Top 5 centers of all time?

[bthaunert]

I didn't see, or at least don't remember seeing, Russell play, but I know his accomplishments will never be equaled as far as winning titles go. It's quite astounding (both college and pro), but some people who I respect have made the case that Wilt was the better player. I have no idea, and the gap in titles between the two is hard to overcome, but who is to say Russell would have won that many if he was on another team. Just wondering if you saw them play, and if you have any thoughts on the matter.[/QUOTE]

I have not seen them play. I am 38, so have to go by stats and what others say to put an opinion in. Yes, the titles are astounding, but put another center on that team and would they have won all of those titles. I just find it interesting that a guy who averaged 18ppg is often considered one of the top 5 players of all time. Most accomplished? absolutely!

 

[jrpross]

Russell is ONLY considered better than Wilt when you count titles, which is stupid logic. Robert Horry has more titles than Michael Jordan. Wilt is the best basketball player ever, bar none. I would put him in an argument as one of the best ATHLETES ever.

Not true. (Again just going from what I've heard) But Russel is considered to be the best defensive center of all time. To say he's better than Jordan BAR NONE, is a little ridiculous.

 

[Hoskins91]

In no particular order;
Russell
Kareem
Wilt
Duncan
Hakeem

Duncan has spent most of his career playing center at this point, but if you want to be stubborn about him being a pf, just take him out and add Shaq. The honorable mention would be Moses Malone.

 

[Hoskins91]

Again, in no particular order, just post merger centers;
Kareem
Duncan
Hakeem
Shaq
Moses
Those are the best of the best. if you put a good team around them you are most likely winning a title. Everyone else is a good margin below.

 

[Mojocat]

If Bill Russell played in the 80s and 90s he would have played PF

Probably. 6'9 and 220. No shot to speak of. Don't want to turn this into the customary old geezers vs young whipsnappers debate, but man, that is small for a 4 by today's standards. KD by comparison is 6'9 and 240.....

 

[Mojocat]

Thanks @Aike, forgot about that title he won with Oscar. If you look at everything - his overall game plus total (high school, college, pro) career - you'd think Kareem would be not only the best 5 but arguably best player ever period. He gets little love - likely because everyone thinks he's a horse's ass....

 

[KingOfBBN]

1. Kareem
2. Wilt
3. Russell
4. Hakeem
5. Shaq

This is assuming we're calling Duncan a PF.

This is my list as well. Kareem is hands down the best center of all-time. Don't care what anyone else says. He dominated college and the NBA and has six rings where he played way better competition than Russell ever did (and there were more teams).

 

[KingOfBBN]

Russell won so many of his titles when there were only 6 teams in the playoffs and automatically got a bye to the conference finals.

Russell would have got destroyed by a guy like Shaq. His game would not hold up nearly as well in the modern era of basketball. All of the other centers would.

 

[UKGloryRoad]

It's silly to leave Wilt off of any list he was giving Jabber all he wanted at the age of 35...

 

[UKDUNK]

I've been a basketball fan since the early 90's. The best centers I have seen in my lifetime.....

1. Hakeem
2. Shaq
3. David Robinson
4. Ewing
5. Cousins

I'm sure there is a bit of homerism putting Boogie on the list, but I think he is better than Zo, Marc Gasol and Mutombo. I was never overly impressed with Dwight Howard even though he has put up some good numbers over the years. I feel like if DeMarcus ever teams up with another high level all-star type player, like all the other elite centers of all-time have, he will have a Shaq like impact on the NBA.

 

[UKGloryRoad]

This is my list as well. Kareem is hands down the best center of all-time. Don't care what anyone else says. He dominated college and the NBA and has six rings where he played way better competition than Russell ever did (and there were more teams).

Top two with Wilt the sky hook will be legendary for years to come.

 

[king of cali]

I've been a basketball fan since the early 90's. The best centers I have seen in my lifetime.....

1. Hakeem
2. Shaq
3. David Robinson
4. Ewing
5. Cousins

I'm sure there is a bit of homerism putting Boogie on the list, but I think he is better than Zo, Marc Gasol and Mutombo. I was never overly impressed with Dwight Howard even though he has put up some good numbers over the years. I feel like if DeMarcus ever teams up with another high level all-star type player, like all the other elite centers of all-time have, he will have a Shaq like impact on the NBA.

A lot of homerism in that lol. When Howard was right, before he got injured, you were able to surround him with a bunch of role players and he led them deep into the playoffs, including one finals appearance. Cousins hasn't even gotten his team of role players to the playoffs. No way could he be on a list over Howard right now.

 

[Big_Blue79]

I've never really understood how anyone (other than the folks who treat Wilt like basketball Bo Jackson with all the stories of him bench pressing elephants and jumping over school buses and stuff) can rank anyone at the top of the list besides Kareem.

If you were going to make an argument for the best or second best or whatever player of all time (depending on your view of MJ), he seems like as good a candidate as any. Where are the weaknesses? Stats, titles, consistency, longevity, wins, awards, etc.

I realize he looked goofy at the end, but I just don't get the lack of appreciation for everything that guy accomplished.

It's kind of interesting that in these mythical "best players of all time" conversations Kareem doesn't get more play. I suspect he very much did for a long time, but no longer it seems. But whatever the argument about best player ever, I don't think there is any argument about best career. Kareem was that rare superstar high school player that actually panned out Only other example of that coming to mind is LeBron. Jordan, for example, no one knew until he got to Carolina and even as a freshman was viewed as a nice player for a good while that year. There have only been a limited number of superstar, absurdly hyped high school players, and most didn't live up (Ralph Sampson, e.g.). In college, all he did was go 88-1, 3 titles, 3 final four MVPs. Would have been 4/4 if freshmen were eligible. And then at the professional level, I think he won 5 titles and had 6 MVPs, off the top of my head. I don't think anyone else comes close to that. Russell probably second......

Strongly concur.

1. Kareem
2. Russell or Wilt
3. Wilt or Russel
4. Hakeem or Shaq
5. Shaq or Hakeem

Honorable Mention: Robinson, Malone, Smits.

 

[Myth Buster51]

I've never really understood how anyone (other than the folks who treat Wilt like basketball Bo Jackson with all the stories of him bench pressing elephants and jumping over school buses and stuff) can rank anyone at the top of the list besides Kareem.

If you were going to make an argument for the best or second best or whatever player of all time (depending on your view of MJ), he seems like as good a candidate as any. Where are the weaknesses? Stats, titles, consistency, longevity, wins, awards, etc.

I realize he looked goofy at the end, but I just don't get the lack of appreciation for everything that guy accomplished.

^This.^ Kareem led UCLA to three NCAA championships in this three years of college eligibility [and kicked the crap out of the varsity team during his freshman season when freshmen were ineligible to play]. Abdul-Jabbar was a six time NBA MVP, he won 6 NBA championships, was voted All-NBA 15 times. And he still holds the all-time record for most points scored in the NBA.

 

[UKDUNK]

A lot of homerism in that lol. When Howard was right, before he got injured, you were able to surround him with a bunch of role players and he led them deep into the playoffs, including one finals appearance. Cousins hasn't even gotten his team of role players to the playoffs. No way could he be on a list over Howard right now.

Howard probably goes at #5. The new soft-Dwight is probably clouding my memory of his more dominant days. I just don't think DeMarcus should be penalized for being on a terrible team in a historically loaded western conference. Had Philly taken DeMarcus instead of Turner and built around him and Jrue Holiday, they could have built a contender in the east.

 

[turkeywildturkey]

Ill take a prime Shaq over any other center hands down.

You obviously did not see Wilt Chamberlain or Kareem play. Chamberlain averaged 50 points and almost 30 rebounds one year in the NBA. Think about that.

 

[the nail at the foul line]

College only. Kareem Walton Russell Chamberlain Ewing

 

[J_Dee]

Just some stats, for fun:

NBA/ABA Career Regular Season PER (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/per_career.html)
5. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Neil Johnston
3. Wilt Chamberlain
2. David Robinson
1. Shaquille O'Neal

Regular Season Win Shares Per 48 Minutes (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_per_48_career.html):
5. Tim Duncan
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Neil Johnston
2. Wilt Chamberlain
1. David Robinson

Playoffs PER (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/per_career_p.html):
5. Dwight Howard
4. Tim Duncan
3. Hakeem Olajuwon
2. Shaquille O'Neal
1. George Mikan

Playoffs Win Shares Per 48 Minutes (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_per_48_career_p.html)
5. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Tim Duncan
3. David Robinson
2. Wilt Chamberlain
1. George Mikan

MVPs (awarded in the NBA since 1956):
5. Tim Duncan (2), Mel Daniels (2, both ABA)
4. Moses Malone (3)
3. Wilt Chamberlain (4)
2. Bill Russell (5)
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (6)

Finals MVP (the Bill Russell MVP, only awarded since 1969):
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Willis Reed, Hakeem Olajuwon (2)
1. Tim Duncan, Shaquille O'Neal (3)

All-NBA Team:
5. Bill Russell (3 first, 8 second)
4. Hakeem Olajuwon (6 first, 3 second, 3 third)
3. Shaquille O'Neal (8, 4, 2)
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (10, 5), Tim Duncan (10, 3, 2)

ABA All-Time Team (1997):
Moses Malone, Billy Paultz, Spencer Haywood, Artis Gilmore, Mel Daniels

 

[king of cali]

You obviously did not see Wilt Chamberlain or Kareem play. Chamberlain averaged 50 points and almost 30 rebounds one year in the NBA. Think about that.

Completely different era of basketball. Elgin averaging 38 and 19 as a part time player is more impressive.

 

[wildcatsboston1984]

If Olajuwon isn't in your top five then you're doing it wrong.

 

[hawkin]

Wilt's list of NBA records an accomplishments are way to numerous to list here. Just hit the link below. IMO, yes i'm a Jayhawk fan, but there has never been a more dominant athlete ever in the NBA. His ability's were head & shoulders above any of his peers.

For the poster above who said he was only a offensive player, Wilt's career avg. for rebounds was almost 23 a game.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_career_achievements_by_Wilt_Chamberlain

 

[king of cali]

We all know what Wilt's records are. Most of those are a by product of an era where the pace was run and gun, offensive goaltending was allowed, and there were very few who could match up with him physically. Shaq was just as dominant, in a better era for big men, and his dominance actually led to winning titles, unlike Wilt.

 

[TruBluCatFan]

Wilt
Jabber
Akeem
Shaq
Ewing

If Bill Russell played in the 80s and 90s he would have played PF

But he didn't. He was a center and to not put him in top 5 makes me wonder about you.

 

[hawkin]

We all know what Wilt's records are. Most of those are a by product of an era where the pace was run and gun, offensive goaltending was allowed, and there were very few who could match up with him physically. Shaq was just as dominant, in a better era for big men, and his dominance actually led to winning titles, unlike Wilt.

Shaq was no where near as dominant as Wilt Chamberlain. Just stop.

 

[CrustyCat]

This conversation just isn't legit if we leave Moses Malone so far out of the conversation. He was an absolute load for a very long time in the NBA/ABA:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/malonmo01.html

 

[UKgreatinmyveins]

Hakeem vs David Robinson has always been interesting for me. Their per game averages are almost identical, both have a MVP, and a couple titles each with Hakeem being the best player on both his. When you look at the advanced numbers Robinson is ahead by PER, Offensive rating, defensive rating, win shares, win shares/48, value over replacement player. Robinson at his peak was absolutely unbelievable.

Living in San Antonio, growing up those were some great matchups between those two. Oh the 90s.......

 

[bigblueinsanity]

One of the more glaring advantages Hakeem had over the Admiral, was a post game. Robinson was basically a face up player, who happened to be 7 feet tall. In terms of the center position, that carries a lot of weight with me.

Hakeem was just lethal in all aspects.

 

[Myth Buster51]

We all know what Wilt's records are. Most of those are a by product of an era where the pace was run and gun, offensive goaltending was allowed, and there were very few who could match up with him physically. Shaq was just as dominant, in a better era for big men, and his dominance actually led to winning titles, unlike Wilt.

You ever score 50 in a game? Even just once? Shaquille O'Neal did it all of 3 times during his entire career [only once more than all-world Antawn Jamison] Wilt Chamberlain had a season where he averaged 50 per game. You truly have to work your tail off to score 50 in a game, and Wilt did it night in and night out. That's dominance.

The "very few who could match up physically with Wilt" argument isn't very compelling. Did you actually watch Shaq play? His offensive game was built around planting his 350 lb frame low in the paint and simply running over anyone between him and the goal - rarely if ever getting called for an offensive foul. No turn around jump shots, no spin moves, no sky hooks, no footwork. Instead, lower the massive shoulder, run 'em over and lay it in or dunk it. Granted, it worked for O'Neal. But if there was anyone who was the recipient of no one else being able to physically match up with him, it was O'Neal.

 

[Bigblueforever]

(1) Jabbar
(2) Russell
(3) Chamberlain
(4) Shaq
(5) Olajuwon

 

[WeepNoMore]

Saw them all in their prime.

Best center: Russell hands down. All others a distant second.

Best player: Russell hands down. All others, with the possible exceptions of Jordan and James, a distant second.

Simple reasons, aside from the 11 titles in 13 years:

1. Russell had a "will to win" that only Michael Jordan even came close to.
2. Russell made his teammates better to a degree no other player has even approached.
3. Russell changed the game with a basketball IQ that far exceeded that of any other player.

Before you stats and athleticism gurus go ballistic, I'll make it as simple as possible. Remember BB is a team sport; it's not tennis and it's not track and field. When you are the best player on consistently the best teams over a 13-year period, you are simply the best to ever play the game, period end of story.

To the poster who commented Shaq would have dominated Russell, I can only say: Get real. Spend some time trying to understand the game of basketball.

 

[king of cali]

You ever score 50 in a game? Even just once? Shaquille O'Neal did it all of 3 times during his entire career [only once more than all-world Antawn Jamison] Wilt Chamberlain had a season where he averaged 50 per game. You truly have to work your tail off to score 50 in a game, and Wilt did it night in and night out. That's dominance.

The "very few who could match up physically with Wilt" argument isn't very compelling. Did you actually watch Shaq play? His offensive game was built around planting his 350 lb frame low in the paint and simply running over anyone between him and the goal - rarely if ever getting called for an offensive foul. No turn around jump shots, no spin moves, no sky hooks, no footwork. Instead, lower the massive shoulder, run 'em over and lay it in or dunk it. Granted, it worked for O'Neal. But if there was anyone who was the recipient of no one else being able to physically match up with him, it was O'Neal.

Like I said, we know the records, Wilt scored 50 for a season blah, blah, blah. But never does anyone mention the pace of play and the rules that would even allow something like that to be possible. A lot of players were putting up gaudy stats. Is it impressive? Sure it is. But let's also keep it in perspective. For as "dominant " as you seem to think averaging 50 for a season was, who was named MVP for that very season? And remember, that was back in the day when the players, aka Wilts peers, did the voting. So again, how dominant was it when his own peers voted someone else as being better.

Lol at Shaq having no spin moves, no jump hooks, no footwork. Talking about never seeing someone play. His game was brute strength, but he also had plenty of finesse in his game. Not many big men had better footwork than Shaq. At his absolute peak only Jabbar was better. And the difference between Shaqs dominance and Wilts is that Shaqs resulted in 4 titles in 6 years. Something Wult can never say. His dominance helped his team instead of just himself.

 

[twocoach]

No offense, but I think the opinion of KU fans is a little biased. Not that I am saying you are wrong, but.....

So Kentucky fans that claim Anthony Davis is awesome are biased? He IS awesome.

It doesn't take a Kansas fan to point out that Jordan best season scoring is still almost 1,000 points less than Wilt's. And after Wilt got sick of his coach yelling at him for not passing enough, he led the NBA in assists just to prove he could if he felt like it. Leaf through the NBA record book and there is no doubt who the best player of all time is.

 

[twocoach]

Saw them all in their prime.

Best center: Russell hands down. All others a distant second.

Best player: Russell hands down. All others, with the possible exceptions of Jordan and James, a distant second.

Simple reasons, aside from the 11 titles in 13 years:

1. Russell had a "will to win" that only Michael Jordan even came close to.
2. Russell made his teammates better to a degree no other player has even approached.
3. Russell changed the game with a basketball IQ that far exceeded that of any other player.

Before you stats and athleticism gurus go ballistic, I'll make it as simple as possible. Remember BB is a team sport; it's not tennis and it's not track and field. When you are the best player on consistently the best teams over a 13-year period, you are simply the best to ever play the game, period end of story.

To the poster who commented Shaq would have dominated Russell, I can only say: Get real. Spend some time trying to understand the game of basketball.

Put eight Hall of Famers on the same team as Shaq or Wilt like Russell had and it's a different NBA.

 

[twocoach]

Like I said, we know the records, Wilt scored 50 for a season blah, blah, blah. But never does anyone mention the pace of play and the rules that would even allow something like that to be possible. A lot of players were putting up gaudy stats. Is it impressive? Sure it is. But let's also keep it in perspective. For as "dominant " as you seem to think averaging 50 for a season was, who was named MVP for that very season? And remember, that was back in the day when the players, aka Wilts peers, did the voting. So again, how dominant was it when his own peers voted someone else as being better.

Eh, WHAT? Yes, the league team scoring average was 18 ppg higher but he scored 1,000 more than any player in NBA history has ever scored in a season. And he didn't have the luxury of the three point line that Jordan had when he scored 1,000 less than Wilt's '62 season. And you're shocked that the players that Wilt humiliated to the tune of 50 points and 25 rebounds a game didn't vote him MVP? They HATED HIM. It's absurd to have the players voting on the MVP. Oh, and he averaged 48.5 minutes a game and a game is only 48 minutes long. Dude played almost every second of every game his team played.

 

[gossie21]

Put eight Hall of Famers on the same team as Shaq or Wilt like Russell had and it's a different NBA.

Nobody is saying Wilt was terrible, or doesn't deserve to be in the discussion. I think he is the 2nd best center to ever play. Definitely in the top-5 NBA players of all-time without question.

He went head to head with Russell plenty.... and he even won most of those games, except when it really counted. That is why Russell is better. He is the equivalent of Tracy McGrady, eye-popping numbers with little post-season success (relative obviously, because Wilt did actually produce in the postseason whereas McGrady did not).

 

[gossie21]

Eh, WHAT? Yes, the league team scoring average was 18 ppg higher but he scored 1,000 more than any player in NBA history has ever scored in a season. And he didn't have the luxury of the three point line that Jordan had when he scored 1,000 less than Wilt's '62 season. And you're shocked that the players that Wilt humiliated to the tune of 50 points and 25 rebounds a game didn't vote him MVP? They HATED HIM. It's absurd to have the players voting on the MVP. Oh, and he averaged 48.5 minutes a game and a game is only 48 minutes long. Dude played almost every second of every game his team played.

Seriously, are you one of the 20,000 Wilt is alleged to have bedded? You seem to think it is the greatest insult to suggest that a handful of players were possibly better (which is inherently subjective).

Get over yourself.

 

[Hoskins91]

Eh, WHAT? Yes, the league team scoring average was 18 ppg higher but he scored 1,000 more than any player in NBA history has ever scored in a season. And he didn't have the luxury of the three point line that Jordan had when he scored 1,000 less than Wilt's '62 season. And you're shocked that the players that Wilt humiliated to the tune of 50 points and 25 rebounds a game didn't vote him MVP? They HATED HIM. It's absurd to have the players voting on the MVP. Oh, and he averaged 48.5 minutes a game and a game is only 48 minutes long. Dude played almost every second of every game his team played.

Nobody liked him because he was a self obsessed stats whore who would throw everyone else under the bus whenever things didn't go his way. For all of his ridiculous stats, it never seemed to translate into actual team success, especially in the post season. You look at all of the great players he played with, the greatest player ever should have been able to do more.

 

[SilentsAreGolden]

So Kentucky fans that claim Anthony Davis is awesome are biased? He IS awesome.

It doesn't take a Kansas fan to point out that Jordan best season scoring is still almost 1,000 points less than Wilt's. And after Wilt got sick of his coach yelling at him for not passing enough, he led the NBA in assists just to prove he could if he felt like it. Leaf through the NBA record book and there is no doubt who the best player of all time is.

Bad analogy. No UK fan is claiming Davis is the greatest player of all time.

 

[king of cali]

Nobody liked him because he was a self obsessed stats whore who would throw everyone else under the bus whenever things didn't go his way. For all of his ridiculous stats, it never seemed to translate into actual team success, especially in the post season. You look at all of the great players he played with, the greatest player ever should have been able to do more.

Exactly!!! For all the "dominance" and eye popping stats, you would think it would translate into actual winning. But it didn't. When Jordan was the dominant player in the league he won 6 titles in 8 years. When Shaq was the dominant player, he won 4 titles in 6 years. LeBron is working on his 3rd in 5 years. For some reason Wilts "dominance" doesn't seem to match up. Why is that?

 

[Big_Blue79]

If you're writing about Wilt's per game numbers (or anyone from that era) without accounting for how the league played, then you're doing it wrong. My favorite number is that he never fouled out once, and, as evidenced by his average of 48.5 minutes/game, it's not like his coach was sitting him.

Weird. Reminds me of: