POLL: Is there a God ??
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WildcatfaninOhio
All-American
I have never seen a painting that had no painter. I’ve also never seen a shred of verifiable evidence that there’s an invisible man that lives somewhere above the clouds.
Not sure what the point is to that exercise.
The scientific evidence for design is obvious to any who look. The scientific evidence of spontaneous undirected formation of life is nil. Yet, we still have atheists pretending otherwise.
WildcatfaninOhio
All-American
OK, but the topic at hand is “is there a god?”. It’s not “are there painters”.
Oh, wait…you are using the leap in logic that says that paintings must have a painter, therefore the 200 billion galaxies could not have come from nothing, so an invisible man must have created it all. And the invisible man is exactly as described in the religion you were indoctrinated into as a child.
Science says 200 billion galaxies, all space, time, and matter, did not exist and then suddenly did exist, just like an old religious belief that smart atheists rejected until science said it was so. The universe was not eternal as science once explained. Yikes! Ye olde religion knew before science. 
All this time and you're still missing the most basic point about our relationship with God. You want proof that God exists. God wants his believers to do so by faith. Faith is the cornerstone of Christianity. Without it, there would be no point in the relationship.
What I find interesting with you and folks like you is your ability to have faith, even blind faith, in things that can't be proven. Yet you mock Christians for doing the exact same thing.
You need to be honest with us. Your issue isn't really faith, its an innate dislike of religion - period. You were likely indoctrinated into that way of thinking when you were young.
Many Christians get upset that nonbelievers don't change but I dont think like that. Im happy to discuss the Bible, God, Jesus and salvation but I simply don't care if you turn your back to it. Thats your choice, your free will, which is another basic tenet of Christianity that is necessary but would be destroyed with concrete proof of God's existence.
My friend, believe as you wish. I'd only ask that you figure out why you don't believe in God and use that as your argument against religion. You fully believe in many, many things that you can't prove and lack any direct evidence to support so that isn't the issue.
WildcatfaninOhio
All-American
Faith is the part I don't understand. To truly believe that the stories in the christian bible are true, I'd have to complete turn my brain off. I do not believe that a human can survive 3 days inside a fish. I do not believe that a human was turned into salt. I do not believe that an invisible man from somewhere above the clouds got a virgin girl pregnant, she had a half-human half-god baby, and that half and half was later killed and his body went up into the sky. When I start picking out all the nonsense, the entire story falls apart.
However, I do find it fascination that some smart dudes discovered that the universe is expanding. And after studying the outward expansion they concluded that the whole thing started with an explosion. That is scientific theory, It's not proven beyond all doubt. But it does make sense to me. And when genetic tests show that humans and chimpanzees share 99% of the same DNA it has been concluded that they came from the same family tree that branched off a couple million years ago. More theory. More sense. Meanwhile, I'm still waiting for some smart dudes to find any evidence that a man can survive 3 days inside a fish.
My number one dislike about religion is when christian people in our society insist that others must live by their principles. Not saying you are that way. But that is one reason. Another is the odd position that faithful people have put themselves in. A position that causes me to scratch my head in wonder. It's that christians are 99% atheist themselves. Because over the entirety of human existence there have been at least a thousand gods that have been worshipped and believed to be true. Yet you scoff at all exempt the one you were indoctrinated to believe in. You reject all the others as made-up nonsense. You deny them. You favorite book gives you explicit instructions to deny all the others. I'm sure that you know that the ancient greeks thought that there was a god that lived up in the sky somewhere. And their stories describe how their god Zeus impregnated a mortal woman, Semele. They had a half-human half-god child named Dionysus. Yet christians discard that story as being absurd. You know, those wacky greeks sure believed some weird stuff, right? I mean, who could buy into such nonsense? So, out of the 1,000 other gods that were thought to be true in some other culture or other time period, you think that 999 of them are fictional. I believe that 1,000 of them are fictional. Just one more than you. And since you are 99% atheist yourself, I'm certain you can relate to how I view religions.
I appreciate your response. It deserves a good response from me so I'll try to get that done this evening.
Oh geez! Not the ridiculous Christians are atheists argument! Wow, think for yourself. Dawkins made that foolish comment and it gets repeated ad nauseum.
Here is the thing Ohio won’t address. He must think that life spontaneously came into being and he believes in macro evolution, two concepts that take pure faith to believe and yet he says he does not understand faith.
And, yeah, Jesus informs us it is better that we not lust after others. But, if you think about your relationships, Ohio, they would have gone better if you did not stray with your eye. It’s a better way to live, and deep down you know it’s true.
Yours is a solid post and contains sentiments that I have. It is thoughtful and makes sense to me.
The question of whether a God exists, the Christian or any other, is secondary to whether humans have eternal life.
Solid evidence to support that claim does not exist. Therefore, there's no proof and I cannot conclude everlasting life exists.
Besides ... if we existed for all eternity ... wouldn't that get boring ???
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WildcatfaninOhio
All-American
Seems that human’s belief in life after death predates Christianity by quite a long time. Likely developed over time as a way to cope with the emotional pain caused by death. It’s devastating when our loved ones perish. But it’s comforting if you make yourself believe that you’ll be reunited in paradise at some point. It’s easier to believe that comforting lie than to accept the painful truth.
And therein lies the difference between an agnostic, atheist, and religious person. You, an atheist, think you know the truth: no life after death. A Christian or religious person knows the truth: heaven/hell/reincarnation. An agnostic doesn’t think we as humans are advanced enough to know the truth, so they are open to any possibility.
Since the beginning of humankind, people have created an explanation for what they don't understand. Earlier people didn't understand why it thundered so they created a god of thunder. They didn't understand why they had deadly droughts so they assumed they had misbehaved and offended some diety. As we would expect, they were just as sure of their gods and beliefs as we are today, and there were no shortage of torture and executions for those that didn't profess or accept the "TRUE" belief.
If our world survives and right wingers aren't successful in dragging us all to back to the Bronze Age, we''ll know infinitely more in a thousand years than we know today, To assume we are at the zenith of all human knowledge and understanding is unbelievably ignorant and arrogant-just like the Priest of some forgotten ancient religion who sacrificed a fellow human being to make it rain.
Wa all lust..and in fact we're born to lust. We might not choose not to personally fantasize or actualize that lust, but it is an important and intrinsic part of the human experience. Not only do we lust, but there seems to a be a certain admiration for those that are brave or rich enough to act on that lust. If Christians really cared about chastity and purity, we wouldn't have sexual miscreants like Donald Trump and Elon Musk running our government.
Humans are traditionalists and will create coping mechanisms for comforts sake and for the unexplained. If you want to believe there's two pixies living behind your eyeballs and once you die, those pixies escape from your nostrils and watch over your family line, have at it. But if I say there's a flower god who creates and maintains every flower on earth, you guys would think I'm nuts. If I say I believe Mozart rose from the dead and now sits atop a theater in Vienna looking down on all Italian musicians, you guys would think I'm nuts. My grandmother has been dead for nearly a decade. Her body is in the ground in a place we've dubbed a cemetery. Her aura, or spirit, is not watching me or my loved ones. She is not in another realm petting my childhood dog or speaking to my uncle, her son. We're humans. We're born, we live, we die. And when we die, that's it. How do I know that's it? Because if something lives, then it must die. There is nothing within that living thing that continues on. What exactly is a spirit? We created heaven and hell. We created countless gods. Why are humans allowed to continue on...and on, and on, and on, and on after we pass...but not other living things?
If it gives you comfort, cool. But again, if I tweak any of this and say it was Napoleon who rose from the dead and went into another realm and now sits on a throne, etc. etc., you know exactly what that reaction would look like.
If it gives you comfort, cool. But again, if I tweak any of this and say it was Napoleon who rose from the dead and went into another realm and now sits on a throne, etc. etc., you know exactly what that reaction would look like.
It is not and it doesn't.
It's shallow and simplistic. It's also logically fallacious. The "existence" of other gods has no bearing whatsoever on there being one True God, nor does any scientific theory or mechanistic understanding of the Universe preclude a Creator.
Maybe if it were exactly like this temporal one.
The last two posts are interesting to me personally. I’ve always thought those that were very much extreme and into politics also were incredibly similar to those that were extreme and into being very religious/an atheist: An extreme ego and enviable amount of self confidence. And in these last two posts it’s both people that ARE extremely into politics and ALSO atheist/religious with the most self-assured, egotistical posts in this thread. It really is fascinating.
WildcatfaninOhio
All-American
The point I tried to make was not about the existence of other gods and religions. But to point out questions I have about religious faith. We know that the story of Zeus and Dionysus predates the story of the Christian god and Jesus. Christians seem to believe the story of Jesus is 100% factual, and at the same time they seem to believe an identical story from Ancient Greece is 100% fiction. They’re the exact same story. If faith makes you believe the Jesus story, would it not cause you to also believe the Dionysus story? And if you reject the Zeus and Dionysus stories because they’re just too far out there to take seriously, then….
I understood the "point" you were making. That point is logically fallacious.
TO put it another way: that mistaken beliefs exist, doesn't mean a true belief cannot. It doesn't even hint at it. That's the definition of truth... if something is true, then it necessarily excludes everything else that isn't that something.
And the last part is not what faith is.
Ego is a prohibitor/inhibitor... perhaps the greatest impediment to finding God. Confidence, which incidentally etymologically comes from the latin con fide, or with faith, should be placed solely in Him.
WildcatfaninOhio
All-American
On what grounds would you label the story of Dionysus a mistaken belief? Don’t you think that the Greeks of that time period believed it to be true, based on their faith? Or do you find the idea of an omnipotent male god and a mortal female having a child to be so absurd that it is a mistaken belief?
No, none of that. Of course people can genuinely believe mistaken beliefs.
WildcatfaninOhio
All-American
Agreed ... you have to WANT to believe and it may well often be that the DESIRE for believing is greater and more sincere than ACTUALLY believing. Many people simply do not believe in believing, if you will, and have honest disbelief.
You (general) don't have to want to believe; some Believers came to Belief in Christ without wanting to.
Many atheists, i.e. those who deny God, implicitly and often explicitly, want there to not be one. What you are doing here is rationalizing your unbelief; since you (general) may or do not want to believe, you presume wanting to believe is requisite to genuine Belief. It is not.
It's a good point. Not because it proves that God doesn't exist, but because it challenges religious certainty. Science doesn't disprove God (or even try to), but doesn't prove there is a God either. So then it becomes about faith, which is what you are questioning.
They can't fathom the thought of burning and screaming for.......eternity. Yikes.
WildcatfaninOhio
All-American
I’ve only ever heard this position from theists. Somehow it makes sense to a believer that atheists want there to be no gods. But never once have I ever heard or read where an atheist declares that they want there to be no gods. Never once!
Then you are just not well read enough or are being dishonest. Most prominent so-called public intellectuals who
And remember, I was once an atheist too. There is certainly nothing foreign to "your" way of thinking on this subject matter to me, someone who was once an atheist and has actually read what many prominent atheists have to say. You/I know what you believe in what you deem reason, why you think you';re making mpoints, but it is in all actuality logically fallacious, as I explained earlier. Your collective posts, from my perspective, are banal and regurgitated.
WildcatfaninOhio
All-American
After reading this blistering takedown of my posts, this is how I will forever envision what you look like as you read my stuff...
😆😆😆
After reading this blistering takedown of my posts, this is how I will forever envision what you look like as you read my stuff...
😆😆😆
Ok, that's fine and that's your perspective... but not what happened.
I'm not debating you. I'm not "taking down" anything. And I don't generally read your posts btw, have lots of people on ignore. Megablue is the thread owner, so can't have him on ignore, and I had to read your post to see what error(s) in logic were present. I had already scrolled past it the other day before I happened to read his assessment of it today.
You're entitled to your perspective. My perspective is that you chose that juvenile response because you know I know you were lying.
Only browsed a few pages but thought the discussions were interesting. I had a Christian vs. Atheists Website over a decade ago that I welcomed both sides to friendly debates. Brought back old times.
I will say for me I learned over that time period and still to this day on many topics. A lot of people just want to be right they really aren't interested in listening to someone else point of view.
For Christians and myself I think you can only plant the seed... it's up to the other person if they'd like to pursue knowledge on their own. Now whether or not they take that knowledge and become a Christian or stay an atheist that is their own individual journey. I have faith their is only 1 true God and sure there are been times in my life where I have questions. But it's my faith and the ability to see miracles in everyday life that keeps me on the straight and narrow. Counter point right well those miracles are the result of luck or science.. and that is where faith and belief comes in.
Enjoy debating guys it's fun but just make sure it's done respectfully. Religion is a tough topic!
I will say for me I learned over that time period and still to this day on many topics. A lot of people just want to be right they really aren't interested in listening to someone else point of view.
For Christians and myself I think you can only plant the seed... it's up to the other person if they'd like to pursue knowledge on their own. Now whether or not they take that knowledge and become a Christian or stay an atheist that is their own individual journey. I have faith their is only 1 true God and sure there are been times in my life where I have questions. But it's my faith and the ability to see miracles in everyday life that keeps me on the straight and narrow. Counter point right well those miracles are the result of luck or science.. and that is where faith and belief comes in.
Enjoy debating guys it's fun but just make sure it's done respectfully. Religion is a tough topic!
Thanks for your post and it's interesting to know you once had the debate website. I'm curious as a non-believer, what are some of the miracles you have seen ?? Thanks, in advance.
My version of miracles some would call just dumb luck. It's someone surviving a crash that most would believe are impossible. People coming out of comas after an extended period of time. Surviving a suicide attempt and then watching that same person go onto great things.
I think if your looking for a true miracle like bringing back the dead or turning water into wine you'll always be disappointed. As I mentioned the above is just coincidences for some people... for me I like to think there was a reason. However you know better than I do that statement doesn't fly for a non-believer. It's always going to be tough sledding pitching faith vs. Science.
Yes, and there is a documentary, called "Surviving Death" on Netflix that I would recommend to anyone that doesn't think some really interesting things happen, on occasion. We'll never be able to empirically prove the existence of God. Just not gonna happen, but if you link enough anecdotal evidence with faith, you can experience a pretty meaningful spiritual existence.
Good post. YES !! There is no question that interesting things happen on occasion. Many are unexplained.
For people of faith, unexplained events are often attributable to God. For non-believers, unexplained events are simply unexplained. What seems unexplained is why some people have faith and others do not.
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People that believe in abiogenesis are just as involved in a faith-based religion as Christians. They just don't, or won't admit it.
Which is cool I guess.
Which is cool I guess.
WildcatfaninOhio
All-American
I’ve seen this suggested before and it leaves me with questions. Like, I believe in abiogenesis. But I’ve never seen a singular holy book about it. I know of no rituals that go along with my belief. No codes or rules required to believe. No universally accepted symbols that I’m aware of. No way to pray to it. No deity and no hierarchy of leadership. No holy day, no regular meetings, no membership fees. No promise of eternal reward for believing. No threats of eternal punishment for not believing.
But, yeah…other than those missing characteristics I guess it is exactly like a religion.
