Phil Jackson: Duke Players Fail To Live Up To Expectations In The NBA

[Svarog]

If they went to UK instead of Duke they'd be able to play defense instead of lay on their back in the flipped over turtle position.

You think Okafor is a clueless oaf out there on D if UK had him for a year banging with Willy and Dakari?

 

[king of cali]

Walker wasn't a star in Boston? Rondo wasn't a star? Rondo was smashing assist records a few years ago and was one of the best pg's in the league. Where have you been?

Walker was a gunner. He was never at any point a superstar. Good player? Sure. Superstar? Never. Same with Rondo. He was a very good player, never a superstar. True superstars are players franchises build around. That's not Rondo.

 

[Mark Gastineau]

Walker wasn't a star in Boston? Rondo wasn't a star? Rondo was smashing assist records a few years ago and was one of the best pg's in the league. Where have you been?

Walker made 3 all-star teams, but he was not a superstar. Rondo had a great run in Boston, but he is not a superstar either. If anything, he's turned into a pariah judging by his time in Dallas.

 

[coolcat9lives]

Who has UNC produced since Vince Carter and Antawn Jamison? And before that since Michael Jordan?

Before Anthony Davis and John Wall jumped to the league, who had UK produced in the way of a superstar, much less a consistent all star? Closest I can remember would be Jamal Mashburn.

Can you name three Dukies of the same caliber of the UNC guys? What about three guys the caliber of Davis, Wall and Cousins? I'll wait......

 

[TheTruCatsFan]

Oh and there is no denying that Anthony Davis is a superstar, that's just stupid. He's the highest paid player in the history of the NBA and on every analysts Top 5 list. Let's not be silly here folks

 

[KyFord]

BS

Rondo was widely considered one of the best point guards in the NBA for multiple years. Before he got hurt he was breaking records.

 

[Mark Gastineau]

If they went to UK instead of Duke they'd be able to play defense instead of lay on their back in the flipped over turtle position.

You think Okafor is a clueless oaf out there on D if UK had him for a year banging with Willy and Dakari?

Duke doesn't play defense? KenPom begs to differ: http://kenpom.com/

 

[Svarog]

Hacking, slapping, eye-gouging, and flopping are not defense. That's why your players do not perform well in the NBA as the greatest coach in NBA history has so succinctly pointed out.

Had they learned actual legitimate defensive techniques instead of ballet, acting, and judo then you'd have a point.

 

[Mark Gastineau]

Hacking, slapping, eye-gouging, and flopping are not defense. That's why your players do not perform well in the NBA as the greatest coach in NBA history has so succinctly pointed out.

Had they learned actual legitimate defensive techniques instead of ballet, acting, and judo then you'd have a point.

Agree to disagree. There's a reason Duke players keep getting drafted, and I highly doubt its because all NBA GMs are idiots.

 

[king of cali]

BS

Rondo was widely considered one of the best point guards in the NBA for multiple years. Before he got hurt he was breaking records.

Being one of the best PGs is not the same as being a superstar.

 

[Svarog]

If you're the best or one of the very few best at your position in the NBA you are a superstar.

 

[GonzoCat90]

They recruit a certain type of player, teach them a certain style of play, and that doesn't translate to the pro game at the elite level.

Okafor and Parker fit the same mold. They'll post impressive empty stats and guard no one.

Excuses are fine for specific circumstances, but you can't put the same blanket over every Duke guy drafted since Grant Hill and explain the results in a positive way.

Go ahead and list the top 20 or so guys drafted from the elite schools since K has been at Duke and see how those match up at the top. It'll be a nice deep list of role players, but virtually no difference makers unless you want to be generous and count Maggette and guys of that caliber.

 

[bthaunert]

82games.com did a great analysis over a 20 year period of what to expect from a draft pick position in terms of statistics. Here is how Duke players drafted in the first round of the NBA draft between 2000 - 2013 and how they have fared compared to others drafted in the same spot (strictly going on ppg since rebounds and assists will fluctuate depending on what position the player was in):

Shane Battier - 6th pick - 8.6ppg - 10.2 is average for that draft position - BELOW average
Jay Williams - 2nd pick - NA - injured after rookie year - NA
Mike Dunleavy - 3rd pick - 11.7ppg - 15.2 is average for that draft position - BELOW average
Dahntay Jones - 20th pick - 5.4ppg - 6.2 is average for that draft position - BELOW average
Luol Deng - 7th pick - 15.8ppg - 10.9 is average for that draft position - ABOVE average
Shelden Williams - 5th pick - 4.5ppg - 13.4 is average for that draft position - BELOW average
JJ Redick - 11th pick - 10.8ppg - 7.5 is average for that draft position - ABOVE average
Gerald Henderson - 12th pick - 12ppg - 6.6ppg is average for that draft position - ABOVE average
Kyrie Irving - 1st pick - 21ppg - 16.6 is average for that draft position - ABOVE average
Nolan Smith - 21st pick - 3.3ppg - 7.8 is average for that draft position - BELOW average
Austin Rivers - 10th pick - 7ppg - 10.2 is average for that draft position - BELOW average
Miles Plumlee - 26th pick - 5.7ppg - 6.0 is average for that draft position - BELOW average
Mason Plumlee - 22nd pick - 8.1ppg - 5.6 is average for that draft position - ABOVE average

7 guys have statistically performed below the ppg average for their draft position and 5 have performed above average. With Rivers and the Plumlees still very young, it's hard to figure out where they might end up.

 

[wcc31]

Semantics aside, he was more of a star than any Duke player besides Hill (and that's even arguable considering his fragility).

And why in the hell is a UK fan using semantics to defend Duke over UK anyway?

 

[GonzoCat90]

Okay, so then there have been five superstars in the last 30 years. Neat. Maybe broaden your definition for the purposes of having discussions with the general public connotation of the word.

 

[king of cali]

If you're the best or one of the very few best at your position in the NBA you are a superstar.

False. You build around superstars. Boston chose to trade Rondo away, and got better I might add. You do the math.

 

[GonzoCat90]

82games.com did a great analysis over a 20 year period of what to expect from a draft pick position in terms of statistics. Here is how Duke players drafted in the first round of the NBA draft between 2000 - 2013 and how they have fared compared to others drafted in the same spot (strictly going on ppg since rebounds and assists will fluctuate depending on what position the player was in):

Shane Battier - 6th pick - 8.6ppg - 10.2 is average for that draft position - BELOW average
Jay Williams - 2nd pick - NA - injured after rookie year - NA
Mike Dunleavy - 3rd pick - 11.7ppg - 15.2 is average for that draft position - BELOW average
Dahntay Jones - 20th pick - 5.4ppg - 6.2 is average for that draft position - BELOW average
Luol Deng - 7th pick - 15.8ppg - 10.9 is average for that draft position - ABOVE average
Shelden Williams - 5th pick - 4.5ppg - 13.4 is average for that draft position - BELOW average
JJ Redick - 11th pick - 10.8ppg - 7.5 is average for that draft position - ABOVE average
Gerald Henderson - 12th pick - 12ppg - 6.6ppg is average for that draft position - ABOVE average
Kyrie Irving - 1st pick - 21ppg - 16.6 is average for that draft position - ABOVE average
Nolan Smith - 21st pick - 3.3ppg - 7.8 is average for that draft position - BELOW average
Austin Rivers - 10th pick - 7ppg - 10.2 is average for that draft position - BELOW average
Miles Plumlee - 26th pick - 5.7ppg - 6.0 is average for that draft position - BELOW average
Mason Plumlee - 22nd pick - 8.1ppg - 5.6 is average for that draft position - ABOVE average

7 guys have statistically performed below the ppg average for their draft position and 5 have performed above average. With Rivers and the Plumlees still very young, it's hard to figure out where they might end up.

Also important to note how those above/below's break down. The 3rd, 5th, 6th and 10th picks all underperformed. That matters a lot more than Mason Plumlee being a slightly better role player than the typical 22nd pick or Miles Plumlee underperforming by just .3 points per game.

 

[Mark Gastineau]

Also important to note how those above/below's break down. The 3rd, 5th, 6th and 10th picks all underperformed. That matters a lot more than Mason Plumlee being a slightly better role player than the typical 22nd pick or Miles Plumlee underperforming by just .3 points per game.

Scoring is only one aspect of the game, and not all of the players you listed were drafted to drop 25+ a night.

 

[GonzoCat90]

Scoring is only one aspect of the game, and not all of the players you listed were drafted to drop 25+ a night.

You don't find it odd that you're having to offer up an explanation for each piece of negative evidence?

 

[king of cali]

Also important to note how those above/below's break down. The 3rd, 5th, 6th and 10th picks all underperformed. That matters a lot more than Mason Plumlee being a slightly better role player than the typical 22nd pick or Miles Plumlee underperforming by just .3 points per game.

Interesting study, but kinda silly to just use ppg. For example, you can say Battier underperformed based on ppg, but that denies his impact on defense, where he was one of the best wing defenders and a legit 3 and D guy.

 

[UKcats1988]

82games.com did a great analysis over a 20 year period of what to expect from a draft pick position in terms of statistics. Here is how Duke players drafted in the first round of the NBA draft between 2000 - 2013 and how they have fared compared to others drafted in the same spot (strictly going on ppg since rebounds and assists will fluctuate depending on what position the player was in):

Shane Battier - 6th pick - 8.6ppg - 10.2 is average for that draft position - BELOW average
Jay Williams - 2nd pick - NA - injured after rookie year - NA
Mike Dunleavy - 3rd pick - 11.7ppg - 15.2 is average for that draft position - BELOW average
Dahntay Jones - 20th pick - 5.4ppg - 6.2 is average for that draft position - BELOW average
Luol Deng - 7th pick - 15.8ppg - 10.9 is average for that draft position - ABOVE average
Shelden Williams - 5th pick - 4.5ppg - 13.4 is average for that draft position - BELOW average
JJ Redick - 11th pick - 10.8ppg - 7.5 is average for that draft position - ABOVE average
Gerald Henderson - 12th pick - 12ppg - 6.6ppg is average for that draft position - ABOVE average
Kyrie Irving - 1st pick - 21ppg - 16.6 is average for that draft position - ABOVE average
Nolan Smith - 21st pick - 3.3ppg - 7.8 is average for that draft position - BELOW average
Austin Rivers - 10th pick - 7ppg - 10.2 is average for that draft position - BELOW average
Miles Plumlee - 26th pick - 5.7ppg - 6.0 is average for that draft position - BELOW average
Mason Plumlee - 22nd pick - 8.1ppg - 5.6 is average for that draft position - ABOVE average

7 guys have statistically performed below the ppg average for their draft position and 5 have performed above average. With Rivers and the Plumlees still very young, it's hard to figure out where they might end up.

Citing 82games, nice. Heck of a site with loads of info on it. The guy who started the site got hired by the Mavs a few years ago.

 

[GonzoCat90]

Interesting study, but kinda silly to just use ppg. For example, you can say Battier underperformed based on ppg, but that denies his impact on defense, where he was one of the best wing defenders and a legit 3 and D guy.

Does it ignore that Dunleavy, Smith and Rivers were drafted almost exclusively for their scoring and don't provide it? Or that Shelden Williams was garbage on both ends despite being drafted as a defender?

 

[UKWildcats#8]

This is not some ground breaking news by PJ. Duke players underachieve in the NBA for the most part.

 

[Neue Regel]

Hacking, slapping, eye-gouging, and flopping are not defense. That's why your players do not perform well in the NBA as the greatest coach in NBA history has so succinctly pointed out.

Had they learned actual legitimate defensive techniques instead of ballet, acting, and judo then you'd have a point.

I guess Duke fans will just have to live with his bad coaching.

 

[Svarog]

False. You build around superstars. Boston chose to trade Rondo away, and got better I might add. You do the math.

Okay, to you the best PG in the NBA at the time who also won an NBA Championship was not a superstar at that time, to you. Got it.

 

[Mark Gastineau]

You don't find it odd that you're having to offer up an explanation for each piece of negative evidence?

No, because every point I've made is pretty obvious.

 

[TheTruCatsFan]

Boston chose to trade Rondo away, and got better I might add. You do the math.

Boston dismantled their team and Rondo got severely injured. Your math sucks.

 

[Mark Gastineau]

Boston dismantled their team and Rondo got severely injured. Your math sucks.

I think Rondo will do better with younger talent around him in Sacramento.

 

[GonzoCat90]

I guess Duke fans will just have to live with his bad coaching.

It's excellent coaching for the college game, it just isn't a style that translates to the pros, especially when you aren't wearing the Duke jersey with Coach K barking at the officials.

 

[Mark Gastineau]

with Coach K barking at the officials.

Only Coach K yells at officials? Interesting...

 

[GonzoCat90]

I mean if Michael Jordan was a superstar how come the Bulls let him just go play for the Wizards?

 

[GonzoCat90]

Only Coach K yells at officials? Interesting...

That's exactly what I said. Congratulations on winning the internet.

 

[TheTruCatsFan]

I think Rondo will do better with younger talent around him in Sacramento.

I really hope he can. I'm defending the hell out of his legacy itt, but he's got to get his groove back. He needs to stop over thinking and over reacting. Basically just get back to ballin'. He's still got game (for another 2-3 years).

 

[Mark Gastineau]

I really hope he can. I'm defending the hell out of his legacy itt, but he's got to get his groove back. He needs to stop over thinking and over reacting. Basically just get back to ballin'. He's still got game (for another 2-3 years).

He should try to emulate Chris Paul and just keep lobbing the ball to WCS and Cousins.

 

[Mark Gastineau]

That's exactly what I said. Congratulations on winning the internet.

Thanks.

 

[TUL]

Phil is still living in 1990.

Duke has more NBA players than almost any program in the nation. It has three first picks. It has multiple all-stars... In fact, more than almost any other program in the modern era. It has a bunch of starters on a bunch of playoff teams. Frankly, UK is maybe the only program that produces more pros in the modern era, and that is only because of Cal's enthusiastic and multiple-year embracing of the OAD concept.

And to be honest... We have five titles, including two in the last five years, to make us feel better. As a Duke fan, some older GM's one line of outdated opinion doesn't bother me all that much, especially given how much success Duke players have had in the league, and given how many positive things I've read over the years from league people who love how Duke players come in more ready than most.

 

[bthaunert]

Interesting study, but kinda silly to just use ppg. For example, you can say Battier underperformed based on ppg, but that denies his impact on defense, where he was one of the best wing defenders and a legit 3 and D guy.

I used PPG because if the 2nd pick in the draft is 75% guards over that 20 years, then rebounding would be down. There is limited info to go on and that was the one I chose. By no means a perfect study, but some interesting info for conversation.

 

[Mark Gastineau]

too many Duke fans ITT. Is there an option to hide or ignore and entire thread? There should be.

Phil Jackson's fault!

 

[Uk1111]

Mark you lost a lot of credibility with saying AD, Wall, and Cousins have a way to go to prove themselves, lmao! You wisely conceded AD, argubably the top player in the league right now, but Cousins is the best big guy in the league period, RIGHT NOW, and you can make the same argument for Wall, but there's more top PGs. But regardles, he has all ready arrived, and while like every player not at their peak, he's got room to improve, but so does EVERYBODY else not on the downside of his career!
As far as having as many players in the NBA, other than a few Tubby, or BCG recruits, Cal has produced almost as many players in 6 years at UK than K has in 15, so please just stop with this silliness. Who's got more players in when the two were both at blue bloods the last 6 years and one wasn't at a mid major and it's not even close.
Back to the superstar BS, but didn't AD, Wall, and Cuz all make first team all NBA. If not, they were all at least on one of the 3 all NBA teams meaning that all 3 are at least top 15, so your point about them still having all that room to grow as a player all the more impressive!!!!!

 

[Blueaz]

Walker made 3 all-star teams, but he was not a superstar. Rondo had a great run in Boston, but he is not a superstar either. If anything, he's turned into a pariah judging by his time in Dallas.

Mark. I know you were vetted by another RR poster; but this is still a UK board...not a Duke board.
Are you going to chime in on every Duke thread and try to discredit RR opinions (albeit nicely and politely)? That is still trolling, but in a respectable way.
Not saying, you must agree with all the opinions here, but c'mon; you don't have to disagree and create more conflict. RR is good at eating their own, we don't need your help.