Before I continue, let me say that I love Coach Cal, the players every year and UK as a whole. I have my entire life and I always will- but with that being said, Cal's model while successful and successful for kids is growing tiresome for me as a fan and I don't just say that because of last night. I say that because every year we have 4-7 kids in and 4-7 out, there is no continuity, hard to grow attached to any player and honestly we aren't a very good team until late in the year. Year after year we hear the same things, because they are true- it's hard to win with a Freshman dominated team. The games aren't very good until late in the year, you know we are going to look ugly and struggle with opponents we shouldn't for a while and it just takes away from the experience of the fan for me. I know overall it has led to success, but it's frustrating to watch at times along the way, it boring, it's frustrating and it's like watching a live experiment at times. I wish we could find a balance, because I miss the days were we are dominant from early in the season and where we laid the hammer down on teams that we should.
Unpopular Opinion
- Thread starter KYWC36
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I kinda take a different perspective on it tho.
I look at it like it's one long season. While they might be frustrating to watch in Nov/Dec, there's a good bet this team will be playing good basketball come Feb/March.
In ways I kinda like watching the players develop. I mean last year seeing PJ turn into the player he's become was just great IMO. Or in 2011 when we found out Kanter couldn't play and Josh Harrelson stepped it up.
The thing about being dominant early in seasons........those days are over no matter who is coaching and who sticks around. The talented players will always leave after 1-2 years........and we could go the other route and just get 4 year guys.......but I don't think they'd be very good to the point of us being dominant.
As far as attachment to players go i dunno.......I'm always going to remember John Wall or Anthony Davis before I do a perry stevenson
I look at it like it's one long season. While they might be frustrating to watch in Nov/Dec, there's a good bet this team will be playing good basketball come Feb/March.
In ways I kinda like watching the players develop. I mean last year seeing PJ turn into the player he's become was just great IMO. Or in 2011 when we found out Kanter couldn't play and Josh Harrelson stepped it up.
The thing about being dominant early in seasons........those days are over no matter who is coaching and who sticks around. The talented players will always leave after 1-2 years........and we could go the other route and just get 4 year guys.......but I don't think they'd be very good to the point of us being dominant.
As far as attachment to players go i dunno.......I'm always going to remember John Wall or Anthony Davis before I do a perry stevenson
I think one of the things that is frustrating to most fans is the lack of movement and lack of well basically anything on the offensive end. We hardly run any sets and the ones we do are so simple that a elementary coach could figure them out.
There is a reason attendance is down. The fans have learned to stay away during the learning curve. It is ugly basketball and UK fans just don't enjoy watching a kid auditioning for the NBA for one season any more.
Why is it down for everyone else in nearly every sport?
No I agree the model has changed, but I disagree about teams being dominant early even in this age. The top teams do, every year we get ranked on what they think we will be and if we are being honest, we aren't that good for a long time. I loved Wall and Cousins too and why? Because they came right after a down period and they DOMINATED from the start- sure they had a couple head scratchers but that team was very good early and exciting. The teams now are not, sorry I don't mean that as a negative comment, it's just reality. We look really BAD at times and it has became the norm.
In basketball for a lot of the same reasons across the board, but also it is become super expensive for a family or even individuals to go to games now. Rising prices for tickets, parking, concessions, etc is becoming ridiculous. That has been my problem for a while with UK, we cater the elite in the lower seats and watch them sleep during the game because we need their money, and we push the students and the rowdy fans in a corner.... and it used to be in the upper arena. I think Duke has that model right, their gym may be smaller, but they ROCK IT every night. Most games at Rupp are boring and that is coming from a life long fan who has been to many, many games. Unless it's an elite team, its a snooze fest
Even that 2010 team wasn't dominant early tho..........it took a buzzer beater to beat Miami (OH) in Rupp........it took OT to beat Stanford. We had a 2 point victory against UNC and a 3 point victory over Uconn.
I really think the only dominant teams from the get go was 2012 and 2015 if we are being honest here.
Who is dominant this season? I could really only think of Ohio St off the top of the head and they even went to Minn and lost to an average Big Ten team.
These threads only seem to pop up after losses.
And then we win games and threads pop up about us maybe being the best team in the NCAA when healthy.
And the truth of the matter is we are in neither category right now. But by the end of the season I think we'll be closer to the top.
Cost and Flatscreens are the main reason. Attendance has been declining steadily for years at other venues in sports but it hasn't hit Rupp until just recently. And it has been a drastic change that can't be accounted for by money and tv's alone. The fans don't like the opponents being played or the product on the floor they are watching imo.
Oh well, we will be better by March and if we're not, it will be an entirely new group of players next year.... so who cares anyway? Right?
I wouldn't say who cares. That's an unfair dismissal of the context that's important to these discussions. But yes, we should be much better by March, and we are bringing in several talented players for next season. So if you're unhappy now, you get another chance next year.
UK USED to play good basketball in November December and January too, not just February and March.
We also made it to the Sweet 16 just fine too. The difference was the entire season was enjoyable and watchable. Not just a month or two.
We also made it to the Sweet 16 just fine too. The difference was the entire season was enjoyable and watchable. Not just a month or two.
Oh watching our team struggle and look a little rough thru dec / Jan is expected and tolerated by most people - me included . But we have now played 13 games , or 12 ? We have lost twice to double digit underdogs . Twice we have not only “ struggled “ but looked unprepared and simply not ready to play or show any passion . I was close enough to hear and see many things last night . Almost had court side seats , 4rows up . The emotions of their team versus ours was stark . They were focused , fired up and ready from the tip , we looked like a team going thru a walk thru . That isn’t youth or inexperience or a sign of a team that will flip the switch in March . This team screams second game exit to a lower seed in the dance .
And the same elephant in the room is getting noticed more and more . I’ve seen screaming at this from the roof tops . Our offense sucks ass . Why do relatively dominant scorers come here and struggle ? Even great shooters leave us scratching our heads - why can’t we score ? Because we don’t get consistently good looks . Last night was a prime example. They had great spacing and ball movement and got great shots almost all night long . We send a player crashing into the lane hoping to get fouled or finish . If the guard does dish we really don’t have great finishers to complete the drive ending in a score . We have no cohesion what so ever . None . We are 13games in and I dint think we have a clue what shots we really want to take . All this in on Cal. Hire a damn offensive minded guy and let him run things . In the end he would still get the credit , we , the fans , just want to win . We’d it care who gets the credit .
I’ll end with this , if Evansville and Utah basically handled us , and I mean really controlled us , how are we going to do on the road in theSEC ? ThankFully the league is down or we might have ten losses going into the tourney . You can’t fix an offense this bad in 30 days . But why are we near January and still look like a team in Oct ? Hell even our D is bad . We got manhandled last night . We were never in it until the last 5 minutes . No tempo , No urgency , I didn’t witness any fire . We were a 11 Point favorite and never had the lead . Not once , just like Evansville , we were controlled for 90% of the game . Just shouldn’t be . More than likely we lose sat . Tosu is far far superior to Utah .
Just a sad sad effort last night . Larry K coached his ass off , you could tell he wanted this W bad , I could hear him ripping Tony’s ass the first minute of the game . He took his group of 2 stars and beat our 5 star ass . Just embarrassing really . They have 1 player who would get minutes for us but still controlled us . Unreal .
And the same elephant in the room is getting noticed more and more . I’ve seen screaming at this from the roof tops . Our offense sucks ass . Why do relatively dominant scorers come here and struggle ? Even great shooters leave us scratching our heads - why can’t we score ? Because we don’t get consistently good looks . Last night was a prime example. They had great spacing and ball movement and got great shots almost all night long . We send a player crashing into the lane hoping to get fouled or finish . If the guard does dish we really don’t have great finishers to complete the drive ending in a score . We have no cohesion what so ever . None . We are 13games in and I dint think we have a clue what shots we really want to take . All this in on Cal. Hire a damn offensive minded guy and let him run things . In the end he would still get the credit , we , the fans , just want to win . We’d it care who gets the credit .
I’ll end with this , if Evansville and Utah basically handled us , and I mean really controlled us , how are we going to do on the road in theSEC ? ThankFully the league is down or we might have ten losses going into the tourney . You can’t fix an offense this bad in 30 days . But why are we near January and still look like a team in Oct ? Hell even our D is bad . We got manhandled last night . We were never in it until the last 5 minutes . No tempo , No urgency , I didn’t witness any fire . We were a 11 Point favorite and never had the lead . Not once , just like Evansville , we were controlled for 90% of the game . Just shouldn’t be . More than likely we lose sat . Tosu is far far superior to Utah .
Just a sad sad effort last night . Larry K coached his ass off , you could tell he wanted this W bad , I could hear him ripping Tony’s ass the first minute of the game . He took his group of 2 stars and beat our 5 star ass . Just embarrassing really . They have 1 player who would get minutes for us but still controlled us . Unreal .
While it's no doubt we do struggle early it isn't as if we don't have some games where we play well. I mean we did knock off Michigan St in November. We have had Champions Classic games that we've won, we've handled UL since Cal's been here.
So we do struggle and get better as the year goes on but it's not as if we don't have some good games in Nov Dec against quality competition as well.
Look at what you just wrote though, the Miami OH game being the one exception- Stanford, UNC and UCONN were all good programs that year- they lost what 2 games that season? UNC and UCONN is not Evansville. There is no comparison to that team and any of the teams we see now, sorry, none. And I get it, as I said I know the landscape has changed, but I think you are taking the word dominant to literal. My point is, UK should never lose to teams like Evansville and they shouldn't routinely struggle with teams they are favored to beat by 12- like UTAH. That is the norm now, the 2010 team had 3 or 4 games they struggled in- the teams now only have 4-5 games they win easily. They are different, I don't mean 39-1 win by 20 dominant, I mean routinely expected to beat the teams you are supposed to beat. We still win the vast majority don't get me wrong, but we sweat a lot of them out now.
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But if anything it should make those wins even more meaningful.
It's harder to beat those teams on neutral courts than at Rupp.
The neutral site is crap for the fans. Quit while you're ahead, youre not going to change my opinion on this.
Yeah, there is a ton of entertainment options these days. At home we can watch anything we want with the touch of a button. We can eat literally any cuisine and have any beverage we want within 10 miles of our home. The array of things outside the home to do in or near Kentucky 20 years ago was a movie theater and UK sports. Now there are dozens of other options. It's just got to be a good product to keep attention these days and UK basketball this year from what I have seen isn't a very good product.
Evansville happens. I mean Duke losses to Stephen F Austin.
I don't see this being the norm tho. Even if we just look at this specific year. 6 of our 8 wins have been by double digits and 1 that wasn't was against Michigan St.
If the Miami OH can be seen as an exception, why can't Evansville? And Standford that season finished 106th in Kenpom. Utah is currently 100th. It's very similar.
I just don't see how this is considered the norm.
Evansville was one game.
Since people like to say we haven't been the same since 15 here's our losses and the teams ranking:
2020 = 207th and 100th
2019 = 4th, 60th, 64th, 19th, 10th, 10th and 11th
2018 = 9th, 56th, 13th, 80th, 22nd, 40th, 13th, 29th, 23rd, 22nd and 42nd
2017 = 16th, 9th, 57th, 6th, 5th, 3rd
2016 = 69th, 76th, 81st, 189th, 3rd, 103rd, 18th, 25th, 11th
Evansville was just an aberration, not the norm. Even in these later Cal years, we don't lose to teams ranked in the 200 or even 100s for the most part.
You just pointed out that we used to play good basketball in Nov and Dec and I was saying that we still have in some games.
I'm sorry, i didn't realized that excluded games being played outside of Rupp Arena.
You're right but , I do think the college basketball sport more than any other is not what it used to be .
The pain isn't that kids come and go after one year - it's that the WRONG kids GO each year. We should have 1-2 of the best guys on the team even thinking about going. The rest should stay. The mentality that's been created at UK is that you're a failure if you don't go 1-and-done, and that, to me, is the one thing that drives down my UK basketball interest. Losses don't hurt for a week like they used to, because the attachment I used to get with a team is no longer there. I find myself watching each game thinking more about how stupid it would be if so-and-so actually put their name in for the draft than I do about the game itself.
When a player like Whitney has one "wow" play mixed with 20 "stupid" plays, I am trained to think "well, that's probably enough 'potential', he's gone", and I freaking hate it.
When a player like Whitney has one "wow" play mixed with 20 "stupid" plays, I am trained to think "well, that's probably enough 'potential', he's gone", and I freaking hate it.
No, youre just arguing two different points and trying to conflate things.
Moving on.
That team needed a buzzer beater from John Wall to beat a bad Miami team in Rupp Arena. It also lost to a bad South Carolina team that had one hot three point shooter. They struggled against zone defenses all year and totally folded against WVU's in the Elite Eight, also allowed pipsqueak PG Joe Mazulla to score at will on them and gave up 8 threes in the first half. And that was in late March!
This is not a new phenomenon at UK under Cal. His only team that really dominated from the jump was 2014-15.
I got an honest question for you kybassman . You made a comment the other day when someone mentioned Cal having the team do wall sits with 30 lbs . Were you serious , cause I've done wall sits and we sure didn't look like we had our legs last night , at least to me .
I think their point is that our attendance will be up after Christmas but for everyone else that same low attendance persist through the entire season.
Dude, they kill your legs. I agree. I hated those damn things. Not as bad as hack squats, but bad.
We haven’t had legs since Michigan St.
Cal has placed too much emphasis on athleticism as opposed to basketball skill and intelligence. That, coupled with his opposition to running anything remotely resembling an offense has put us in the position we are in. Cal is too stubborn to adjust and adapt. We need to sacrifice a little athleticism for some guys who actually know how to play and can shoot and dribble. Our best teams have had a good balance of the two.
No, it's not "reality," it's your opinion. Excitement is in the eye of the beholder. It's pure opinion. You've soured on the system. That's it. That's the only "fact" here.
OP, don't need to apologize for sharing your take, that's what this place is for and why I enjoy interacting with people. We don't always agree, nor do we have to, it's talking basketball and I learn and see things differently from people who have different takes. It's cool to hear difference of opinion.
My own take is Cal's like majority of CBB coaches who for some reason view offense as a necessity and not the way to win. It's what wins. Period. Basketball is the lone sport where shot making and offense always will win over defense. You can accomplish it in different ways--but the method of approach Cal uses doesn't speak to efficient basketball early on and sometimes not for majority of the season. Offense is what fans enjoy seeing and more importantly urgency with offense--like pushing the ball into the frontcourt and looking for quick opportunities. Look at last night's game--Utah played that way until they were up 17 and realized they could win the game--then they took the air out and blew the entire lead. Why? They decided that scoring didn't matter.
Not sure what the NCAA Rules committee can do-they've lowered the clock, had the 3pt line closer/further back to increase more movement, and we still see control freak coaches in CBB want to take air out. If not for fouls/FT's most of the games in CBB would be played in the mid to high 50's.
Always tell people who get down about "today's players"--go watch them in HS and AAU. Then watch when they get to the NBA. Now why is the middle man who gets them providing the worst version of them/the sport? All the coaches fall in love with players at AAU seeing them flourish in an open style of game against elite talent. Then they play same way in NBA with best players in world. Get to college and it's a muck fest where scoring/offensive freedom is not taught--it has to be coached to play faster and so many think that's just natural. You've got to encourage guys to play and not put a label on their play. I despise when Cal talks of the 3pt attempts limit. Why? Just play. Some games you take more/make more, some you won't/don't but you don't need to put anything in a player's head--just let them play and focus on the feel for that particular game. The coaching takes place at practices and offseason but during a game a coach's #1 job is to understand momentum and judge the game's flow.
Unfortunately for the fans/viewers, Cal is like majority of guys and had to put his stamp on things--which leads to the split screen or sideline shots of the coaches for no reason and the endless control over offensive play/approach. It sucks to watch and it's okay to speak your mind if you hate it.
My own take is Cal's like majority of CBB coaches who for some reason view offense as a necessity and not the way to win. It's what wins. Period. Basketball is the lone sport where shot making and offense always will win over defense. You can accomplish it in different ways--but the method of approach Cal uses doesn't speak to efficient basketball early on and sometimes not for majority of the season. Offense is what fans enjoy seeing and more importantly urgency with offense--like pushing the ball into the frontcourt and looking for quick opportunities. Look at last night's game--Utah played that way until they were up 17 and realized they could win the game--then they took the air out and blew the entire lead. Why? They decided that scoring didn't matter.
Not sure what the NCAA Rules committee can do-they've lowered the clock, had the 3pt line closer/further back to increase more movement, and we still see control freak coaches in CBB want to take air out. If not for fouls/FT's most of the games in CBB would be played in the mid to high 50's.
Always tell people who get down about "today's players"--go watch them in HS and AAU. Then watch when they get to the NBA. Now why is the middle man who gets them providing the worst version of them/the sport? All the coaches fall in love with players at AAU seeing them flourish in an open style of game against elite talent. Then they play same way in NBA with best players in world. Get to college and it's a muck fest where scoring/offensive freedom is not taught--it has to be coached to play faster and so many think that's just natural. You've got to encourage guys to play and not put a label on their play. I despise when Cal talks of the 3pt attempts limit. Why? Just play. Some games you take more/make more, some you won't/don't but you don't need to put anything in a player's head--just let them play and focus on the feel for that particular game. The coaching takes place at practices and offseason but during a game a coach's #1 job is to understand momentum and judge the game's flow.
Unfortunately for the fans/viewers, Cal is like majority of guys and had to put his stamp on things--which leads to the split screen or sideline shots of the coaches for no reason and the endless control over offensive play/approach. It sucks to watch and it's okay to speak your mind if you hate it.
Here's the truth. UK fans are spoiled infants. We've become so accustomed to being a perennial title contender that we throw ourselves into the grocery aisle having a tantrum when we don't see 20-pt wins from day one. Most of you people don't remember the days under Tubby. Heck, many don't even remember Gillispie. I remember it well. These are the glory days folks. We're all suffering from ADD and need a time-out. I would suggest a good, old fashioned whoopin' but corporal punishment is illegal these days, right? 
By March, this team will be a top 10 team and Final 4 contender. Seriously, we go through this every year. We aren't going to destroy teams every game like in 2015 every year.
agree, it is rare to see any back door plays, deliberate passes, give and go play - it’s one guy with the ball and four watching until it’s their turn
I’m personally tired of all the NBA talk. The kids that come to UK now rarely do it because they have pride in what we stand for. They see UK as the fast lane to the NBA.
I mean do we start the season with that NBA workout day for the benefit of the Kentucky basketball program? No, it’s for the player’s and puts in their minds right off the bat that their goal for the year is to improve on that! We start the season talking about the NBA and end it talking about who’s going to the NBA!!
Cal has done a lot for the players and their families and that’s great. But I think it’s time to get back to winning as many games and championships as we can!
It is honestly like we are a NBA farm league team.
I want to just be Kentucky Basketball again.
I mean do we start the season with that NBA workout day for the benefit of the Kentucky basketball program? No, it’s for the player’s and puts in their minds right off the bat that their goal for the year is to improve on that! We start the season talking about the NBA and end it talking about who’s going to the NBA!!
Cal has done a lot for the players and their families and that’s great. But I think it’s time to get back to winning as many games and championships as we can!
It is honestly like we are a NBA farm league team.
I want to just be Kentucky Basketball again.
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