This Could Have All Been Avoided

[jedwar]

I know ifs and buts, but let us look at how things could have been viewed differently.

2010-An elite team with super elite players. Yes we shot poorly against WVU but you cannot convince with with Wall, Cousins, Patterson, Bledsoe that we should not have cut down the nets. Yes outside shooting was a weakness, but man we had legit superstars.

2011-path opened up to where we could have won the title.

2012-success, Championship.

2014-again a path opened up. Had all the pieces and a legit stud in Randel.

2015-To me this is the turning point. So much talent and legit superstars. I think the loss destroyed Cal and much of the fanbase. I'll never get over it. Ever. Win this title and much equity is built up.

2017-Three legit superstars. Could have won it.

To me those are the real threats to win the title and maybe should have. But you can't win them all. So lets say we win half, like I seriously think we should have won 2 more. They were there for the taking. Do that and Cal is a legend that has so much equity built up that we would not be where we are. I know not one fan in person who is on Cal's side anymore. Not one. I think short of a Final Four next year and the fanbase is done with him completely. It will be to a level of ugly that no one believed would be happening.

 

[ManitouDan]

I believe that to be true as well , but the fan base could live with the 15 loss — I think most saw it coming , with better results in other years .

 

[ukjenning44]

I agree Cal should’ve won at least two more titles.

One more and I would be more lenient on him.

But the way he bashes the fan base combined with how our program is a circus now with the players running it.

I’m done with him.

I don’t think he will ever build another NC contender.

I want him gone asap so we can become contenders again.

 

[TankedCat]

I'm frustrated with Barnhart

His silence on this tells me he can't do anything about it, so he dare not address it with the fans

Tubby got an 8 seed in the tournament and Barnhart goes to the press talking about how that isn't acceptable at KY, and then makes demands to Tubby.

I'm sure Barnhart has made some comments - but he has yet to my knowledge made any declaration about the season as a whole this year or last. I seem to remember him going on KSR or some equivalent but still, nothing that you could look back on saying he is going to get involved.

I'd like to think the administration knows the fanbase is done and will at least acknowledge it, but nothing.

I think you could make the argument its Joker bad at this point.

 

[jedwar]

I agree Cal should’ve won at least two more titles.

One more and I would be more lenient on him.

But the way he bashes the fan base combined with how our program is a circus now with the players running it.

I’m done with him.

I don’t think he will ever build another NC contender again.

I want him gone asap so we can become contenders again.

Agree with all you said. It's just so toxic now between Cal and the fanbase. It's like a marriage/relationship gone sour.

 

[GoToTexas]

Don’t underestimate the kneeling backlash and also Cal’s daughters vs. the “fan base” (Twitter trolls). When all that really ramped up is about the time I noticed Cal’s entire attitude towards the fans change.

 

[LineSkiCat14]

One thing I'll say, is that Kentucky didn't really have a "path" open up for them to win in 2014. All these recent years where we got lucky with the bracket opening up.. we really didn't get any of in the first 5-6 seasons. It seems Kentucky always wound up facing the better of the teams in our bracket, aside from a few exceptions.

2014 saw us play the 9-seed, 1-seed, 4-seed, 2-seed, 2-seed.. before losing to the 7th seed Uconn. Really those first 5 games, Kentucky didn't have any sort of easy path to get to the title game. Same with 2011. Only the final game was "easier" based on seed.. but in both of those years, Uconn proved to be the apparent best team in March,

 

[MegaBlue05]

I believe that to be true as well , but the fan base could live with the 15 loss — I think most saw it coming , with better results in other years .

I was worried about Wisconsin most of that season. I remember telling my dad in February of that season that I thought Wisconsin was the only team capable of beating us. I had an awfully bad feeling after we squeaked by Notre Dame and Wisky was up next.

 

[UK90]

We still wouldn’t have won the title (see Villanova), but we also wasted the all time easiest final four path in history in 18.

The seas parted and gave us the all time dream path where we only had to beat three little mid majors that were mere 11, 12 and 13 seeds and a 9 seed playing without its injured best player to reach the final four …yet still blew it.

 

[jedwar]

We still wouldn’t have won the title (see Villanova), but we also wasted the all time easiest final four path in history in 18.

The seas parted and gave us the all time dream path where we only had to beat three little mid majors that were mere 11, 12 and 13 seeds and a 9 seed playing without its injured best player to reach the final four …yet still blew it.

Good point on 2018. Maybe not a title but should have been in the FF.

 

[LineSkiCat14]

We still wouldn’t have won the title (see Villanova), but we also wasted the all time easiest final four path in history in 18.

The seas parted and gave us the all time dream path where we only had to beat three little mid majors that were mere 11, 12 and 13 seeds and a 9 seed playing without its injured best player to reach the final four …yet still blew it.

I mean, if we won that Final4.. we'd still have some people here down playing it. "We only won because the path broke for us!".

Heck, you even hear that with some of our successful tournaments. "We only won because of Harrisons lucky 3's" or "we only won the title because we had AD".

Either way, that year was far enough in the past now that unless we won the title (and even then I'm skeptical), the engine would have ran out of gas in 2023. Cal has changed for the worse, in enough ways that it wouldn't have mattered.

We had a run from 2009 to 2015 that will likely never be reproduced, and we earned every bit of it, IMO. There were no favors from the NCAA. No gimme brackets. No egregiously bad calls that helped give us wins. But, it's time to move onto the next chapter, and hope the next coach can win enough to satisfy the fanbase.

 

[JFCats22]

You can't have expected UK to win all of those years but it is crushing that they did not get at least one more. Absolutely should have one, probably two more, at least. Wouldn't change the struggles of the past few seasons but it would certainly make things look a bit different overall.

 

[CatEye2010]

All of the above, plus the effects of the Cat Killer, John Higgins and his atrocious, biased calls that possibly contributed to loss of 2 titles.

 

[Wally2000]

Winning takes care of everything. All he has to do is win. If he can't have a good season next year he should step down. No 10 loss crap.

 

[jedwar]

You can't have expected UK to win all of those years but it is crushing that they did not get at least one more. Absolutely should have one, probably two more, at least. Wouldn't change the struggles of the past few seasons but it would certainly make things look a bit different overall.

That's the gist of it to me. Just two more of the could haves. Things would be much different imo.

 

[BBNWildcat]

I mean, if we won that Final4.. we'd still have some people here down playing it. "We only won because the path broke for us!".

Heck, you even hear that with some of our successful tournaments. "We only won because of Harrisons lucky 3's" or "we only won the title because we had AD".

Either way, that year was far enough in the past now that unless we won the title (and even then I'm skeptical), the engine would have ran out of gas in 2023. Cal has changed for the worse, in enough ways that it wouldn't have mattered.

We had a run from 2009 to 2015 that will likely never be reproduced, and we earned every bit of it, IMO. There were no favors from the NCAA. No gimme brackets. No egregiously bad calls that helped give us wins. But, it's time to move onto the next chapter, and hope the next coach can win enough to satisfy the fanbase.

Hindsight is 20/20. Now that we’ve got a mountain of data on Cal, yes indeed 2012 looks like an outlier, especially considering the way he mismanaged the second half of the final. I disagree that people would be bitching if we had won at least one more. That would have demonstrated Cal is resourceful enough to repeat his achievements. When we lost to Wisky I stated (correctly) on this board that the refs would never allow Cal to win another title. Ironically the last 4 seasons they haven’t had to intervene directly.

 

[MdWIldcat55]

Every year there are a half dozen teams that can say, "we could have, maybe should have, won the title this year." That's the nature of the tournament.

In 2010, Kansas -- not Kentucky -- was the overall #1 seed with a line-up packed with EXPERIENCED NBA talent. Lost to Northern Iowa.

In 2011, Ohio State was clear and away the best team -- Kentucky beat them. Kansas had a 30 win team. Duke had a 30 win team. North Carolina was a very strong #2 seed. Kentucky beat them as well, as a #4 seed. Then the Cats' shooting went cold against a team with a super-hot guard (who had an excellent NBA career) and a team with better inside players. Oh for Enes Kanter...

In 2012, North Carolina fans still say they deserved the championship but Kendall Marshall got hurt. I say Bullshit, but it has as much validity as Kentucky fans saying the Cats should win it every time UK has a very good team.

In 2014, Florida under tested coach Billy Donovan beat Kentucky THREE TIMES. They lost in the Final Four. Arizona had a 30-win team and Wichita State was undefeated. Kentucky performed remarkably to make the final game -- in which WCS was out injured and Randle was clearly not 100 percent.

In 2015, there were four teams that were heads and shoulders above the others - Notre Dame, Wisconsin, Duke and Kentucky. The draw put Kentucky on a path to have to play all of the other three to win it. The worst possible match-up for Kentucky was Wisconsin. Yeah, the Cats still should have won, but it was a 4.5 point spread at the tip, not a 20 point spread. Teams lose games like that in the tournament every single year.

In 2017, Kentucky was put in the region with the team that was the clear favorite to win it all -UNC--Cheats. Despite one of the worst refereeing screw jobs in history Kentucky was still in position to take that game to OT - then came a lucky shot off a last second scramble. Tournament heart break. Not unique to Kentucky.

This year, Alabama, Houston, Purdue, Kansas, maybe a few others all could make some specious case that with better luck they should have won the title.

I'd say, taken as a whole, Kentucky probably should have won two or even three titles during Calipari's tenure. Injuries, bad refereeing, bad luck, and if you want to believe it bad coaching has so far limited that to one.

That's the nature of a lose and go home tournament. To say Kentucky should have won in 2010, 2011, 2012, 2014, 2015, 2017 is absurd. There were teams -- often multiple teams -- in every single one of those years except 2015 with a greater claim to having fallen short than Kentucky.

 

[Dncmaxwell]

Or what killed us was other teams cheating/NCAA/money and not getting penalized.

Kanter, Ayton, Young, Cunningham, Wiseman, Sharpe, Zion, UNC academic scandal, FBI bribery scandal, etc.

But sure…it was just Cal…

 

[docholiday51]

Agree with all you said. It's just so toxic now between Cal and the fanbase. It's like a marriage/relationship gone sour.

There was never a relationship with the fanbase as far as Cal is concerned. We fans overlooked who Cal was when we were winning and going to FF's He doesn't and never has given a tinker's damn about the fans

As Tanked Cat said it is Joker bad at this point, it is just a matter of how long it stays that way. Staying with the basketball vs football theme a bit more, Stoop's program is in far better shape than Cal's basketball program. Both have about the same chance of winning an SEC title. When the playoffs expand to 12 teams Stoops has a better chance to get there than Cal does to the sweet 16 or elite 8

 

[Runnin'Ramel]

I was worried about Wisconsin most of that season. I remember telling my dad in February of that season that I thought Wisconsin was the only team capable of beating us. I had an awfully bad feeling after we squeaked by Notre Dame and Wisky was up next.

Ultimate revenge game. Very bad setup for UK.

But others thought the ND game was the “scare” they needed.

I’m done with Cal and there’s no coming back without a Final Four next year. But that’s not happening the way he coaches.

 

[pfunk4469]

I believe that to be true as well , but the fan base could live with the 15 loss — I think most saw it coming , with better results in other years .

After that game against Ole Miss in overtime I figured they would get beat eventually. But didn't think final four against the same team they beat the year before.

 

[mcnicKY91]

There was never a relationship with the fanbase as far as Cal is concerned. We fans overlooked who Cal was when we were winning and going to FF's He doesn't and never has given a tinker's damn about the fans

As Tanked Cat said it is Joker bad at this point, it is just a matter of how long it stays that way. Staying with the basketball vs football theme a bit more, Stoop's program is in far better shape than Cal's basketball program. Both have about the same chance of winning an SEC title. When the playoffs expand to 12 teams Stoops has a better chance to get there than Cal does to the sweet 16 or elite 8

While I agree with your first paragraph...UK football will never sniff an SEC title as long as UGA and Bama are around. Not gonna happen. And that is not even mentioning any of the other football programs in the SEC. There is a major talent gap between UK and the upper echelon teams of the SEC.

Best case is what we have seen in recent years...a 10 win season culminating in a trip to the Citrus Bowl. In my opinion, it is misguided thinking to suggest otherwise.

 

[WeWant9]

Cal was the perfect fit when he came in, but was a victim of his own early success. He was a king among UK fans. But he also laid out some of the lofty expectations that has come back to bite him. He was the one talking about catching UCLA, hanging banners, going 40-0, gold standard, etc

When he didn’t realize them and saw they weren’t going happen, he lashed out at the fanbase and we keep hearing how hard it it’s to play here now.

He dug his heels in on being players first and he can’t escape it. We got players refusing to play, transferring out, bolting for any hope of pro ball. He created a system that brought benefits at first, but is ultimately now a monster. He can’t stop it, and refuses to try and adapt.

My ideal scenario for next year is Cal somehow wins a title and rides off into the sunset. He leaves Lex and we all take a much needed break from each other, and down the road we come back to remember the good times. As of now, I’m not sure what Cal’s legacy is even going look like, and if either party really wants to deal with one another. It’s ugly.

 

[know1]

That would have made his record look better for sure. And the fans would have loved it. But the fact remains that he hasn't been doing his job - and not just by wins and losses - for several years now. He needs to go and he should have gone awhile ago when he stopped giving any effort.

 

[docholiday51]

While I agree with your first paragraph...UK football will never sniff an SEC title as long as UGA and Bama are around. Not gonna happen. And that is not even mentioning any of the other football programs in the SEC. There is a major talent gap between UK and the upper echelon teams of the SEC.

Best case is what we have seen in recent years...a 10 win season culminating in a trip to the Citrus Bowl. In my opinion, it is misguided thinking to suggest otherwise.

I get your point but the direction Cal has the program going doesn't give basketball that much hope either. There will be a good Alabama, Arkansas, Auburn or some other team in basketball who puts winning above whatever Cal values most to stand in our way.

 

[Catfan2226]

He created this climate,it's his own doing.The good and bad is of his own doing.He wants fans to bow down during the good and tell him he's the greatest thing since sliced bread BUT he wants to belittle and use sarcastic comments or not even be held accountable for the bad.Im done with him,want his ass gone yesterday.I don't hate him but the game has passed him by and it's time to go thru divorce.Its probably gonna get ugly,lots of ugly...so be it.

 

[know1]

The point where it all could have been avoided was when UK didn't call Cal's bluff on UCLA. At that point, we could have let him leave and gotten a new coach. Or, we wouldn't have given him the ridiculous contract that has handcuffed the program and we could have fired him after the losing season.

Everyone points to the 2015 tournament as the turning point, but it was at the contract extension that things really went bad for our program.

 

[Smashcat]

I don't hate him but the game has passed him by

This.

 

[UKWildcats1987]

Every year there are a half dozen teams that can say, "we could have, maybe should have, won the title this year." That's the nature of the tournament.

In 2010, Kansas -- not Kentucky -- was the overall #1 seed with a line-up packed with EXPERIENCED NBA talent. Lost to Northern Iowa.

In 2011, Ohio State was clear and away the best team -- Kentucky beat them. Kansas had a 30 win team. Duke had a 30 win team. North Carolina was a very strong #2 seed. Kentucky beat them as well, as a #4 seed. Then the Cats' shooting went cold against a team with a super-hot guard (who had an excellent NBA career) and a team with better inside players. Oh for Enes Kanter...

In 2012, North Carolina fans still say they deserved the championship but Kendall Marshall got hurt. I say Bullshit, but it has as much validity as Kentucky fans saying the Cats should win it every time UK has a very good team.

In 2014, Florida under tested coach Billy Donovan beat Kentucky THREE TIMES. They lost in the Final Four. Arizona had a 30-win team and Wichita State was undefeated. Kentucky performed remarkably to make the final game -- in which WCS was out injured and Randle was clearly not 100 percent.

In 2015, there were four teams that were heads and shoulders above the others - Notre Dame, Wisconsin, Duke and Kentucky. The draw put Kentucky on a path to have to play all of the other three to win it. The worst possible match-up for Kentucky was Wisconsin. Yeah, the Cats still should have won, but it was a 4.5 point spread at the tip, not a 20 point spread. Teams lose games like that in the tournament every single year.

In 2017, Kentucky was put in the team with the team that was the clear favorite to win it all -UNC--Cheats. Despite one of the worst refereeing screw jobs in history Kentucky was still i position to take that game to OT - then came a lucky shot off a last second scramble. Tournament heart break. Not unique to Kentucky.

This year, Alabama, Houston, Purdue, Kansas, maybe a few others all could make some specious case that with better luck they should have won the title.

I'd say, taken as a whole, Kentucky probably should have won two or even three titles during Calipari's tenure. Injuries, bad refereeing, bad luck, and if you want to believe it bad coaching hasw so far limited that to one.

That's the nature of a lose and go home tournament. To say Kentucky should have won in 2010, 2011, 2012, 2014, 2015, 2017 is absurd. There were teams -- often multiple teams -- in every single one of those years except 2015 with a greater claim to having fallen short than Kentucky.

People aren't gonna like this but you are right.

On the 2010 loss I looked at who took most of the 3s and am amazed Patterson, Miller, Bledsoe and Dodson shoot as poorly as they did. You play that game 99 more times and I doubt it happens again. Sucks that shooting games like that one and 84 Georgetown happened.

 

[JLoad22]

If 2011 happens, 2012 doesn't IMO as Jones would have went pro had we won in 2011. So that's an either/or situation IMO and I'll glady take 2012 over 2011 as Davis got to enjoy it.

 

[davtay]

In response to the OP's thoughts, I am curious about two different scenarios and if either had happened, would posters/fans feel different from now.

1) Cal and UK win in one of the Final Fours they made (other than '15, 40-0 is untouchable), but every thing the last 3 or so seasons is exactly the same...kneeling, losses, snarky with fans...everything that is complained about on this board...are those that are unhappy with Cal still unhappy?

2) Cal and UK make the FF in '17 with Monk, Fox, Bam but don't win, or make the FF in '19 with OT victory over Auburn, but don't win and the last 3 or so seasons is exactly the same.

In above scenarios, does 1 more FF or 1 more title change the opinion of those who think he is destroying the program?


I'm not interested in snarky comments or insults with each other, just curious if either would have changed anything.

 

[TheBlueMist]

"This all could have been avoided."

You're right. Mitch could have not offered a ridiculous contract, and Cal could have taken the UCLA job. Cal would have left the program on good terms and possibly come back after retiring to be an ambassador for the basketball program. Not that I trust Mitch making a hire, but it's hard to imagine someone doing a worse job than Cal since the lifetime contract.

 

[ukjenning44]

Cal is like the greedy spouse going through a divorce.
Mentally they know it’s over but they don’t want to give up the money.
It’s all about the $$$$ to him.

He’s a gold digging bitch.

 

[ukalum1988]

I know ifs and buts, but let us look at how things could have been viewed differently.

2010-An elite team with super elite players. Yes we shot poorly against WVU but you cannot convince with with Wall, Cousins, Patterson, Bledsoe that we should not have cut down the nets. Yes outside shooting was a weakness, but man we had legit superstars.

2011-path opened up to where we could have won the title.

2012-success, Championship.

2014-again a path opened up. Had all the pieces and a legit stud in Randel.

2015-To me this is the turning point. So much talent and legit superstars. I think the loss destroyed Cal and much of the fanbase. I'll never get over it. Ever. Win this title and much equity is built up.

2017-Three legit superstars. Could have won it.

To me those are the real threats to win the title and maybe should have. But you can't win them all. So lets say we win half, like I seriously think we should have won 2 more. They were there for the taking. Do that and Cal is a legend that has so much equity built up that we would not be where we are. I know not one fan in person who is on Cal's side anymore. Not one. I think short of a Final Four next year and the fanbase is done with him completely. It will be to a level of ugly that no one believed would be happening.

Excellent post. I think the 2017 season was the final turning point into the mediocrity we’re living through today. Since then, there has been a carousel of assistant coaches, the emergence of the transfer portal, Covid-19 (which to be fair was totally out of Cal’s control), the social upheaval of 2020, NIL, and the emergence of player entourages.

The game has changed so much over the last 10-15 years and especially the last 5.

 

[UK90]

"This all could have been avoided."

You're right. Mitch could have not offered a ridiculous contract, and Cal could have taken the UCLA job. Cal would have left the program on good terms and possibly come back after retiring to be an ambassador for the basketball program. Not that I trust Mitch making a hire, but it's hard to imagine someone doing a worse job than Cal since the lifetime contract.

And he didn’t even have to go to UCLA to avoid this mess. If Mitch just would have hung tough and called his bluff, I think Cal likely would’ve come back anyways. Because I suspect he didn’t really want to go to UCLA, he was just using their interest as leverage to squeeze the mother of all contract extensions out of us.

And, boy, did it ever work. Mitch was scared so shitless by that UCLA interview that he immediately signed away everything (including all UK control over the program) with the most outlandishly absurd contract in the history of the sport. Now we’re stuck with him whether we like it or not.

 

[HagginHall1999]

I know ifs and buts, but let us look at how things could have been viewed differently.

2010-An elite team with super elite players. Yes we shot poorly against WVU but you cannot convince with with Wall, Cousins, Patterson, Bledsoe that we should not have cut down the nets. Yes outside shooting was a weakness, but man we had legit superstars.

2011-path opened up to where we could have won the title.

2012-success, Championship.

2014-again a path opened up. Had all the pieces and a legit stud in Randel.

2015-To me this is the turning point. So much talent and legit superstars. I think the loss destroyed Cal and much of the fanbase. I'll never get over it. Ever. Win this title and much equity is built up.

2017-Three legit superstars. Could have won it.

To me those are the real threats to win the title and maybe should have. But you can't win them all. So lets say we win half, like I seriously think we should have won 2 more. They were there for the taking. Do that and Cal is a legend that has so much equity built up that we would not be where we are. I know not one fan in person who is on Cal's side anymore. Not one. I think short of a Final Four next year and the fanbase is done with him completely. It will be to a level of ugly that no one believed would be happening.

Agree wholeheartedly in principle. But to be clear a path didn't "open up" in '11 and '14. We knocked down walls those seasons. Paths opened up in '18 and this year. We tripped before we could even take the shortcut.

Might be me misinterpreting, but in my view '11 and '14 were some gauntlets.

Either way, I'd go so far as to say that even if Cal had won another in '15 or '17 or '19...any of those years, hell even a FF in '19...people would be far less pissed than they are now. You are 100% correct though, Cal had a chance to be a modern GOAT.

 

[ukcatz12]

Don’t underestimate the kneeling backlash

❄️

 

[ukcatz12]

1) Cal and UK win in one of the Final Fours they made (other than '15, 40-0 is untouchable), but every thing the last 3 or so seasons is exactly the same...kneeling, losses, snarky with fans...everything that is complained about on this board...are those that are unhappy with Cal still unhappy?

Yes.

There's a group of fans on this board that want Cal gone more for non-basketball reasons than basketball reasons. And there are posters currently banned who have said as much, hate Calipari on a personal level, and have admitted even if he won multiple titles in a row they would still want him gone.

 

[Cals_Prairie_Dog]

‘15 and ‘17 definitely should have been titles. Those are the two the sting the most, mainly because of the mysterious officiating. Can’t tell me there weren’t outside influences in both games.

 

[TNCatfanforever]

I know ifs and buts, but let us look at how things could have been viewed differently.

2010-An elite team with super elite players. Yes we shot poorly against WVU but you cannot convince with with Wall, Cousins, Patterson, Bledsoe that we should not have cut down the nets. Yes outside shooting was a weakness, but man we had legit superstars.

2011-path opened up to where we could have won the title.

2012-success, Championship.

2014-again a path opened up. Had all the pieces and a legit stud in Randel.

2015-To me this is the turning point. So much talent and legit superstars. I think the loss destroyed Cal and much of the fanbase. I'll never get over it. Ever. Win this title and much equity is built up.

2017-Three legit superstars. Could have won it.

To me those are the real threats to win the title and maybe should have. But you can't win them all. So lets say we win half, like I seriously think we should have won 2 more. They were there for the taking. Do that and Cal is a legend that has so much equity built up that we would not be where we are. I know not one fan in person who is on Cal's side anymore. Not one. I think short of a Final Four next year and the fanbase is done with him completely. It will be to a level of ugly that no one believed would be happening.

Agreed