The size in the trenches: vs USCjr.

[Rhavicc]

Just a thread to compare size (because who doesn't like to do that?)

Kentucky Offensive Line

LT. Swindle, 6'7", 309"
LG. West, 6'4", 309#
C. Toth, 6'5", 310#
RG. Meyers, 6'4", 320#
RT. Asafo-Adjei, 6'5", 325#

South Carolina Defensive Line

DE. Cooper, 6'2", 248#
DT. Stallworth, 6'2" 308#
NT. Dixon Jr., 6'3", 327#
DE. Lewis, 6'3", 264#


South Carolina Offensive Line

LT. Shell, 6'6", 328#
LG. Matulis, 6'5", 293#
C. Knott, 6'4", 270#
RG. Sport, 6'5", 295#
RT. Zandi, 6'9", 314#

Kentucky Defensive Line

DE. Huguenin, 6'4", 282#
NT. Lewis, 6'4", 332#
DT. Meant, 6'4", 302#
----
OLB/DE. Ware, 6'2", 255#

 

[UPSCat4080]

Just a thread to compare size (because who doesn't like to do that?)

Kentucky Offensive Line

LT. Swindle, 6'7", 309"
LG. West, 6'4", 309#
C. Toth, 6'5", 310#
RG. Meyers, 6'4", 320#
RT. Asafo-Adjei, 6'5", 325#

South Carolina Defensive Line

DE. Cooper, 6'2", 248#
DT. Stallworth, 6'2" 308#
NT. Dixon Jr., 6'3", 327#
DE. Lewis, 6'3", 264#


South Carolina Offensive Line

LT. Shell, 6'6", 328#
LG. Matulis, 6'5", 293#
C. Knott, 6'4", 270#
RG. Sport, 6'5", 295#
RT. Zandi, 6'9", 314#

Kentucky Defensive Line

DE. Huguenin, 6'4", 282#
NT. Lewis, 6'4", 332#
DT. Meant, 6'4", 302#
----
OLB/DE. Ware, 6'2", 255#

UK Offensive Line 314.6 average lbs
SC Defensive Line 286.75 average lbs

SC Offensive Line average 300 lbs
UK Defensive Line average 305.3 lbs (with Ware off the line.....292.75 on the line)

Weight isn't everything but on the line it means more than anywhere else. UK has the advantage BIG TIME on the offensive line and slightly on defense.

 

[Rhavicc]

UK Offensive Line 314.6 average lbs
SC Defensive Line 286.75 average lbs

SC Offensive Line average 300 lbs
UK Defensive Line average 305.3 lbs (with Ware off the line.....292.75 on the line)

Weight isn't everything but on the line it means more than anywhere else. UK has the advantage BIG TIME on the offensive line and slightly on defense.

I thought it was a bit eye popping how much bigger our tackles are than their DE's. Our TE's are good blockers as well, so I think that's really, really going to hurt their ability to stop runs off the edges, and their ability to rush the pass from the edges.

Something else that I thought was big, their center on offense weighs 60 pounds less than Melvin Lewis (who is already a very good NT). When Elam (who gave USC a ton of problems up front last season) comes in, he'll outweigh the center by roughly 90 pounds. Very important for the interior defense.

 

[Rhavicc]

Also, for the sake of comparison, UNC's offensive and defensive fronts.

UNC Defensive Line

DE. Gnonkonde, 6'4", 260#
DT. Clarke, 6'5", 315#
DT. Jones, 6'5", 295#
DE. Bart, 6'3", 270#

UNC Offensive Line

LT. Spain, 6'6", 300#
LG. Peterson, 6'5", 300#
C. Crowley, 6'3", 290#
RG. Turner, 6'4", 325#
RT. Heck 6'6", 300#

Kentucky definitely outsizes UNC on both sides of the ball up front.
For North Carolina, only Turner received All-ACC recognition. For UK, Swindle received All-SEC recognition, and Toth receives a ton of national attention. I'm very confident in our team's ability to get the ball moving well against South Carolina.

 

[mark0202]

Rhavicc thanks for putting that info together. I often wondered about our size differences as related to other teams. In the past UK, has always been on the lesser end of the scale. Although size, over the length of a game can ware on an opposing team. Early on, just as important to that size, technique and the athletic ability to move all that size around. Thanks again for the info…it is a good read.

 

[UKCatnNC]

We are definitely starting to have the "SEC look"! Go Cats!!

 

[hmt5000]

You would have to think Lewis and Elam will wear their center down

 

[TravellersGhost]

It all depends on what you intend to do with the OL (including your C, #70 in the link):

 

[RoosterBooster1]

SC DL rotates 4-5 DT's all above 300. GC's not big at DE though outside of Lewis who is the right size. Sometimes smaller DE's do well (Vic Beasley from Clemson last year), sometimes not.

 

[Rhavicc]

SC DL rotates 4-5 DT's all above 300. GC's not big at DE though outside of Lewis who is the right size. Sometimes smaller DE's do well (Vic Beasley from Clemson last ye

Safe to say that neither of these defensive ends are Vic Beasley, wouldn't you agree? I think you would lol.

Consider that for every scheme that the offensive line uses, the defensive line uses one as well. Is the d-line going to run a 1 gap or a 2 gap? Are they going to be a 1 technique, 3 technique, or a 5 technique on certain plays? You can almost figure that on most plays, Lewis is going to be a 2 gap 1 technique, but on a 3-4 defensive front (which Kentucky primarily uses), defensive linemen assignments can change much more than they can in a 4-3 (which North Carolina primarily uses). In a 4-3, the gaps you control, and the techniques that you line up at will all be pretty limited. Most of the time in a 4-3, one defensive tackle will be a 1 gap, 3 technique (other words, they're going to attack one gap on the outside shoulders of the offensive guards, and apply pressure to the ball), the other defensive tackle will be a 1 gap, 1 technique, and most of the time, the defensive ends will try being 1 gap, 5 techniques (attack the outside shoulder of the offensive tackle, and rush the passer [or ball carrier] while keeping containment on both sides of the tackle after the pocket forms). It's set up this way to bring most of the pressure from the defensive line.
In a 3-4 though, you'll see defensive linemen shifting more, lining up at different techniques, and attacking the 2 gap more often than not (to draw double-teams and open gaps up for the linebackers to make plays in), although on some plays, linemen will play 1 gap to apply a little unexpected pressure from that spot.
The way that North Carolina attacked this play would be different than how Kentucky would have, by nature of the two packages' differences. How much different it would be depends on how the 2 defensive coordinators view certain things, and how the USC offensive line could/should react will depend accordingly.

 

[MrHotDice]

Offense attacks but defense reacts. Speed, quickness, and lateral movement on defense is more important than size and weight.

 

[jeffygray]

Offense attacks but defense reacts. Speed, quickness, and lateral movement on defense is more important than size and weight.

I agree with you HD, but there is a fine line between being quick but blown off the line and being to big to react. It takes the total package to compete in the S.E.C.

 

[*Bleedingblue*]

How big was UL-L's lines? I thought they were huge on tv and moved extremely well.

 

[Rhavicc]

Offense attacks but defense reacts. Speed, quickness, and lateral movement on defense is more important than size and weight.

Age old argument; size vs speed. Depends on what you're trying to do. Against the run, which is going to be most of South Carolina's offense, size up the middle matters a lot. Size matters more in the box, speed matters more on the perimeter.
Now, that goes without saying... You need to have quick defensive tackles to read, react, and make plays. You need big, strong DB's to match up with big, strong WR's. You need the best of both worlds when it comes to linebackers.

 

[3kidsandme]

Uks interior line a strength the people saying are dts got no push are basing this off a very little football knowledge. Ull top back averaged 3.4 ypc he got nothing up the middl. 80 percent of ull yardage on the ground came aging back ups who were playing there first collegiate game. If uk offense runs a more ball control offense which they will against usc the back ups will only play a few snaps compared to the 30 or so we had to play them in the second half.

 

[MrHotDice]

Age old argument; size vs speed. Depends on what you're trying to do. Against the run, which is going to be most of South Carolina's offense, size up the middle matters a lot. Size matters more in the box, speed matters more on the perimeter.
Now, that goes without saying... You need to have quick defensive tackles to read, react, and make plays. You need big, strong DB's to match up with big, strong WR's. You need the best of both worlds when it comes to linebackers.

This is just my opinion but teams that play a 3-4 defense must have LB that are hole fillers since the OL always has an angle when blocking the front 3. This is one of the reasons l hate the 3-4. At the point of attack, UK is always outmanned.

 

[crazyqx83]

It all depends on what you intend to do with the OL (including your C, #70 in the link):

View embedded media

Thanks for posting a video of a pretty blatant uncalled hold on the edge.

Note to WR: Be sure to shove your defender down when he finally starts to pull away with his momentum after you hold them for 5 seconds. It makes it look like a pancake.

 

[Rhavicc]

UL-Lafayette Offensive Line:

LT. Grant Horst 6-5 281 So.
LG. Mykhael Quave 6-5 294 Sr.
C. Eddie Gordon 6-1 320 Jr.
RG. Donovan Williams 6-3 312 Sr.
RT. Octravian Anderson 6-4 295 Sr.

UL-Lafayette Defensive Line:

DE. Blain Winston 6-4 300 So.
DT. Taboris Lee 6-2 284 So.
NT. Karmichael Dunbar 6-2 317 Jr.
NT2. Jacoby Briscoe 6-3 325 Jr.



Mykhael Quave will see time in the NFL. That is one very, very good OG, and NFL scouts think so as well. NFL draft scout ranks him as the #22 offensive guard in the country. Directly next to him is one very large center. When you have a center almost as big as a nose tackle, it does cut into the effectiveness of a nose tackle in the 3-4 (being that they do have 2 gap responsibilities on almost every play). That offensive line had size, veteran leaders, and NFL talent on it. People don't like to hear that because it's a team out of the Sun Belt, but they have talent up front, which is why Elijah McGuire gets as much attention as he does.

That said, in the first 2 quarters, UK held ULL to 84 rushing yards in 23 carries. It was in the 2nd half where they did a lot of damage. Came out and ran it 24 times for 163 yards. Most of that was due to the defense being on the field for 47 plays in the first half. For comparison, the offense was only on the field for 28 plays in the first half.

Kentucky's first half defense was very good. Let's use Ole Miss as an example.
First, the rushing defense.

In the first half, Kentucky held UL-Lafayette to 7 first downs on the ground, 2 runs for over 10+ yards, but 0 runs for 20+ yards (the long in that half was for 13 yards).

In Ole Miss' game (which they won 76-3, against a significantly weaker UT-Martin), they allowed 4 first downs on the ground, 3 runs for 10+ yards, 1 for 20+ yards in the first half.

Now the passing defense:

For the entire game, Kentucky held UL-Lafayette to 9 first downs through the air, 3 for 15+ yards, 1 for 25+ yards, with a long of 43 yards, while allowing 0 touchdowns, getting 2 INT's, and forcing a fumble off of the only 15+ yard reception that ULL had in the first half.

For the entire game, Ole Miss held UT-Martin to 7 first downs through the air, 3 for 15+ yards, 1 for 25+ yards, with a long of 64 yards, while allowing 0 touchdowns, and getting 1 INT.

Things that stand out to me:
Despite ULL being a much, much, much better team than UT-Martin, Kentucky appeared to have as good of a passing defense against ULL, as Ole Miss against a team like UT-Martin. I would argue that I would definitely give up 2 extra first downs for the extra interception, and the forced fumble after one of those first downs, easily. I'm not concerned about the pass defense at all.

Kentucky's first half rushing defense was very good. BUT, Ole Miss stepped it up in the 2nd half on the rush defense, Kentucky slacked off, and ULL pounded it on the ground.
Kentucky held ULL to 84 rushing yards in the first half, Ole Miss held UT-Martin to 94 rushing yards. Only difference, Ole Miss didn't give up the TD there, UK did.

Overall though, I have no complaints with UK's first half run defense outside of maybe 2 plays. I have no complaints with UK's pass defense throughout the entire game. The coaches said it was a simple fix, and they believe they already have it shored up. I tend to agree. Usually, failing to do the simple things is what hurts you the most. The defense before we stopped doing those simple things though, it was very, very good. I'm confident in our defense to look much better in week 2.

 

[Old_Red]

I thought it was a bit eye popping how much bigger our tackles are than their DE's. Our TE's are good blockers as well, so I think that's really, really going to hurt their ability to stop runs off the edges, and their ability to rush the pass from the edges.

Something else that I thought was big, their center on offense weighs 60 pounds less than Melvin Lewis (who is already a very good NT). When Elam (who gave USC a ton of problems up front last season) comes in, he'll outweigh the center by roughly 90 pounds. Very important for the interior defense.

I'd be happier about that if we had rocked UL Lafayette.

 

[brianpoe]

Against the run, which is going to be most of South Carolina's offense, size up the middle matters a lot. Size matters more in the box, speed matters more on the perimeter.

I think that is exactly what he is trying to say, their center was able to get to the second level and spring that run, he looked very mobile. Some of the best centers ever were not humongous, Dermontti was never 290 his entire career.

I understand your point going against Elam, but if they pull their interior guys a ton then it won't matter.

Thanks for posting a video of a pretty blatant uncalled hold on the edge.

Really? I just watched it 4 times and I guess I am blind. That wasn't blatant at all.. Does your ex live in SC or something brother? geez

 

[Rhavicc]

I'd be happier about that if we had rocked UL Lafayette.

Guess you missed the post where I showed the size of the Lafayette line, and touched on the fact that an NFL draft site has Quave (who I've always been high on) as the #22 OG in the country? They do have studs on their line, and they have a massive center (which does negate some effectiveness of Lewis. Even then though, Lewis had 9 tackles going against a 320# center. I imagine that he's going to do better against a 260# center.

 

[brianpoe]

Guess you missed the post where I showed the size of the Lafayette line, and touched on the fact that an NFL draft site has Quave (who I've always been high on) as the #22 OG in the country? They do have studs on their line, and they have a massive center (which does negate some effectiveness of Lewis. Even then though, Lewis had 9 tackles going against a 320# center. I imagine that he's going to do better against a 260# center.

Assuming they rush up the gut, don't you think we will see a bunch of outside runs and read options?

 

[sluggercatfan]

Just a thread to compare size (because who doesn't like to do that?)

Kentucky Offensive Line

LT. Swindle, 6'7", 309"
LG. West, 6'4", 309#
C. Toth, 6'5", 310#
RG. Meyers, 6'4", 320#
RT. Asafo-Adjei, 6'5", 325#

South Carolina Defensive Line

DE. Cooper, 6'2", 248#
DT. Stallworth, 6'2" 308#
NT. Dixon Jr., 6'3", 327#
DE. Lewis, 6'3", 264#


South Carolina Offensive Line

LT. Shell, 6'6", 328#
LG. Matulis, 6'5", 293#
C. Knott, 6'4", 270#
RG. Sport, 6'5", 295#
RT. Zandi, 6'9", 314#

Kentucky Defensive Line

DE. Huguenin, 6'4", 282#
NT. Lewis, 6'4", 332#
DT. Meant, 6'4", 302#
----
OLB/DE. Ware, 6'2", 255#

Not overly excited about UK's oline... think A-A and Meyers have bright futures, but the others are big , but slow and not nearly athletic enough

 

[*Bleedingblue*]

I'm interested to see how their center is going to be during the 4th? With Elam backing up Lewis he's gonna be gassed by the end of the 3rd. That's a lot of weight to block all night, they might have to run the wildcat at this point if their line starts getting some penetration into their backfield.

 

[Rhavicc]

Not overly excited about UK's oline... think A-A and Meyers have bright futures, but the others are big , but slow and not nearly athletic enough

Right, like I said, we only have one who is an All-SEC tackle, and one of the best centers in the country. That's only, I dunno, 2 of our 5 o-line? With you naming 2 other offensive linemen? There's a reason that Swindle was moved to the other side of the line. DE's on that end are often power ends, not rush ends, so he won't have to face many ends with a ridiculous first step, if any. Solves the false start issues, and he's going against somebody with similar athleticism.
Not sure what there isn't to like about Toth either. You're nitpicking.

 

[Rhavicc]

Assuming they rush up the gut, don't you think we will see a bunch of outside runs and read options?

Yeah, I do, but the size discrepancy on the inside may allow you to focus some of your defense to the outside of the tackles a bit.

 

[RoosterBooster1]

Guess you missed the post where I showed the size of the Lafayette line, and touched on the fact that an NFL draft site has Quave (who I've always been high on) as the #22 OG in the country? They do have studs on their line, and they have a massive center (which does negate some effectiveness of Lewis. Even then though, Lewis had 9 tackles going against a 320# center. I imagine that he's going to do better against a 260# center.

270 lb. center, whose backup is 320.

 

[Rhavicc]

270 lb. center, whose backup is 320.

320 pound center, who plays behind a 270 lb. center. See what I did there?

 

[sluggercatfan]

Right, like I said, we only have one who is an All-SEC tackle, and one of the best centers in the country. That's only, I dunno, 2 of our 5 o-line? With you naming 2 other offensive linemen? There's a reason that Swindle was moved to the other side of the line. DE's on that end are often power ends, not rush ends, so he won't have to face many ends with a ridiculous first step, if any. Solves the false start issues, and he's going against somebody with similar athleticism.
Not sure what there isn't to like about Toth either. You're nitpicking.

I don't think I'm nitpicking at all... Toth may be better than I'm giving him credit for, but the others may have elite looking size , but are slow afoot and not nearly quick enough to match up with elite sec tackles who are big AND fast... it's a gene thing

 

[Rhavicc]

I don't think I'm nitpicking at all... Toth may be better than I'm giving him credit for, but the others may have elite looking size , but are slow afoot and not nearly quick enough to match up with elite sec tackles who are big AND fast... it's a gene thing

Then why would the NFL scouts even look at him? They obviously think he's athletic enough to play tackle in the NFL. Give it a rest man. You're nitpicking.

You need to stop and think about it for a minute. He played tackle on the other end last season, going against the more athletic pass rushers, and he obviously looked the part enough to be considered an All-SEC tackle going into this season. He has now switched to the other end, where he's often going to be lined up against DE's that are far less athletic than what he seen last season. He should do better. He doesn't have mind-blowing athleticism, but you're grasping for straws here.
I also want to remind you that it may be the SEC, but the defensive tackles are hardly 350# of muscle, running 4.6 forties and matching wide receivers' quickness.

 

[Grumpyolddawg]

Then why would the NFL scouts even look at him? They obviously think he's athletic enough to play tackle in the NFL. Give it a rest man. You're nitpicking.

You need to stop and think about it for a minute. He played tackle on the other end last season, going against the more athletic pass rushers, and he obviously looked the part enough to be considered an All-SEC tackle going into this season. He has now switched to the other end, where he's often going to be lined up against DE's that are far less athletic than what he seen last season. He should do better. He doesn't have mind-blowing athleticism, but you're grasping for straws here.
I also want to remind you that it may be the SEC, but the defensive tackles are hardly 350# of muscle, running 4.6 forties and matching wide receivers' quickness.

Your center is a fine player, one of the best C in the SEC, but are you saying Swindle is all SEC caliber?

 

[Rhavicc]

Your center is a fine player, one of the best C in the SEC, but are you saying Swindle is all SEC caliber?

I'm saying that he received All-SEC honors lol.

 

[Grumpyolddawg]

I'm saying that he received All-SEC honors lol.

When, he wasn't on any of the preseason teams either the coaches who went name 3 teams or ESPN's, nor was he on the team last year. He may turn out fine, but try to be a little more objective, he isn't a top 5 LT in the SEC

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

I thought it was a bit eye popping how much bigger our tackles are than their DE's. Our TE's are good blockers as well, so I think that's really, really going to hurt their ability to stop runs off the edges, and their ability to rush the pass from the edges.

Something else that I thought was big, their center on offense weighs 60 pounds less than Melvin Lewis (who is already a very good NT). When Elam (who gave USC a ton of problems up front last season) comes in, he'll outweigh the center by roughly 90 pounds. Very important for the interior defense.

Their center should be in the quarterbacks lap all day. I'm not the best football person in the world, but if we dominate their center like that weight difference should allow, how much havoc would shooting an ILB in that gap cause them? Even on run plays it seems like it would be very disruptive.

 

[RoosterBooster1]

SC was big enough in the trenches to knock off many highly rated teams at home and on the road during the Spurrier era. This year's lines no different, if you were wondering. Not many teams, including top ranked Bama have gone into WB Stadium in the past 5 years and walked out with a victory, and many ranked opponents have lost to SC on their home field in that stretch, suspect the SC lines will be every bit what ULL had to offer and more.

 

[RoosterBooster1]

kY's last victory at WB Stadium was what, 16 years ago? 2-13 in between?

 

[GoBigBlue37]

kY's last victory at WB Stadium was what, 16 years ago? 2-13 in between?

But I bet you that SOS finds it hard to swallow that any of his teams have lost to lowly UK, and that has only happened while at USC!

 

[*Bleedingblue*]

It was a good while back, think in 98??? Somewhere around their. That was back when your all's program was comparable to ours.

 

[optimus-blue]

Swindle is better than Miller in my opinion and Miller made practice squad for the Browns which is pretty good for undrafted OL.

 

[Rhavicc]

SC was big enough in the trenches to knock off many highly rated teams at home and on the road during the Spurrier era. This year's lines no different, if you were wondering. Not many teams, including top ranked Bama have gone into WB Stadium in the past 5 years and walked out with a victory, and many ranked opponents have lost to SC on their home field in that stretch, suspect the SC lines will be every bit what ULL had to offer and more.

ULL had experience on their line to offer, where is yours? You have one guy on that offensive line that has more starts than the rest of your offensive line combined. Hard to sell that short in the trenches.
Also, this past season (and the previous game) hasn't appeared to look anything like the typical USC teams over the previous few years (not very mind boggling, considering the loss of Jadaveon Clowney). I think it's important that you all don't confuse those teams with the most recent teams.