Why do we need to focus on HS players anymore

[chasingwildcat]

That's the real key here. Lewis wasn't a top 5 player. If he was, ok, then you take him above anyone else. But aside from the Cooper flagg types, you almost always take a proven transfer who we know can play, and it's a guy who is coming into a established roster. Laland knew who was on this team when he chose to come hwre, didn't seem to bother him. Recruits choose to come to a school a year prior (or more) thinking their position is secured. They might not even have wanted to come to a school like UK, but they saw an opening that they maybe didn't at say UNC.

Give me a 16ppg sophomore or junior over someone completely unproven like Lewis, who we have no idea what he will give us in his first (and likely only) year.

If I could go back a year, I probably would’ve just focused on recruiting Jasper and Moreno, the two in-state guys, and tried to hold onto JQ’s commitment if possible.

Probably Lewis's top choice was always uconn or duke, he just came here for minutes

 

[jwphelps]

We can not even keep a high four star happy with guaranteed minutes, it really hurts

Only Duke can handle HS players and make a ton of 5 stars willing to sitting on the bench

We just need to focus on transfer portal to make success now.

It looks to me like UK is focused on the portal, I believe this is why Lewis bailed, he did not want to compete for minutes against a veteran.

 

[JonathanW]

What people often fail to understand in many aspects in life, whether it be political, economic, relationships, or sports, is that when you change one aspect, there is often a down-stream effect on other things.
And in college basketball, the 2 additions of NIL and the Transfer Portal starting basically at the same time and having a huge impact on each other, is probably the biggest change in CB history. Yes bigger (impact wise) than allowing FR to play, than the 3pt shot, than the shot clock, and I think maybe bigger than desegregation of teams (only because that one was a longer slow process; had it been instant like these 2 it may have been comparable).

So, now yes FR have a smaller impact than before, because 1) if you don't have the talent level you want, you can go out and rent if for next year, experienced talent; and 2) there is FAR LESS continuity than ever before, you aren't signing that FR for 4 years, you are signing him for 1 year, and hoping that gives you the advantage to have him in later years. So yes, FR have less value than they did before "NIL + Transfer Portal". That doesn't mean they don't have value, nor does it mean EVERY FR has less value than before. The best of the best FR, those who will be OAD, they hold the same value as before.

 

[wildcatknh]

Many of these guys do not win championship or even in FF

Going to a FF or winning a championship was not part of the take I was replying to.

 

[chasingwildcat]

What people often fail to understand in many aspects in life, whether it be political, economic, relationships, or sports, is that when you change one aspect, there is often a down-stream effect on other things.
And in college basketball, the 2 additions of NIL and the Transfer Portal starting basically at the same time and having a huge impact on each other, is probably the biggest change in CB history. Yes bigger (impact wise) than allowing FR to play, than the 3pt shot, than the shot clock, and I think maybe bigger than desegregation of teams (only because that one was a longer slow process; had it been instant like these 2 it may have been comparable).

So, now yes FR have a smaller impact than before, because 1) if you don't have the talent level you want, you can go out and rent if for next year, experienced talent; and 2) there is FAR LESS continuity than ever before, you aren't signing that FR for 4 years, you are signing him for 1 year, and hoping that gives you the advantage to have him in later years. So yes, FR have less value than they did before "NIL + Transfer Portal". That doesn't mean they don't have value, nor does it mean EVERY FR has less value than before. The best of the best FR, those who will be OAD, they hold the same value as before.

OAD players can not win big if they are the core of the team

They should be complimentary part at best

Duke has 3 top 10 picks (flagg is best freshman in about 10 years), and chokes in final 10 minutes

 

[yoshukai]

You still have to pursue top HS talent and sign them in Nov then what happens in the portal happens and you deal with it.
Oweh and JQ need to be replaced with the best HS players that we can sign.

Give me the portal guys . Unless it’s Cooper Flagg , freshman aren’t needed . I believe we will get Kinney thought. And that’s fine , but if we miss it means absolutely nothing.

 

[G-PIP]

What people often fail to understand in many aspects in life, whether it be political, economic, relationships, or sports, is that when you change one aspect, there is often a down-stream effect on other things.
And in college basketball, the 2 additions of NIL and the Transfer Portal starting basically at the same time and having a huge impact on each other, is probably the biggest change in CB history. Yes bigger (impact wise) than allowing FR to play, than the 3pt shot, than the shot clock, and I think maybe bigger than desegregation of teams (only because that one was a longer slow process; had it been instant like these 2 it may have been comparable).

So, now yes FR have a smaller impact than before, because 1) if you don't have the talent level you want, you can go out and rent if for next year, experienced talent; and 2) there is FAR LESS continuity than ever before, you aren't signing that FR for 4 years, you are signing him for 1 year, and hoping that gives you the advantage to have him in later years. So yes, FR have less value than they did before "NIL + Transfer Portal". That doesn't mean they don't have value, nor does it mean EVERY FR has less value than before. The best of the best FR, those who will be OAD, they hold the same value as before.

Good points, but I’m not sure I would agree with your last one. Instead, I agree with your point in regard to Freshmen generally in that I don’t think OAD high schoolers have the same value as before the NIL + wide open Portal free agency either. With the situation now a coach can possibly get an All-American/All-Conference player, and certainly a proven high-level player (often looking very poised to take the proverbial next step), from the portal to play immediately. In that case, it looks pretty clear that paying a lot of NIL to an OAD high school kid instead of the portal guy is usually a bad value proposition.

 

[chasingwildcat]

Give me the portal guys . Unless it’s Cooper Flagg , freshman aren’t needed . I believe we will get Kinney thought. And that’s fine , but if we miss it means absolutely nothing.

Do not know where we stand with Kinney

Hopefully we can get him, but dont know if he will accept pg2 in year 1 (assume lowe plays senior season here)

 

[yoshukai]

You just witnessed what you say is the way to go.
Sweet 16 and blown out.
And frankly, I think Coach Pope did a super job!

LOL, 3 of the final 4 teams did not have elite freshman.

 

[yoshukai]

Do not know where we stand with Kinney

Hopefully we can get him, but dont know if he will accept pg2 in year 1 (assume lowe plays senior season here)

Everything I’ve read is that we are in great shape with him . I was wondering how bringing Lowe (2 years) and Lewis would effect that though . Lewis leaving probably helps with Kinney. If we had brought in a senior it could have fallen perfectly.But Lowe might leave anyway so who knows.

 

[chasingwildcat]

I believe Pope has learnt valuable lessons from recruitment of Wilson and Lewis

 

[TOMCATS1990]

I think players should be allowed to transfer freely the first time, but the second transfer should come with a mandatory sit-out year, unless there are special circumstances. Transferring to four different schools in four years is just ridiculous.

I agree but scholarships are year to year to so that needs to be changed..

 

[chasingwildcat]

I agree but scholarships are year to year to so that needs to be changed..

If college is more like pro basketball

Should have some CBA rules...

 

[Padsfs07]

Do not know where we stand with Kinney

Hopefully we can get him, but dont know if he will accept pg2 in year 1 (assume lowe plays senior season here)

He did visit for BB Madness with Weis Johnson and Bender (from Ky)

 

[JonathanW]

OAD players can not win big if they are the core of the team

They should be complimentary part at best

Duke has 3 top 10 picks (flagg is best freshman in about 10 years), and chokes in final 10 minutes

It's not an all-or-nothing issue.
You can certainly win with 1 or 2 OAD FR as part of your core. (I said OAD FR, not to be redundant, but because now many transfers are OAD for your school)

But I agree you don't want all or most of your core group as OAD players. You put Flagg on any other top 10 team this year (or UK), and they probably win it all. You add Knueppel to some of the top 10 teams and they win it all.
Duke/their-coach made a MAJOR mistake having the veteran players take a back seat to the FR (especially Flagg). Your best players can be FR, but you need the leadership to come from guys who have the experience, to lead the team. James and Proctor should have been leading that Duke team, even if Flagg led them in every stat. But at the end of close games, they mistakenly relied entirely on one guy (a FR) to carry them. In a couple of those losses everyone else acted like the ball was a hot potato when they touched it in the final 1-2 minutes, "got to get it back to Cooper asap". Scheyer should have setup plays for other guys, at least sometimes. If nothing else, teams knew who to focus on since Scheyer had such tunnel-vision.

 

[JonathanW]

LOL, 3 of the final 4 teams did not have elite freshman.

Sample size of 1 yr. Wow.

I'm not saying you have to have elite FR. No, you don't.
But having 1 or 2 is not a bad thing. Just don't make your team completely dependent on them (like Scheyer did)!
Although injuries derailed that team, I would say have the 1-2 incorporated into your team chemistry like Washington was on our 21-22 team.

 

[chasingwildcat]

It's not an all-or-nothing issue.
You can certainly win with 1 or 2 OAD FR as part of your core. (I said OAD FR, not to be redundant, but because now many transfers are OAD for your school)

But I agree you don't want all or most of your core group as OAD players. You put Flagg on any other top 10 team this year (or UK), and they probably win it all. You add Knueppel to some of the top 10 teams and they win it all.
Duke/their-coach made a MAJOR mistake having the veteran players take a back seat to the FR (especially Flagg). Your best players can be FR, but you need the leadership to come from guys who have the experience, to lead the team. James and Proctor should have been leading that Duke team, even if Flagg led them in every stat. But at the end of close games, they mistakenly relied entirely on one guy (a FR) to carry them. In a couple of those losses everyone else acted like the ball was a hot potato when they touched it in the final 1-2 minutes, "got to get it back to Cooper asap". Scheyer should have setup plays for other guys, at least sometimes. If nothing else, teams knew who to focus on since Scheyer had such tunnel-vision.

There are probably no more than 3 freshmen in each class that can be kon good (do not say draft stock, but could be core player to potential deep run in tournament)

It is hard to recruit this kind of kids

I think these kids will mostly go to Duke as of now...

 

[bballcat4]

It’s easy to blame everything on Cal, but I’m blaming current state of current HS player’s thinking on Cal. “I just need to play one good year of college then jump to NBA.” This was true for awhile and we slurped up every potential NBA recruit.

Then, college bball changed. It’s very difficult to win championships with very young but talented players. Problem is, the young players leave and the college team is back at “rinse and repeat. Top young players want PT and let’s be honest, there was going to be a lot of player vying for PG minutes. (Good for UK.)

Look at the top guards at Tx and Okla. These players are gone and in the draft, but their teams struggled. NBA may begin taking more older players like Clayton earlier in the draft.

Fans need to realize a good transfer point guard isn’t coming to UK to sit the bench.

I say recruit a couple top hs players, then you have to be willing to ride with them. Majority of rotation needs to be veteran players. I like our ages right now and say use scholly on stretch 4 that can shoot, then let the season begin!

 

[chasingwildcat]

Sample size of 1 yr. Wow.

I'm not saying you have to have elite FR. No, you don't.
But having 1 or 2 is not a bad thing. Just don't make your team completely dependent on them (like Scheyer did)!
Although injuries derailed that team, I would say have the 1-2 incorporated into your team chemistry like Washington was on our 21-22 team.

Low five stars or high 4 stars should not be considered anymore

Should only recruit guys who are good enough to play meaningful minutes in day 1 or lower ranked development guys

 

[bucsrule8872]

There must be a balance.

To me, the most important thing is retention. Got to keep guys around, whether they come in from the portal or HS. Pope seems to have checked that box with Oweh, Garrison, Chandler, Noah, and Perry expected back.

Then you need some portal guys, preferably some with more than one year of eligibility left, so they can be here multiple years. Pope checks that box with Lowe (2 years left), Dioubate(2 years left), Williams (3 years left), and Quaintance (3 years left- though expected to leave after one).

Then you need some HS kids. We got Johnson and Moreno. Johnson is probably OAD, but hopefully Moreno returns for at least one more year. Both are elite talents. Pope checks the box there.

The only thing I would look to add, if I were Pope, would be adding 1 or 2 Freshmen developmental players in this class. But he did that last season with Perry and Noah, so I don’t blame him for not signing another.

Overall, it’s a pretty balanced roster shaping up for next season.

 

[AzubuikeandFitch]

I saw this coming, and warned about it. I felt like Lewis was under rated. I've been saying they will not come to play 15 min a game. But for some reason so many on here have the idea that top players will be satisfied with 15-20 minutes. But they aren't, you want to know why? Cause they want to develop and sign a NBA contract.

As a coach you have to pull from H&S and portal to have success. I don't think lowe scared him off as much as they plan on signing another shooter . If he could've played 10-15 min backup to point, and 10-15 min backup to SG he probably stays.

Ya might wanna be careful or JJ will be gone!

JJ is 6'6, can play various positions, from KY, and isn't scared of competition.

 

[SkyPrince1]

It's not an all-or-nothing issue.
You can certainly win with 1 or 2 OAD FR as part of your core. (I said OAD FR, not to be redundant, but because now many transfers are OAD for your school)

But I agree you don't want all or most of your core group as OAD players. You put Flagg on any other top 10 team this year (or UK), and they probably win it all. You add Knueppel to some of the top 10 teams and they win it all.
Duke/their-coach made a MAJOR mistake having the veteran players take a back seat to the FR (especially Flagg). Your best players can be FR, but you need the leadership to come from guys who have the experience, to lead the team. James and Proctor should have been leading that Duke team, even if Flagg led them in every stat. But at the end of close games, they mistakenly relied entirely on one guy (a FR) to carry them. In a couple of those losses everyone else acted like the ball was a hot potato when they touched it in the final 1-2 minutes, "got to get it back to Cooper asap". Scheyer should have setup plays for other guys, at least sometimes. If nothing else, teams knew who to focus on since Scheyer had such tunnel-vision.

Proctor and James are the ones that didn't come through against Houston.
Gillis was also a disappointment.
That team had to run through the freshman and I really don't think they choked at all.
They went further than Zion and RJ and just as far as Banchero and Keels.

 

[uky8unc5]

The new roster is already noticeably more balanced.

I hope you are correct. But I have my doubts.
Our roster was loaded with 2 per position (pre-injury).

 

[chasingwildcat]

I hope you are correct. But I have my doubts.
Our roster was loaded with 2 per position (pre-injury).

I mean we already have more balanced combination of skill and athleticism

We only have skill in last season

 

[TM2013]

LOL, 3 of the final 4 teams did not have elite freshman.

And Tennessee had zero impact freshman also

 

[G-PIP]

JJ is 6'6, can play various positions, from KY, and isn't scared of competition.

Jasper Johnson is 6'6"? Maybe 6'4" (more likely 6'3"). If you were referring to someone else, then I misunderstood what you meant by JJ.

 

[W1LDCAT22]

If I am Pope, I just learn Todd Golden, just recruit some (not high ranking) guys who are athletic or have potential and more importantly are willing to come to the program (not just pro prospect) to develop his games (even if he may be on the bench in year1 and/or year 2)

But doing what Golden did is so difficult and rare. Keeping players for multiple years and developing them in-house is very hard to do in this age of CBB. All of the pieces fit into place so perfectly for this to happen with Florida. Your best bet is to just recruit the best possible highschool and portal kids you can, with a good blend of each, and go at it this way. Winning a championship with a team like Golden had doesn't happen that often, if at all.

 

[Kyhoward]

You still have to pursue top HS talent and sign them in Nov then what happens in the portal happens and you deal with it.
Oweh and JQ need to be replaced with the best HS players that we can sign.

I would say best players not best high school players. Portal guys have proven or not proven they can play ball at a collegiate level. Not against high school recruits but feel the majority of the players brought in should be from the portal and have more than 1 year of eligibility remaining preferably.

 

[JS1957]

You know what your getting in the portal

 

[jeffky]

We can not even keep a high four star happy with guaranteed minutes, it really hurts

Only Duke can handle HS players and make a ton of 5 stars willing to sitting on the bench

We just need to focus on transfer portal to make success now.

 

[yabbadabbadoo]

It's still about having the best players, it's just that freshmen aren't the best players - they're the best prospects.

Well said
This is truth

 

[susan2361]

Great post we get too hung up on stars around here thanks to Cal. Its not about having the best players its about having the right players and the system that fits them.

Exactly. I stopped looking at the number of stars for each player a while ago, around the time of the Brandon Boston thing. Maybe even before that.

 

[Blue_2_the_bone]

I wonder if in the future we’ll start seeing guys wait to commit until the portal starts playing out. Would make more sense for them and the schools.

 

[LmdCat]

I saw this coming, and warned about it. I felt like Lewis was under rated. I've been saying they will not come to play 15 min a game. But for some reason so many on here have the idea that top players will be satisfied with 15-20 minutes. But they aren't, you want to know why? Cause they want to develop and sign a NBA contract.

As a coach you have to pull from H&S and portal to have success. I don't think lowe scared him off as much as they plan on signing another shooter . If he could've played 10-15 min backup to point, and 10-15 min backup to SG he probably stays.

Ya might wanna be careful or JJ will be gone!

You would love for JJ to leave so you can have something else to complain about. It doesn't appear Pope is nearly as worried about it as you are. I wonder why? It appears that Pope has a plan for how he wants to build his team and he isn't allowing players and whiny fans dictate how he does it.

 

[Cat in ga]

There is only so much NIL money. Plus, you hope to have a top Freshman or two that can develop through the season.

But, I do pretty much agree with the premise that top transfer players are your better bet if the right fit. Guys like Anthony Davis, or Flagg, or similar are a rarity plus as Freshman they may still have some folding under pressure. Not to be a negative fan but Davis was pretty bad on offense in the championship game unable to hit shots he otherwise had no problem with. Flagg fumbled at the end of our game and against Houston. So, there is a good point to this thread.

Davis dominated that game without having to score. That’s rare. He was amazing. I’d still rather have a guy like Mashburn for three years over a one year guy.

 

[Cat in ga]

I wonder if in the future we’ll start seeing guys wait to commit until the portal starts playing out. Would make more sense for them and the schools.

Yeah absolutely. I’d also like to see them have to commit for at least two or three year contracts with so much NIL guaranteed. Only exception being they enter the draft and either stay in or have to come back to said school. I’m not big on this switching schools every year. Kinda kills the team part

 

[Cat in ga]

Proctor and James are the ones that didn't come through against Houston.
Gillis was also a disappointment.
That team had to run through the freshman and I really don't think they choked at all.
They went further than Zion and RJ and just as far as Banchero and Keels.

The coach certainly choked. Everyone in the country knew who was taking that shot. If he would have used Cooper as a decoy and had him pass to a wide open Proctor or Knuepple Duke wins. I hope he coaches Duke for a long time.

 

[jwphelps]

What people often fail to understand in many aspects in life, whether it be political, economic, relationships, or sports, is that when you change one aspect, there is often a down-stream effect on other things.
And in college basketball, the 2 additions of NIL and the Transfer Portal starting basically at the same time and having a huge impact on each other, is probably the biggest change in CB history. Yes bigger (impact wise) than allowing FR to play, than the 3pt shot, than the shot clock, and I think maybe bigger than desegregation of teams (only because that one was a longer slow process; had it been instant like these 2 it may have been comparable).

So, now yes FR have a smaller impact than before, because 1) if you don't have the talent level you want, you can go out and rent if for next year, experienced talent; and 2) there is FAR LESS continuity than ever before, you aren't signing that FR for 4 years, you are signing him for 1 year, and hoping that gives you the advantage to have him in later years. So yes, FR have less value than they did before "NIL + Transfer Portal". That doesn't mean they don't have value, nor does it mean EVERY FR has less value than before. The best of the best FR, those who will be OAD, they hold the same value as before.

I would say you need a few freshmen every year, but they type that will stay and grow with the program I would stay away from the over privileged one and done unless you get that once in a life time generational player. We already have seen a 4 star not want to come and compete for playing time. Tired of these kids who think they deserve something, prove it on the court.

 

[TFCats11]

I never understood players who think they have NBA aspirations, but are afraid of competing for minutes in college!

Plus now, they are all getting paid!😂