosters paying that, how they gonna come up with that money and then pay someone else the same kind of money.

Reread what I posted to you the first time. I'm not asking them to fire him, I'm saying they will eventually need to put pressure in him to make UK a priority instead of the NBA draft.

 

[sk73]

So far, this is the worst UK team I have seen in my years of following the Cats, after just 4 games in. The 12-13 team was better at least at this point of the season.. We have an abundance of problems, most notably, point guard. Spacing on offense is so bad that in some cases one player on the opposing team can often times guard 2 of our guys. I will not give up on this group even though it seems to be the popular thing to do here. I think they will improve dramatically and, while probably not being a real threat to win the NCAA, they may put enough good plays together to shock everyone, especially many on this board. The fire Cal and dissing the players movement going on at this point in the season is not something I will be a part of.

 

[docholiday51]

The quality of basketball we are playing right now is so poor that we can't even find a place to begin a reasonable discussion. The here and now of UK basketball is bleak ,more so than I can recall. These players don't know how to play the college game

Moving on to the big picture, the current state of Cal's program(yes it is Cal's program because this is not the UK program that was a pillar of college basketball) reflects what many here saw as the problems with OAD from the beginning. If you miss on recruit evaluation, landing the top targets or the rating system gets the 5*'s wrong the program will pay for it in a big way. In fairness Cal has dodged his fair share of bullets in the past but this time he did not.

If I eat crow so be it, but we can write this season off right now. The real question is how long will some sort of recovery take. Does it take one year, two years or more, will Cal be around to see it thru? Can Cal oversee a recovery?

If college basketball has some sort of a complete season we are in for a sub .500 year.

Feel free to bash, agree or ignore my thoughts. This is what I believe, I have no hidden agenda, ax to grind nor ulterior motive. I'm a UK fan thru thick and thin but I call it like I see it.

 

[KyFaninNC]

The quality of basketball we are playing right now is so poor that we can't even find a place to begin a reasonable discussion. The here and now of UK basketball is bleak ,more so than I can recall. These players don't know how to play the college game

Moving on to the big picture, the current state of Cal's program(yes it is Cal's program because this is not the UK program that was a pillar of college basketball) reflects what many here saw as the problems with OAD from the beginning. If you miss on recruit evaluation, landing the top targets or the rating system gets the 5*'s wrong the program will pay for it in a big way. In fairness Cal has dodged his fair share of bullets in the past but this time he did not.

If I eat crow so be it, but we can write this season off right now. The real question is how long will some sort of recovery take. Does it take one year, two years or more, will Cal be around to see it thru? Can Cal oversee a recovery?

If college basketball has some sort of a complete season we are in for a sub .500 year.

Feel free to bash, agree or ignore my thoughts. This is what I believe, I have no hidden agenda, ax to grind nor ulterior motive. I'm a UK fan thru thick and thin but I call it like I see it.

DUCK. Find a foxhole, quick. Incoming. LOL

 

[Cats192]

To people that point out other schools have had down years...

I’d gladly take some down years if we bring people back. A lot of these schools have down years and 2-3 years later have senior heavy teams.

We haven’t had an “up” year since 2015. We haven’t been a 1 seed in that long. And we keep losing our entire roster.

We’re in that weird in between zone. We’re not good enough to break through to a 1 seed or a final 4. We’re not bad enough that guys come back to build a better team.

 

[TNCatfanforever]

I said this in another thread and I'll repeat here:

I'm sad to say that I don’t care right now, because I don’t even know the players that wear my team‘s jersey.

I used to accept that when we went to Final Fours. I figured that was the trade off. I didn’t like it then either but I accepted Cal’s business model because we were so successful.

Now, the model is broken. So I no longer support it. It's one thing to bring in four or five new players. It's another to bring in 10. Ridiculous.

This summer I was trying to think about last year’s team and couldn’t recall on player. When they are here for G league for 7 months there is no connection between players and fans.

 

[UK90]

Question is, how long does Cal continue to stay with this model and how long does Barnfart and the boosters allow it ro continue?

“Barnfart and the boosters” can’t do a damn thing about it. Mitch surrendered that control when he gave Cal the lifetime extension.

Only way Cal goes now is if Cal chooses to leave.

 

[LineSkiCat14]

This summer I was trying to think about last year’s team and couldn’t recall on player. When they are here for G league for 7 months there is no connection between players and fans.

If you can't recall even LAST year's players.. that has nothing to do with roster turnover, and everything to do with possible brain damage or Alzheimer's.

Soon it will be "He's being a meanie"

No, I'm being serious. If you can't recall Hagans, IQ, Nick... or Herro KJ and PJ.. that's something you might want to get looked at. No reason not to remember even just the NAMES of a guy on last year's team.

 

[BlobUK]

I don't see how it's hard to know 10 guys. New or old. I remember all of Cal's teams. Sounds like an excuse to complain.

 

[Catman100]

Hard to really get invested in a team that is this bad that we know is all going to bolt after the season.

There's three arms to this thing in my mind.

1. Regular season
2. Returning guys to build an experienced/successful team.
3. NCAA tournament

We've been sacrificing 1 and 2 in the name of 3 for most of the past decade. And that's great...so long as we actually succeed at 3. I don't have to have a Final 4 every year. No one does. It's not possible or realistic. But, the system is designed such that we sacrifice the rest in the name of March success. We keep tolerating bad starts and total new teams every year--in the name of March success.

If we got multiple returnees and we had teams with multiple juniors and seniors--I'd forgive the bad regular seasons or lack of Final 4's.

But instead we're failing at all 3 arms. The freshmen aren't the elite freshmen of old. Ben Simmons proved you can go to LSU and go #1. Anthony Edwards proved you can go to Georgia and go #1. We're getting less and less top recruits. And we have a bunch of freshmen that aren't ready/don't know how to play organized basketball.

So we suffer through the regular season. The whole time thinking that we'll be good come March. It happened in 2011 and 2014 when everyone counted us out. Cal will have these boys ready. We forget losing to Indiana in the 2nd round or K-State in the Sweet 16.

Then we won't even make a Final 4, let alone win it all. We'll lose all 5 starters. Maybe 1 or 2 bench guys come back. Other will transfer because they didn't get PT or feel they're being recruited over. We'll get another top recruiting class that doesn't know how to play organized basketball. And we'll start the process all over.

We keep recruiting these kids on our ability to get them to the NBA. We've become the NBA pipeline. And that's the only way kids will see us as long as Cal is here. That's his best recruiting pitch. The kids we're appealing to are kids that want to go pro as fast as they can. We recruit 4 stars hoping they'll stay. But, if Kentucky's recruiting them--that must mean Cal thinks they're good enough to go pro after a year. Why else would they come to Kentucky?

We're having success in zero of the three arms. The system is failing. Something has to change.

If, according to another thread there are people in Cal's ear who visit Rupp Rafters, then I sure as hell hope they read this, because it is spot on......Late entry into 2020 post of the year.

 

[SmedMoley]

A common comparison used to be Cal and Nick Saban. Even the two fanbases mirror one another. The difference now seems to be that Saban is willing to adapt. And not play favorites among staff. If you don't pull your weight Saban will fire you in a heartbeat. Saban will settle for nothing but excellence.

If Saban slowly starting slipping in recruiting and getting upset by teams like UCLA or South Florida. With regularity. What would happen? If Saban started performing like Jim Harbaugh what would happen? Because Cal is starting to perform like Jim Boeheim.

 

[TNCatfanforever]

If you can't recall even LAST year's players.. that has nothing to do with roster turnover, and everything to do with possible brain damage or Alzheimer's.

Soon it will be "He's being a meanie"

No, I'm being serious. If you can't recall Hagans, IQ, Nick... or Herro KJ and PJ.. that's something you might want to get looked at. No reason not to remember even just the NAMES of a guy on last year's team.

Maybe it was the way the season ended with no post season play, but honestly when guys stayed 4 years and we had senior night it was much more meaningful that our developmental league

 

[kyjeff1]

“Barnfart and the boosters” can’t do a damn thing about it. Mitch surrendered that control when he gave Cal the lifetime extension.

Only way Cal goes now is if Cal chooses to leave.

Very true.

 

[ftp000]

While I admit, it is fun watching spoiled children melt down, a touch of reality needs to be inserted occasionally. UNC lost 19 games last year, and Roy returned this year, just like Cal will return next year, unless HE decides otherwise. The reason both of these things is true, is because the people in high places making important decisions, are not overreacting, entitled, spoiled children. That's how you achieve those lofty perches. You don't trash the whole program because of a bad season, let alone a bad start to a season. The overall record has to be considered. Some of y'all are stupider than cartoon characters. Get over yourselves, normal people aren't taking you serious.

 

[UKGrad93]

If you can't recall even LAST year's players.. that has nothing to do with roster turnover, and everything to do with possible brain damage or Alzheimer's.

Soon it will be "He's being a meanie"

No, I'm being serious. If you can't recall Hagans, IQ, Nick... or Herro KJ and PJ.. that's something you might want to get looked at. No reason not to remember even just the NAMES of a guy on last year's team.

Damn. Cal’s system is causing Alzheimer’s 😱.

 

[LineSkiCat14]

A common comparison used to be Cal and Nick Saban. Even the two fanbases mirror one another. The difference now seems to be that Saban is willing to adapt. And not play favorites among staff. If you don't pull your weight Saban will fire you in a heartbeat. Saban will settle for nothing but excellence.

If Saban slowly starting slipping in recruiting and getting upset by teams like UCLA or South Florida. With regularity. What would happen? If Saban started performing like Jim Harbaugh what would happen? Because Cal is starting to perform like Jim Boeheim.

I'd like to learn a bit more on how Saban has "adapted" and "changed" in the last decade. What did he change, specifically? Football is exactly the same as it was 15 years ago. There's no dramatic shift in recruiting, or some development leagues taking players. You're holding onto players for 3-4 years. What did Saban to do "adapt" and "change".

Or is it just that Football shouldn't be compared to basketball, and that great recruiting classes, like Kentucky's Duke's and Washingtons, don't always equal winning.

I think Saban is the GOAT college coach, but let's not pretend college football has same level of parity as basketball.

 

[LineSkiCat14]

Damn. Cal’s system is causing Alzheimer’s 😱.

Do I think there's a handful of posters here who are doing irreversible damage to their bodies because of stress over Kentucky basketball? Yes, yes I do.

 

[morgousky]

Now we are literally making excuses and willing to accept a losing season? At Uk?

This is what Cal has done to some of this fan base and it's sickening.

He could have a losing season over the next 3 years and a few of these soft ass fans would tell you to settle down, it's just a game.

 

[SmedMoley]

I'd like to learn a bit more on how Saban has "adapted" and "changed" in the last decade. What did he change, specifically? Football is exactly the same as it was 15 years ago. There's no dramatic shift in recruiting, or some development leagues taking players. You're holding onto players for 3-4 years. What did Saban to do "adapt" and "change".

Or is it just that Football shouldn't be compared to basketball, and that great recruiting classes, like Kentucky's Duke's and Washingtons, don't always equal winning.

I think Saban is the GOAT college coach, but let's not pretend college football has same level of parity as basketball.

No football isn't exactly the same as it was 15 years ago. Go read Saban's comments regarding his shift to focusing more on offense than defense. That should answer your question. If after you Google and read that, you still don't think football has changed, then your discussion needs to be with Saban and not me.

I do agree that football/basketball comparisons aren't the best. Nonetheless that has been the comparison.

 

[SmedMoley]

Do I think there's a handful of posters here who are doing irreversible damage to their bodies because of stress over Kentucky basketball? Yes, yes I do.

Are ulcers and heartburn irreversible?

 

[LineSkiCat14]

No football isn't exactly the same as it was 15 years ago. Go read Saban's comments regarding his shift to focusing more on offense than defense. That should answer your question. If after you Google and read that, you still don't think football has changed, then your discussion needs to be with Saban and not me.

I do agree that football/basketball comparisons aren't the best. Nonetheless that has been the comparison.

I truly don't know, hence why I asked. I'm a very casual college football fan. I just wasn't aware there was some seismic shift in Saban's ecosystem, that would be akin to going from 1AD recruiting to not at all.

As you said, we probably shouldn't be comparing the two. Faaaar too different in style. And I don't know why we are, to begin with. You can make the argument that not even Coach K can hold a candle to Saban, then (and maybe nuts to nuts, he can't). But is that more so because of Saban being that much better than K? Or is it just damn near impossible to rip off 3 or 4 titles a decade in sport like college basketball that still sees greater roster turnover, and has far more of a "hot and cold" style to it. Hard to see upsets in a sport where recruiting equates to athleticism, and that equates to a team overpowering another.

 

[LineSkiCat14]

Are ulcers and heartburn irreversible?

Ulcers can be pretty dangerous. I know some of that stuff you can't control. If stress was easy to turn off, people would.

I'd become pretty bummed if we went and had 3 more losing seasons, or even seasons that weren't an Elite 8. But I'm not going to have meltdowns on a forum over a coaches politics or saying irrational things like hoping he doesn't win another title out of spite.

Bad path to go down.

 

[kyjeff1]

Now we are literally making excuses and willing to accept a losing season? At Uk?

This is what Cal has done to some of this fan base and it's sickening.

He could have a losing season over the next 3 years and a few of these soft ass fans would tell you to settle down, it's just a game.

Apparently "THE GOLD STANDARD" is just a sales pitch and combining a $10,000,000.00 a year coach with a team full of NBA talent and missing out on 5 straight final fours, losing at home multiple times a year, losing to all but 1 power 5 team in the NCAAT in 5 years and starting off a season 1-3 is acceptable.

Freaking Roy Williams has 3 titles at UNC, he bought himself multiple losing seasons, especially when his most recent title still has a nice shine on it. He also makes half the money Cal makes.

Coach K has 5 national titles to his name, his last one is 3 years newer than Cal's and he's the one getting the real 5* recruits, so yeah, that fan base is pretty happy too. 5 national titles, yet he's making 2 million less than Cal.

If this is what 10 million bucks a year gets you, we've been robbed. Do you pumpers understand how much money 10 million dollars a year is? You should bring home more bacon than this guy has, that's for damn sure.

 

[morgousky]

Apparently "THE GOLD STANDARD" is just a sales pitch and combining a $10,000,000.00 a year coach with a team full of NBA talent and missing out on 5 straight final fours, losing at home multiple times a year, losing to all but 1 power 5 team in the NCAAT in 5 years and starting off a season 1-3 is acceptable.

Freaking Roy Williams has 3 titles at UNC, he bought himself multiple losing seasons, especially when his most recent title still has a nice shine on it. He also makes half the money Cal makes.

Coach K has 5 national titles to his name, his last one is 3 years newer than Cal's and he's the one getting the real 5* recruits, so yeah, that fan base is pretty happy too. 5 national titles, yet he's making 2 million less than Cal.

If this is what 10 million bucks a year gets you, we've been robbed. Do you pumpers understand how much money 10 million dollars a year is? You should bring home more bacon than this guy has, that's for damn sure.

Cal is making hundreds of millions of dollars at UK and the 4 pumpers feel the need to bleed out for him. It makes no sense.

But, like I say, good thing Cal is a morality man and spiritual leader now. A social worker like Cal would never rob poor kids across the state and hurt the university by holding Kentucky to such a large buyout. He's a great man, cares about future millionaires being millionaires. He will walk without robbing the institution.

 

[kyjeff1]

No football isn't exactly the same as it was 15 years ago. Go read Saban's comments regarding his shift to focusing more on offense than defense. That should answer your question. If after you Google and read that, you still don't think football has changed, then your discussion needs to be with Saban and not me.

I do agree that football/basketball comparisons aren't the best. Nonetheless that has been the comparison.

This version of Alabama is producing the best offensive numbers Saban has ever had at Bama and considering the guys he's had at qb and running back on the past, I would say that's a heck of an improvement.
The changes Saban has made are clearly working.
That's the real Gold Standard. That’s what it should look like.

 

[kyjeff1]

Cal is making hundreds of millions of dollars at UK and the 4 pumpers feel the need to bleed out for him. It makes no sense.

But, like I say, good thing Cal is a morality man and spiritual leader now. A social worker like Cal would never rob poor kids across the state and hurt the university by holding Kentucky to such a large buyout. He's a great man, cares about future millionaires being millionaires. He will walk without robbing the institution.

Oh he won't walk, he'll "RUUUUUUUUUNNNNN"

 

[jockstrap_mcgee]

I'd like to learn a bit more on how Saban has "adapted" and "changed" in the last decade. What did he change, specifically? Football is exactly the same as it was 15 years ago. There's no dramatic shift in recruiting, or some development leagues taking players. You're holding onto players for 3-4 years. What did Saban to do "adapt" and "change".

Or is it just that Football shouldn't be compared to basketball, and that great recruiting classes, like Kentucky's Duke's and Washingtons, don't always equal winning.

I think Saban is the GOAT college coach, but let's not pretend college football has same level of parity as basketball.

College football only feeds into the NFL. Saban is able to retain high quality players multiple years because of that. Cals problem is that his model is getting players into the nBA, thr g League and overseas leagues, too. It’s too hard to retain players when they can leave after one year, make basketball their sole concern and profession and make a living doing it somewhere

 

[TheBigBlueSpectacle]

I posed the same points a few days back and agree. The mutual benefit fans experience has been gone for 6 years and anyone expecting that not to result in a degradation of support and passion is being willfully stupid