Should Cason Wallace start at PG over Sahvir Wheeler?

[LockedonUk]

Just taking a look at some numbers and thought I'd share them and ask this question to y'all. I see a lot of love and hate for Wheeler online so I figured I'd see what you guys think about this:

All stats can be found at Hoop-Math, KenPom ($), and Sports Reference.

Some Sahvir Wheeler stats:

2021 eFG: 47.1%
% of shots at the rim: 41.2%
FG% at the rim: 63.4% (2nd worst on the team behind Davion Mintz)
FT%: 78.0%


2022 eFG: 44.0%
% of shots at the rim: 41.8%
FG% at the rim: 53.6%
FT%: 59.1%

Cason Wallace stats:

2022 eFG: 64.7%
% of shots at the rim: 20.6%
FG% at the rim: 78.6% (3rd on the team, Better than Tshiebwe)
FT%: 57.1%
3PT%: 51.6%

Obviously a small sample size for Wallace. His eFG% is sure to go down - there's no way he finishes above 50% 3PT either. But so far, he's looked like the better guard, and has the second-best assist rate on the team behind Wheeler - has also been more efficient as a scorer.

What do you guys think? Should Cason Wallace start at PG over Sahvir Wheeler?

Will drop my thoughts here now that everyone has had a chance to give their opinion:

No agenda here - just trying to figure out what fans think. First thing I talk about on the EP I discuss this is Wheeler's ability to distribute the basketball and maintain the pace of the game. It's too valuable to give up. It's definitely too valuable to take out of a starting role. Seniority and talent outside of scoring is what should keep him in the startling lineup.

Just was scrolling through some numbers and figured I'd share them because I genuinely don't have a great grip on what the fanbase thinks of him and I thought it would spark good conversation. The only in person conversations I've had about him have been with fans saying they hate him. I defended him all last season.

 

[WeWant9]

Yes

 

[Fox2monk]

I think they should play together more but I’d prefer having Wallace in at the end of games when Cal decides to Rock Fight.

 

[Gromcat]

It’s hard to understand how anyone could, at this point, argue in favor of wheeler running point with Wallace on this roster.

Most of us said it before the season started. Wheeler is a role guy with a great skill that can help when it’s needed. He shouldn’t be running the team and he shouldn’t be getting most minutes anywhere let alone PG. And I don’t need a statistic to know it, I watch the games.

 

[JonathanW]

I like Wallace, A LOT. But he does struggle some with pressure. So while I want him as the primary PG by the end of the year, I think it is a case where we give him the keys to the car a bit more week by week, rather than giving him the keys and leaving town for the weekend right off the bat. So I think we need to gradually get there, although, by Jan I would like to see Wheeler down to say 25mpg, and by Feb down to 15-20.

Wheeler isn't all bad. He does create pressure on ballhandler, and it's hard to pressure us with him in.

The bad, right now (this had better change), want the ball in neither of their hands late in a game where other team may want to foul.

 

[kybassfan]

Funny how a poll on point guards doesn’t include assists. Doesn’t include turn overs. Agenda much?

 

[storm1507]

I would love to see the stats for each while playing together vs only one of them on the floor.

 

[Rideordiewildcat]

Yes! No more minime.

 

[cathouse]

It really doesn't matter at this point.
Neither Wheeler nor Wallace are the "complete" PG that Cal HAS TO HAVE to be successful with his " half court offense."

Both have individual weaknesses in their game that other decent teams will continue to exploit.

These flaws get magnified at tournament time when coaches actually prepare to attack the opponents weaknesses.

 

[true blue1]

Absolutely

 

[HerrosHeroes]

Nope
Our best lineup is what Cal has been putting on the floor and it has resulted in back to back dubs v Meeeeechigan and the Brainiacs.

 

[UK90]

Nope
Our best lineup is what Cal has been putting on the floor and it has resulted in back to back dubs v Meeeeechigan and the Brainiacs.

Well, Lord knows the measure of basketball greatness has always been best determined by how a team does against the Yale brainiacs.

 

[KMKAT]

Well, Lord knows the measure of basketball greatness has always been best determined by how a team does against the Yale brainiacs.

Without their lead brainiac as well.

 

[bucsrule8872]

Funny how a poll on point guards doesn’t include assists. Doesn’t include turn overs. Agenda much?

To be fair:

Wheeler- 6.5 apg, 1.9 to.
Wallace- 4.2 apg, 2.0 to.

But also Wallace is averaging twice as many steals. Also an important stat for a PG.

 

[bucsrule8872]

Give the ball to Wallace and let him learn to play with the ball at this level. He needs that experience. Wheeler is already experienced. Let’s find out what we have in Wallace at PG. We already know what Wheeler can do.

 

[ruppcat]

Just taking a look at some numbers and thought I'd share them and ask this question to y'all. I see a lot of love and hate for Wheeler online so I figured I'd see what you guys think about this:

All stats can be found at Hoop-Math, KenPom ($), and Sports Reference.

Some Sahvir Wheeler stats:

2021 eFG: 47.1%
% of shots at the rim: 41.2%
FG% at the rim: 63.4% (2nd worst on the team behind Davion Mintz)
FT%: 78.0%


2022 eFG: 44.0%
% of shots at the rim: 41.8%
FG% at the rim: 53.6%
FT%: 59.1%

Cason Wallace stats:

2022 eFG: 64.7%
% of shots at the rim: 20.6%
FG% at the rim: 78.6% (3rd on the team, Better than Tshiebwe)
FT%: 57.1%
3PT%: 51.6%

Obviously a small sample size for Wallace. His eFG% is sure to go down - there's no way he finishes above 50% 3PT either. But so far, he's looked like the better guard, and has the second-best assist rate on the team behind Wheeler - has also been more efficient as a scorer.

What do you guys think? Should Cason Wallace start at PG over Sahvir Wheeler?

both suck at FTs. a key item needed for a PG.

 

[Cobb4uk]

No

Just taking a look at some numbers and thought I'd share them and ask this question to y'all. I see a lot of love and hate for Wheeler online so I figured I'd see what you guys think about this:

All stats can be found at Hoop-Math, KenPom ($), and Sports Reference.

Some Sahvir Wheeler stats:

2021 eFG: 47.1%
% of shots at the rim: 41.2%
FG% at the rim: 63.4% (2nd worst on the team behind Davion Mintz)
FT%: 78.0%


2022 eFG: 44.0%
% of shots at the rim: 41.8%
FG% at the rim: 53.6%
FT%: 59.1%

Cason Wallace stats:

2022 eFG: 64.7%
% of shots at the rim: 20.6%
FG% at the rim: 78.6% (3rd on the team, Better than Tshiebwe)
FT%: 57.1%
3PT%: 51.6%

Obviously a small sample size for Wallace. His eFG% is sure to go down - there's no way he finishes above 50% 3PT either. But so far, he's looked like the better guard, and has the second-best assist rate on the team behind Wheeler - has also been more efficient as a scorer.

What do you guys think? Should Cason Wallace start at PG over Sahvir Wheeler?

No, too much responsibility on a freshmen to lead the team. The pressure would affect most of the areas he's so good at. He needs to play relaxed to be his best, also his legs and conditioning, as a freshman, would be a area of concern. High Schoolers coming in aren't used to the amount of games and the rigors of college basketball, that's why several look bad in the tournaments. As a sophomore I would agree, unfortunatelybwe'll never see him after this year in a UK uniform.

 

[IL Wildcat]

Funny how a poll on point guards doesn’t include assists. Doesn’t include turn overs. Agenda much?

I was wondering if anyone was going to notice. The assist and turnover stats don't fit the agenda, because Wheeler's are clearly superior. Jonathan above mentioned the other key issue, which is that Wallace doesn't handle ball pressure well. He also struggles getting dribble penetration and creating for others. I know nobody here will admit it. I don't know why I waste my breath here. It's like the entire board is intentionally blind to anything Wheeler does well because he frustrates fans with some of the plays he makes or doesn't make and because of his lack of shooting skill, which is undeniable.

Wallace needs to be playing the 2 primarily and the point when Wheeler goes out. He needs to be catching and shooting threes (as the best shooter on the team) and he needs to be coming off and around screens into the lane to score. This is what he does best. He's not a pure point. He's a combo guard and a very good one, but he's not a pure point guard. I can only assume some can't see this because they just refuse to see it.

 

[UKBB4Ever]

Start Wallace. Trade Wheeler.

 

[mcnicKY91]

I was wondering if anyone was going to notice. The assist and turnover stats don't fit the agenda, because Wheeler's are clearly superior. Jonathan above mentioned the other key issue, which is that Wallace doesn't handle ball pressure well. He also struggles getting dribble penetration and creating for others. I know nobody here will admit it. I don't know why I waste my breath here. It's like the entire board is intentionally blind to anything Wheeler does well because he frustrates fans with some of the plays he makes or doesn't make and because of his lack of shooting skill, which is undeniable.

Wallace needs to be playing the 2 primarily and the point when Wheeler goes out. He needs to be catching and shooting threes (as the best shooter on the team) and he needs to be coming off and around screens into the lane to score. This is what he does best. He's not a pure point. He's a combo guard and a very good one, but he's not a pure point guard. I can only assume some can't see this because they just refuse to see it.

Let's be real for a sec...any offense that UK/Cal runs where Wheeler plays more than 20-25 min and has him shooting over 5 shots a game will inevitably lead to the another early March exit.

Cason Wallace is a likely top 10 NBA pick, and especially early in the season when we are playing a bunch of directional schools, he should be playing the majority of minutes at PG, as that will clearly pay huge dividends down the stretch of the season. He needs to develop. While he will take some lumps along the way, the upside is ridiculously high when it comes to his production in March, in comparison to what Wheeler could ever bring.

I am not blinded by hate when it comes to Wheeler, or blinded by some infatuation with Wallace. I am blinded by the fact that I enjoy winning, especially in March, something the Cats haven't done since 2019. Wheeler will NOT get us to where us fans want to go. Wallace will, and needs to be getting these minutes. Pure insanity to want Wheeler playing 30-35 min a game.

 

[jjsomer]

To be fair:

Wheeler- 6.5 apg, 1.9 to.
Wallace- 4.2 apg, 2.0 to.

But also Wallace is averaging twice as many steals. Also an important stat for a PG.

There has to be a stat somewhere about assists and turnovers compared to minutes handling the ball. I would imagine Wheeler would have much more opportunity to assist than any other player on the team. The flip side is he also has more opportunity to turn the ball over.

 

[LineSkiCat14]

I kind of dont hate Wheeler at the #1 and Wallace at the #2.. provided that the #3 can hit shots (Reeves) AND that both Wheeler and Wallace continue to improve. For instance, Wheeler needs to watch those drives into no mans land.

But towards the end, we probably need Wallace to continue to develop and be a reliable starting PG come march.

 

[ck-2]

Yes.

 

[Rupp'sRunt]

I was wondering if anyone was going to notice. The assist and turnover stats don't fit the agenda, because Wheeler's are clearly superior. Jonathan above mentioned the other key issue, which is that Wallace doesn't handle ball pressure well. He also struggles getting dribble penetration and creating for others. I know nobody here will admit it. I don't know why I waste my breath here. It's like the entire board is intentionally blind to anything Wheeler does well because he frustrates fans with some of the plays he makes or doesn't make and because of his lack of shooting skill, which is undeniable.

Wallace needs to be playing the 2 primarily and the point when Wheeler goes out. He needs to be catching and shooting threes (as the best shooter on the team) and he needs to be coming off and around screens into the lane to score. This is what he does best. He's not a pure point. He's a combo guard and a very good one, but he's not a pure point guard. I can only assume some can't see this because they just refuse to see it.

For someone who wants the fan base to come together….. your takes are something else

 

[Gromcat]

I was wondering if anyone was going to notice. The assist and turnover stats don't fit the agenda, because Wheeler's are clearly superior. Jonathan above mentioned the other key issue, which is that Wallace doesn't handle ball pressure well. He also struggles getting dribble penetration and creating for others. I know nobody here will admit it. I don't know why I waste my breath here. It's like the entire board is intentionally blind to anything Wheeler does well because he frustrates fans with some of the plays he makes or doesn't make and because of his lack of shooting skill, which is undeniable.

Wallace needs to be playing the 2 primarily and the point when Wheeler goes out. He needs to be catching and shooting threes (as the best shooter on the team) and he needs to be coming off and around screens into the lane to score. This is what he does best. He's not a pure point. He's a combo guard and a very good one, but he's not a pure point guard. I can only assume some can't see this because they just refuse to see it.

It’s funny watching you say this when it’s nearly a consensus now that Wheeler doesn’t need to be the primary point guard. Also what about steals? A very important stat for a guard.

You went all in on Calipari’s choice simply because that was Calipari’s choice. It hasn’t worked out and you are content on being obtuse on this IL. I just don’t see why you want to choose this as a mountain to die on?

Wheeler is not the guy you want in this role. It’s not debatable. It’s as clear of a fact as we’ve seen on any of our teams. And if he’s running point in the tournament we are going home.

Honestly I thought you understood basketball a little better then this. I really don’t think you fully understand the game at this point. It’s a totally ridiculous opinion to want Wheeler in the position you want him in. It’s not even worth arguing anymore.

 

[Wildcats1st]

I think they should play together more but I’d prefer having Wallace in at the end of games when Cal decides to Rock Fight.

Terrible take. When wheeler is in he completely eliminates Wallace as a threat and you cant play wheeler off the ball. Wheeler does not like to give up the ball period but least likely to give it to Wallace. No this split the baby stuff is stupid. Wheeler is 10 mpg max. Wallace running the show the sky is the limit. Wheeler running it is a first round out. We’ve seen this movie too much. But I’m tired with the “both at same time” garbage. That only to appease wheeler

 

[Jmeeks54thebest]

Funny how a poll on point guards doesn’t include assists. Doesn’t include turn overs. Agenda much?

Why would a UK fan have an agenda against Wheeler in favor of Wallace?

I could see why the family and close friends of each player would have an agenda for one or the other, but all UK fans want is the best players on the court in order to win games.

I don’t understand why you view your fellow fans so negatively. And what I really don’t get is why you would want to associate with folks you think so lowly of.

 

[Gromcat]

Terrible take. When wheeler is in he completely eliminates Wallace as a threat and you cant play wheeler off the ball. Wheeler does not like to give up the ball period but least likely to give it to Wallace. No this split the baby stuff is stupid. Wheeler is 10 mpg max. Wallace running the show the sky is the limit. Wheeler running it is a first round out. We’ve seen this movie too much. But I’m tired with the “both at same time” garbage. That only to appease wheeler

Wheeler should play to give Wallace breathers and if we want to push tempo with leads. You could play him more if Wallace is off in certain games. That’s it.

Wheeler is a role player. He’s not good enough to command our team in battle.

 

[mcwildcats04]

I like Wallace, A LOT. But he does struggle some with pressure. So while I want him as the primary PG by the end of the year, I think it is a case where we give him the keys to the car a bit more week by week, rather than giving him the keys and leaving town for the weekend right off the bat. So I think we need to gradually get there, although, by Jan I would like to see Wheeler down to say 25mpg, and by Feb down to 15-20.

Wheeler isn't all bad. He does create pressure on ballhandler, and it's hard to pressure us with him in.

The bad, right now (this had better change), want the ball in neither of their hands late in a game where other team may want to foul.

I do agree with this. Wheeler has a role. I like him as the primary facilitator (not shooter unless it's a layup!) early in the shot clock. But, if he can't get us a good shot early in the shot clock, would like to see him defer more to Wallace and let Wallace have the ball in his hands towards the end of the shot clock.

 

[Gromcat]

Why would a UK fan have an agenda against Wheeler in favor of Wallace?

I could see why the family and close friends of each player would have an agenda for one or the other, but all UK fans want is the best players on the court in order to win games.

I don’t understand why you view your fellow fans so negatively. And what I really don’t get is why you would want to associate with folks you think so lowly of.

They’re the Cal cult and that’s all this is about to them. If wheeler was who we needed I’d be all in n. If Calipari was a winner I’d be all in LIKE ALL OF US WERE Until he began to LOSE!

This isn’t hard. You’ve got Calipari apologist and UK fans. It’s not hard to tell the difference. Their tales are just downright bad. Be a UK fan and it’s easy to call it like it is. Be a fan of a man and you’ll be all over the place and make the worst excuses.

 

[Gromcat]

I do agree with this. Wheeler has a role. I like him as the primary facilitator (not shooter unless it's a layup!) early in the shot clock. But, if he can't get us a good shot early in the shot clock, would like to see him defer more to Wallace and let Wallace have the ball in his hands towards the end of the shot clock.

Or just let Wallace be the point guard and spell him with Wheeler.

Like it’s always done. What is with this wheeler is a backup pure and simple.

 

[Fox2monk]

I kind of dont hate Wheeler at the #1 and Wallace at the #2.. provided that the #3 can hit shots (Reeves) AND that both Wheeler and Wallace continue to improve. For instance, Wheeler needs to watch those drives into no mans land.

But towards the end, we probably need Wallace to continue to develop and be a reliable starting PG come march.

That’s my thoughts as well, our best team would involve them and a shooter at the 3 and someone who makes shots at the 4 with Oscar, we need either CJ to step up so we go small or Livingston to develop/Toppin to play to his potential.

 

[Jmeeks54thebest]

I was wondering if anyone was going to notice. The assist and turnover stats don't fit the agenda, because Wheeler's are clearly superior. Jonathan above mentioned the other key issue, which is that Wallace doesn't handle ball pressure well. He also struggles getting dribble penetration and creating for others. I know nobody here will admit it. I don't know why I waste my breath here. It's like the entire board is intentionally blind to anything Wheeler does well because he frustrates fans with some of the plays he makes or doesn't make and because of his lack of shooting skill, which is undeniable.

Wallace needs to be playing the 2 primarily and the point when Wheeler goes out. He needs to be catching and shooting threes (as the best shooter on the team) and he needs to be coming off and around screens into the lane to score. This is what he does best. He's not a pure point. He's a combo guard and a very good one, but he's not a pure point guard. I can only assume some can't see this because they just refuse to see it.

Well most of who want Wallace to start at the 1 still want Wheeler in a sizable role coming off the bench. It’s not like we want Wheeler as a victory cigar. A lot of us, myself included, feel Wheeler would be better coming off the bench to push the tempo as a spark plug. It might even motivate Wheeler to improve his play (if his poorer play this season is due to motivation, it may not be).

Also, I think it would be a huge benefit to Wallace getting to start in order to get him more experience before March. And if you really think Wheeler is the better starter, would you conceded that giving Wallace the starter role and more minutes would at least give us a more experienced second line lead guard come tourney time? Last season Wheeler was injury prone (primarily due to him running into screens) and having Wallace more comfortable being in that role would really behove this team if those issues come back.

 

[mcwildcats04]

Or just let Wallace be the point guard and spell him with Wheeler.

Like it’s always done. What is with this wheeler is a backup pure and simple.

I just think, like most things in life, it's not really that simple. Wheeler does some things quite well. His speed and ability to attack the defense are a plus. It can often lead to easy shots for us early in the shot clock on offense. It's when it doesn't, that he can become a liability (leading to him taking bad outside shots towards the end of a shot clock or turning the ball over trying to make a play near the end of the shot clock). That's why I'd like to maximize his potential and have him defer to Wallace later in the shot clock. I'm not saying it will ever happen but that would be my ideal usage of him.

Otherwise, if you take Wheeler off the court, you have to put someone else in. Who are you having on the court instead of him? Wallace and Reeves, sure. But who is that third guy? Fredrick has many issues of his own right now. Don't think we really want either Toppin or Livingston at the 3.

 

[bucsrule8872]

There has to be a stat somewhere about assists and turnovers compared to minutes handling the ball. I would imagine Wheeler would have much more opportunity to assist than any other player on the team. The flip side is he also has more opportunity to turn the ball over.

Also comparing a Freshman to a 3 year vet. Yet the turnovers are comparable.

When we compare the two, it’s not really fair, because Wallace has 9 games experience compared to Wheeler’s three years.

Wallace needs the ball. He needs to play through mistakes. He needs experience. Wheeler already has experience. Let’s have two experienced PGs by March.

 

[bucsrule8872]

I’m just going through it in my head, comparing them:

Experience- Wheeler
Assists- Wheeler
Turnovers- Wheeler
Shooting- Wallace
Scoring- Wallace
Free Throw %- Wheeler
Field Goal %- Wallace
Steals- Wallace
Rebounds- Wallace
Blocks- Wallace
Size- Wallace
Strength- Wallace
Athleticism- Wallace
Speed- Wheeler
Defense- Wallace

 

[kybassfan]

Why would a UK fan have an agenda against Wheeler in favor of Wallace?

I could see why the family and close friends of each player would have an agenda for one or the other, but all UK fans want is the best players on the court in order to win games.

I don’t understand why you view your fellow fans so negatively. And what I really don’t get is why you would want to associate with folks you think so lowly of.

So let’s ignore assists, defense, TO and everything else to pick the best point guard. The hottest shooter is NOT the best player. Dohhh!!!!!

 

[UK90]

I’m just going through it in my head, comparing them:

Experience- Wheeler
Assists- Wheeler
Turnovers- Wheeler
Shooting- Wallace
Scoring- Wallace
Free Throw %- Wheeler
Field Goal %- Wallace
Steals- Wallace
Rebounds- Wallace
Blocks- Wallace
Size- Wallace
Strength- Wallace
Athleticism- Wallace
Speed- Wheeler
Defense- Wallace

But, if the issue is who should be in the starting lineup, isn’t the real question not Wheeler vs. Wallace, but instead Wheeler vs. Fredrick?

I think we all agree that Wallace is our best guard. So the real question is who should start beside him …Wheeler or Fredrick. I could buy in to the latter option if CJ was playing like a guy who’d earned that starting spot …but so far that hasn’t happened.

Perhaps we should revisit this thread topic later after CJ has started playing better.

 

[kybassfan]

I was wondering if anyone was going to notice. The assist and turnover stats don't fit the agenda, because Wheeler's are clearly superior. Jonathan above mentioned the other key issue, which is that Wallace doesn't handle ball pressure well. He also struggles getting dribble penetration and creating for others. I know nobody here will admit it. I don't know why I waste my breath here. It's like the entire board is intentionally blind to anything Wheeler does well because he frustrates fans with some of the plays he makes or doesn't make and because of his lack of shooting skill, which is undeniable.

Wallace needs to be playing the 2 primarily and the point when Wheeler goes out. He needs to be catching and shooting threes (as the best shooter on the team) and he needs to be coming off and around screens into the lane to score. This is what he does best. He's not a pure point. He's a combo guard and a very good one, but he's not a pure point guard. I can only assume some can't see this because they just refuse to see it.

Yes, and this is not a knock in the least on Wallace. He improves in all those areas the more he plays. But the thread was directed at point guard skills and very narrow mindedly only raised shooting as a relevant factor.

Right now the best point is Wheeler. March? We’lll see.

 

[mcwildcats04]

But, if the issue is who should be in the starting lineup, isn’t the real question not Wheeler vs. Wallace, but instead Wheeler vs. Fredrick?

I think we all agree that Wallace is our best guard. So the real question is who should start beside him …Wheeler or Fredrick. I could buy in to the latter option if CJ was playing like a guy who’d earned that starting spot …but so far that hasn’t happened.

Perhaps we should revisit this thread topic later after CJ has started playing better.

Yeah, this is the big question if we really want to make the case to move Wheeler more to the bench. CJ isn't shooting well and he doesn't really have the speed anyways that Wheeler does. Is he going to have more speed further on into the season as he gets further removed from his last injury or is he what he is pretty much in terms of speed? (I'm kind of assuming the latter at this point.)

Without any more speed from CJ, and without us otherwise helping to get him more open looks (and him knocking them down), I don't really see how he's a better option than Wheeler in the line-up (especially if we can minimize Wheeler's flaws).