One that, even then, was striving on trying to out-talent, rather than build continuity and depth in his teams? No thanks. The guy had ONE THING on his mind when he came here. And it wasn't winning titles.
UK basketball is in worse shape today, than it was in 1989 when we were placed on probation.
- Thread starter TopCatCal
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People have to be complete Cal haters to ignore bringing in the #1 recruiting class as though it doesn’t matter.
I’m not a hater or a sunshine pumper.
2 Facts - 1) Recruiting DOES matter and is crucial for winning. Cal is one of the best at this. 2) Roster development ALSO matters. Cal struggles with this and is currently failing in this important area.
I’m realistic enough to know there are some problems. But, I’m also realistic enough to know recruiting is critical for winning. You don’t have to disparage what Cal does well (recruit) to voice concern or dissatisfaction with his weaknesses.
We won’t have just 7 much longer.
But you ignore the huge effect the no-wait transfer portal has made unjust 3-4 years. What was it over 1700 enter the portal this year, that is 5 per team. Even if that includes D2, still probably at least 2-3 per team in D1. So you can’t compare to the past. But I agree our current situation is ridiculous and is Cal’s fault.
How well did the top recruiting classes do last season? By the time these young kids learn the game and become somewhat able to handle the physical play of transfer portal and graduate players, the season is over.
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Your drunk!!!
They’re not the best class in a long time. They are developmentally behind by at least a year bc of COVID, can’t shoot, and likely can’t play defense. These narratives people twist to protect Cal are certifiably insane.
I’m not twisting any narrative and I’m a far cry from trying to defend Cal. He has his coaching warts and they’re getting bigger.
This isn’t first class that missed a year of development because of Covid and is Cal’s best recruiting class in awhile. Those two facts coexist.
Cal is most definitely a lesser coach than the master of the Porcinis Fifteeno, but the roster this year will have some talent on paper. It's another flawed roster with holes that prevent winning basketball.
I have zero confidence that Cal can get as much out of talent as Ricky three stacks did out of his early UK teams.
I have zero confidence that Cal can get as much out of talent as Ricky three stacks did out of his early UK teams.
This is the worst shape I have ever seen the KY basketball program in.
At least during probation you had dudes that wanted to be here and play for KY.
At least we knew how long probation was going to last. We have no clue how long Fatso plans on holding our once great program hostage.
At least during probation we had an excuse for sucking. Now we just have Cat Falbert!!!!
At least during probation you had dudes that wanted to be here and play for KY.
At least we knew how long probation was going to last. We have no clue how long Fatso plans on holding our once great program hostage.
At least during probation we had an excuse for sucking. Now we just have Cat Falbert!!!!
This may be the problem. But if so, it would seem to me that it would have to be due to a perception that Calipari will play freshmen over better players. I don't think the top transfers would be afraid to compete in fair competition against the freshmen. But maybe some would feel like they would have to share too much time or something.
Regardless, if the problem really is that top transfers will not transfer to UK if there's a 5-star freshman at the same position, then the fix is easy. Stop recruiting so many OAD freshmen when the current iteration of the transfer portal produces better players for that one-year.
Did you just forget the 9-16 season with a #1 recruiting class LOL?
I agree 100% that UK will rarely see a player’s best. Many of them have high ceilings and we get a glimpse of them for 4 months.
I also agree with you that we need a couple good older players. I’ve always said very good older players will beat great younger talent in a “one loss and you’re out” scenario. (Talent probably wins a playoff series.)
You say recruiting class is meaningless and I guarantee every coach would take them if they could get them.
My biggest concern with Cal is his apparent arrogance to think he doesn’t need NIL to attract or keep the very player you describe. They are not lining up to play for him or just to be part of UK. Who will stay/come compete for PT against likely NBA players without some financial guarantees. College basketball changed quickly and Cal needs to change with it or retire. Players are now making business decisions. Older players will not come to UK without financial guarantees.
Top recruiting classes DO matter immensely. Surround best freshmen with 3 good veteran players and you have chance to win it all every year!
This prediction had real potential. Then we lost all our transfer targets and Oscar. We may not even return reeves now. I’ll reserve judgement until the roster is final. But damn it’s lacking currently
You make some logical points. I’m not convinced current iteration of portal is better than top freshman talent. That’s just my perception and agree that others may have opposite view.
My immediate concern is this year. Cal has the type of recruiting class he likes. Yet, to date, has fumbled the ball with getting key transfers to make a real championship roster. He only needs 2-3 key pieces. This is UK and paying players is legal!!! He should have created scenario where top veteran transfers (who may never play NBA) are treated and paid like royalty. There are Ky businesses that would love to have UK basketball players endorse them and be ready to give them great paying jobs after college.
Cal has historically played best players regardless of high school rankings. (Many disagree with this.). SGA was probably our lowest recruit in his class. Yet, he proved himself and Cal rewarded him. Same for Herro and a few others.
Why would any top transfer come and compete against (potential) NBA draft pick? Transfer player is likely still in college because he wouldn’t get drafted. Who knows how incoming hs player will be. They have the potential upside. Some thrive and others struggle. UK only needs to retain/recruit 2-3 of these older players a year. NIL is the answer and making sure older players are not perceived as failures.
I thought Nick Richards, Quickley, and PJ Washington were going to be poster children for returning to UK or transferring to UK. Cal used to be a marketing machine, but has gotten fat and lazy. NIL should make it easier, not harder.
I want the returning talent by retaining them or bringing them in as transfers.
We shouldn’t have to sacrifice top recruiting classes to do it!
No, one that knew how to be on the edge of the game while landing top quality dudes. Cal true d us from flounders to nearly a FF4 contender in one season. That’s what I was talking about.
I don’t think there’s currently any coach who could do that right now. Hard to say. But we have to do something because this nonsense can’t continue.
Probably correct... only problem is we're probably going five years before we can get someone to get us out of this whole.
No, he didn't forget. He is simply attempting to create his own reality, one in which most UK fans don't exist in.
It is unfortunate that some Kentucky fans have been so beaten down by a lousy coach and person that they are incapable of realizing that a good not even great coach can turn things around rather quickly. We have been in worse shape and was revived rather quickly. When Kentucky eventually gets another coach and school ambassador who refocuses the attention on the program and not individual players, things will turn around quickly. Rapid change doesn't appear possible now because Cal told the high school and AAU basketball world that UK accepts selfish behavior and has no expectation of players' loyalty, so this is what we have become use to and believe is universal behavior. However, this isn't the case. Cal's behavior told them that UK is a place for takers vs givers. For the most part the current UK player knows nothing about UK's iconic past and doesn't care to know about it. They are here for their own selfish reasons and they will leave without hesitation as soon as it looks like there is someone else willing to give them more. Our problems are the following: incompetent & lazy coach, takers vs givers players, an AD who has lost institutional control, and way too many accepting fans.
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In 1989, we were coming off a 13-19 season, we’re just hit with probation that included no live TV games for a year, we were banned from the NCAA Tournament for 2 years and our recruiting class coming in was Jeff Brassow and 2 walk-ons.
We have been much lower than this.
I don't agree with your assessment, not of that particular situation. It was obvious early on that the program had been turned over to someone who had the vision, skills, and players' buy-in to be successful. The coach had contagious swag that was quickly infected the players. Those players all played way above their capabilities because they were coached to believe anything was possible. When was the last time a UK coach had that type of impact on players? We might not have had a lot of talent, but we had a coach who talked his players into believing they were the little engine who could.
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9-16 season and 1 tourney win in 4 years is worse than the probation days.
We have a fun, competitive group coming in. I prefer to keep an open mind, at least as far as this upcoming season is concerned.
Gun to my head, I would expect something like a 21-10 regular season, something like ‘14 or ‘18.
Could the wheels fall off? Sure. I just prefer to hope for something more like ‘20, where our guards knocked down free throws to close out wins, as opposed to ‘21, where we choked away every decent chance we got.
Gun to my head, I would expect something like a 21-10 regular season, something like ‘14 or ‘18.
Could the wheels fall off? Sure. I just prefer to hope for something more like ‘20, where our guards knocked down free throws to close out wins, as opposed to ‘21, where we choked away every decent chance we got.
It’s retroactive thinking though. OP was talking about when Pitino was hired, not the results from his initial season when that team was so fun to watch. Even when Pitino was hired, we were still in much worse shape than now. We hoped that it was as good of a hire that we thought it was. Hell, even early on in that season, KU beat us by 55, and we lost to SW Louisiana at home.
I think maybe the optimism was higher, but we are not in worse shape imo.
I was around in 1989 and as disappointed as I am in the program and the leadership, we haven't hit 1989 levels of suckage-yet. If a few things fall into place, I could see this team making the tournament and winning a game or two..which as dismal as that might seem is par for the course of the last couple of years. I could actually see this team maybe going a game or two farther than the last couple of years, although experience is obviously a concern.
However, if the new kids bolt after a year, and we don't recruit or hit the transfer portal, things could be equally as grim as 1989 next year.
However, if the new kids bolt after a year, and we don't recruit or hit the transfer portal, things could be equally as grim as 1989 next year.
The big difference for me is that we knew when probation would end. There’s no end in site with Cal. I can’t imagine another 6 seasons of the mediocrity we have been experiencing the past 3 seasons. If he isn‘t bought out or doesn’t decide to leave, things can end up far worse than the probation years.
The situation we faced was understandable and there was a way forward. At the time, no one knew how long it would take to improve things but at least there was a plan. There is no current plan for improvement. Until we get rid of the COVID-19 of coaching, there is no reason for any sense of optimism because the problem isn't going away anytime soon.
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You make some darn fine points yourself. And I agree with most everything. (Plus, I particularly like that you’re so sharp that you don’t have to denigrate others or put people in boxes so you can respond generically to make your point).
At this time, we differ somewhat on who the better college basketball players are. It’s an oversimplification, but I see it as All-American/All-conference and potential All-American/All-conference players (Top Transfer Portal) vs high draft picks and potential high draft picks (5-star OAD freshmen). For example, I think a starting five of my guys have a much greater chance of winning a Title than a starting 5 of your guys (so to speak). But at the same time, I think a team with a starting 5 with say 1-2 OADs could potentially be even better due to the high floor and consistency play of the upperclassmen combined with the occasional plays of the OAD that only their athleticism or talent allow.
I don't want another "Cal" nor anything like him. I do not want another NBA farm team coach.
GBB!
Like you, I’m not a fan of the emotion driven posts, name calling, or ignoring a person’s strengths/weaknesses just because of my agreement/disagreement with them.
I think we agree on the point that top young talent plus some good veteran players is a winning formula. (That doesn’t make us brilliant ;- ) I think 99% of coaches would like to have the mixture of both.
I acknowledge 100% that the term “#1 recruiting class” means different things every year. There was a big difference between AD & Skal; Wall, Fox, Monk -vs Hagans, Askew, Boston; etc ...
If you’re going to win with young players then they MUST be the best, plus you need 3-4 very good ones. Cal was able to do this for awhile: but not lately. If you don’t have 3-4 extremely good freshmen, then you must have 3-4 solid veterans. (I think a couple good freshmen combined with just a couple solid veterans will just make you a possible S16 team (Wallace, Livingston, Toppin & Oscar)
There’s more than one way to skin a cat and Cal appeared to be stuck between trying to decide how best to build a roster the last 2 years.
Sink or swim, I do think he decided last year to get back to trying to stockpile the best recruits possible. At his heart, that’s who he is.
My posts were mainly in response to “probation environment” and “top recruiting classes don’t matter.” Both of those takes are emotional responses to not liking Cal and nowhere close to reality.
Consequently, Cal isn’t going to advance far this year w/o 2-3 more good veteran players. He needs to resolve Reeves issue quickly. (The longer it lingers the more it hurts us bringing in a shooter.) Cal’s back is against the wall. It will be interesting to see what he’s able to do in next 2-3 weeks.
Not defending Cal at all. But to get some of the best dudes you do have to have SOME connections to the next level. Doesn’t have to be a farm coach but it can’t be Jo blow from BFE.
No....
1980- SW 16
1981- 22-6: Second round
1982- 22-8: 1st round
1983: 29-8: Elite 8
1984- 29-5: FF
1985: 18-13: SW 16
1986: 32-4: Elite *
1987-- 18-11 :8 seed. Lost in 1st round to OSU
1988--- 25-5 :2 seed...Lost in SW 16 to Nova.
1989--13-19---UK's first losing season in 63 years.
1990---14-14.
Asides from a 4 year stretch(83-86), UK was very average.
Kentucky was fortunate to hire Rick. No one else does he did.
What a dumb take. I don't remember having 4 top 10 & another top 30 freshman in 1989. Some of yall just need to quit thinking until you get your emotions in check.
They're always out there. I think Vogel would have been one. Nick Nurse is also someone to watch.
Then there's Scott Drew, JB Bickerstaff, Bob Richey, Austin Clauch, etc. Both of the last two guys aren't even 40 years old, and in Claunch's case, he's only 33.
I'd get someone who is young and who eats, sleeps, and dreams about winning. Calipari is going to have grandkids soon, and his priorities are that a guy whose winding down in life, not that of a young man who breathes fires when his feet hit the ground each morning.
Those young guys need to have a solid resume before taking a job like this. Minus Joe B. Hall, every previous coach had earned their stripes.
I also wouldn't hold out for Nick Nurse or Frank Vogel. Nurse makes $8 million a year and Vogel makes over $6.2 million a year for and they don't have to deal recruiting teenagers, the portal or NIL.
