Our Guards - Other than Ulis, our guards are average to slightly above average

[WeepNoMore]

Lots of you posters want to place the blame on this year's team's mediocre performance to-date on our inside players.

IMHO, you are giving this year's guards WAAAAY too much credit!!!!

To-date based on Coach Cal's "demonstrated performance" criterion, with the exception of 2012-13:

(1) none of UK's 3 current guards would have started.

(2) Ulis would have gotten some backup minutes, at most, at point on some of the teams.

(3) Murray might have gotten some spot minutes as a spot-up, 3-point shooter.

(4) Briscoe would rarely have seen the floor.

At this point in time, this year's team has average to slightly above average players in its 8-9 man rotation!

And, with the exception of Ulis, there are no "alpha males" on this team. In contrast, most of Coach Cal's other teams had two or three or more!

 

[KYtotheCore]

I like the passion . . . I think the exclamation points and bold lettering are going to make this an interesting thread.

 

[crawfords corner]

The better team you put Murray on the better he'd be imho. There'd by more spacing. More room for him to display what he can actually do. It's easy to look less when others can key on you more because your teammates are incapable of getting anything on their own.

 

[jrpross]

I like the passion . . . I think the exclamation points and bold lettering are going to make this an interesting thread.

That's true. If not for them I wouldn't have believed him.

 

[caneintally]

Just LMAO at the OP . I mean seriously ? Murray will be the 1st guard drafted and is one of the 3 best guards Cal has brought to Uk. Briscoe is a total beast of a man who just needs to work on free throws. Hawkins is a great bench player and Mulder has potential . Matthews is a great defender who will be really good when all is said and done . WE have the best back court in the land .

 

[brianpoe]

Just LMAO at the OP . I mean seriously ? Murray will be the 1st guard drafted and is one of the 3 best guards Cal has brought to Uk. Briscoe is a total beast of a man who just needs to work on free throws. Hawkins is a great bench player and Mulder has potential . Matthews is a great defender who will be really good when all is said and done . WE have the best back court in the land .

UK has never had an average player...

Cane you should be in charge of the Media Guide player biography section each year.


Other than 2013 I dont see any player on this team starting over any player on Cal's previous teams.

Murray being the closest but Cal would go with Aaron's defense.

 

[UK2005_24]

Murray avg?? He is on pace to be the all-time freshman scoring leader. ... I couldnt imagine how much better he would be if UK actually had a post guy who could score so defenses wouldnt key on him so much....Plus he should still be playing HS basketbal this year...

 

[Atrain7732]

Calling UK's guards average this year is greatly underestimating their talent!!!!!! (like the exclamation points to emphasize the point)

Their is a reasonable argument to be made that Ullis could have started over Andrew last year in what was one of the better teams ever, not just in Cals tenure. I don't necessarily agree but you can make the argument. Murray is a stud who will continue to improve. He has had a lot laid on his shoulders and for the most part has responded well. Briscoe is not a super star this year, but is a much more than "average" player.

So, yeah in short, you are just completely wrong!!!!!!

 

[CHAMPCAT11]

Just LMAO at the OP . I mean seriously ? Murray will be the 1st guard drafted and is one of the 3 best guards Cal has brought to Uk. Briscoe is a total beast of a man who just needs to work on free throws. Hawkins is a great bench player and Mulder has potential . Matthews is a great defender who will be really good when all is said and done . WE have the best back court in the land .

You lost me when you said Briscoe just needs to work on free throws. Briscoe is an excellent defender that makes lay ups when he can get to the basket. If he DOUBLED his free throw percentage it would still be bad. That's like saying the Titanic wouldn't have sunk if someone had a bucket to bail out the water. He can't hit anything beyond 3 feet from the basket. I hope this changes but that's what he is at this point.

 

[shaudyshaud]

The paint clogged up because they don't respect our inside play and they shouldn't. That makes the guard play worse then the fact that Briscoe can't shoot makes it even worse.

 

[WeepNoMore]

Just LMAO at the OP . I mean seriously ? Murray will be the 1st guard drafted and is one of the 3 best guards Cal has brought to Uk. Briscoe is a total beast of a man who just needs to work on free throws. Hawkins is a great bench player and Mulder has potential . Matthews is a great defender who will be really good when all is said and done . WE have the best back court in the land .

Calling UK's guards average this year is greatly underestimating their talent!!!!!! (like the exclamation points to emphasize the point)

Their is a reasonable argument to be made that Ullis could have started over Andrew last year in what was one of the better teams ever, not just in Cals tenure. I don't necessarily agree but you can make the argument. Murray is a stud who will continue to improve. He has had a lot laid on his shoulders and for the most part has responded well. Briscoe is not a super star this year, but is a much more than "average" player.

So, yeah in short, you are just completely wrong!!!!!!

Murray avg?? He is on pace to be the all-time freshman scoring leader. ... I couldnt imagine how much better he would be if UK actually had a post guy who could score so defenses wouldnt key on him so much....Plus he should still be playing HS basketbal this year...

While at UK:

(1) Murray > Wall or Bledsoe 2010 -- laughable!
(2) Murray > Knight or Lamb or Liggins 2011 -- you're kidding, right?
(3) Murray > Teague or Lamb or Miller 2012 -- hardly!
(4) Murray > Harrisons or Young 2014 -- not really!
(5) Murray > Harrisons or Booker 2015 -- don't think so!

Why? Relative to most of those listed above:

(1) Murray is miles behind defensively.
(2) Murray is slow and weak with the ball in traffic.
(3) Murray lacks quickness.
(4) Murray is about getting his and doesn't see (?or doesn't look for?) the open man when he is double-or-triple teamed.
(5) Murray doesn't deliver when the game is on the line.

I could go on!

I will concede that Murray may have a higher upside than a few of the above. And that at similar stages in their careers, Murray may be better than Liggins and Miller.

But, at the risk of repeating myself, Murray's play this year would limit him to a few minutes as a spot-up three-point shooter on any of the teams above!

 

[Atrain7732]

While at UK:

(1) Murray > Wall or Bledsoe 2010 -- laughable!
(2) Murray > Knight or Lamb or Liggins 2011 -- you're kidding, right?
(3) Murray > Teague or Lamb or Miller 2012 -- hardly!
(4) Murray > Harrisons or Young 2014 -- not really!
(5) Murray > Harrisons or Booker 2015 -- don't think so!

Why? Relative to most of those listed above:

(1) Murray is miles behind defensively.
(2) Murray is slow and weak with the ball in traffic.
(3) Murray lack quickness.
(4) Murray is about getting his and doesn't see (?or doesn't look for?) the open man when he is double-or-triple teamed.
(5) Murray doesn't deliver when the game is on the line.

I could go on!

I will concede that Murray may have a higher upside than a few of the above. And that at similar stages in their careers, Murray may be better than Liggins and Miller.

But, at the risk of repeating myself, Murray's play this year would limit him to a few minutes as a spot-up three-point shooter on any of the teams above!

Saying that UK's guards are "average to slightly above average" is what most I think are having issues with. It is a very different thing than to say that they would not start on the 2010 or 2012 teams. Not very many guards on any teams the last 6 yrs would either.

The only reason this team is competing in games this year is because of those "average" guards. I also do not agree that Ullis & Murray would only get spot minutes on some of those UK teams. You kinda changed your argument. Nobody ever said that they were better than Wall, Bledsoe or Knight. Just simply that they were not average as you proclaimed.

Also, FTR it is very hard to compare players on different years teams. And, although it is certainly my opinion only, I do think Ullis & Murray would get much more than "spot minutes" on almost every other one of Cals UK teams. As I said in my earlier post, you can make he argument (many did at the time also) that Ullis should have started on last years amazing team.

 

[jwhite123]

You people realize that if UK got anything out of their post players it would open the floor up more for our guards, don't you?

 

[KWilt43atbuzz]

Please dont knock Murray....the guy is avg nearly 18 ppg and has scored at least 20 in his last 4 gms

Without Murray's 3 pt shooting prowess this team is NIT bound!

 

[sluggercatfan]

The better team you put Murray on the better he'd be imho. There'd by more spacing. More room for him to display what he can actually do. It's easy to look less when others can key on you more because your teammates are incapable of getting anything on their own.

No way Murray could have played in last year's system or some before...never seen a shot he didn't like and is shoot first and passing is probably sec/3rd option by a long shot

 

[Supafuzz75]

Well,, I feel dumb just reading that.. And I don't need any help feeling dumb..

 

[toonces11]

Murray avg?? He is on pace to be the all-time freshman scoring leader. ... I couldnt imagine how much better he would be if UK actually had a post guy who could score so defenses wouldnt key on him so much....Plus he should still be playing HS basketbal this year...

No he shouldn't be playing high school ball. He should be right where he is at. A freshman.

 

[WeepNoMore]

Saying that UK's guards are "average to slightly above average" is what most I think are having issues with. It is a very different thing than to say that they would not start on the 2010 or 2012 teams. Not very many guards on any teams the last 6 yrs would either.

The only reason this team is competing in games this year is because of those "average" guards. I also do not agree that Ullis & Murray would only get spot minutes on some of those UK teams. You kinda changed your argument. Nobody ever said that they were better than Wall, Bledsoe or Knight. Just simply that they were not average as you proclaimed.

Also, FTR it is very hard to compare players on different years teams. And, although it is certainly my opinion only, I do think Ullis & Murray would get much more than "spot minutes" on almost every other one of Cals UK teams. As I said in my earlier post, you can make he argument (many did at the time also) that Ullis should have started on last years amazing team.

To be fair, I did say "average to slightly above average". Eliminating the comparison to previous UK guards and focusing on the rest of super 5 conference guards, IMHO based on their play to-date:

(1) Briscoe -- average at best.
(2) Murray -- slightly above average -- not quick, weak in traffic, below average defender, better scorer than he is a shooter.
(3) Ulis -- has trouble against taller, stronger guards that are almost as quick. Admire his determination and effort, but he is 5' 9" and not an elite jumper.

Reality is sometimes hard to accept.

 

[WeepNoMore]

Please dont knock Murray....the guy is avg nearly 18 ppg and has scored at least 20 in his last 4 gms

Without Murray's 3 pt shooting prowess this team is NIT bound!

Much more to the game of basketball than being a volume scorer. Volume scorers will help you beat average-to-good teams, but not the really good teams on a consistent basis.

 

[Deli owl]

Lottery pick Murray doesn't think you are very accurate.

 

[Bungalow Bill]

While at UK:

(1) Murray > Wall or Bledsoe 2010 -- laughable!
(2) Murray > Knight or Lamb or Liggins 2011 -- you're kidding, right?
(3) Murray > Teague or Lamb or Miller 2012 -- hardly!
(4) Murray > Harrisons or Young 2014 -- not really!
(5) Murray > Harrisons or Booker 2015 -- don't think so!

Why? Relative to most of those listed above:

(1) Murray is miles behind defensively.
(2) Murray is slow and weak with the ball in traffic.
(3) Murray lacks quickness.
(4) Murray is about getting his and doesn't see (?or doesn't look for?) the open man when he is double-or-triple teamed.
(5) Murray doesn't deliver when the game is on the line.

I could go on!

I will concede that Murray may have a higher upside than a few of the above. And that at similar stages in their careers, Murray may be better than Liggins and Miller.

But, at the risk of repeating myself, Murray's play this year would limit him to a few minutes as a spot-up three-point shooter on any of the teams above!

You really are clueless. You compare Murray to any of our other guards as freshmen and he's better than all of them except Wall. Most of them played with teams that had very good inside players which this team does not.

 

[Atrain7732]

To be fair, I did say "average to slightly above average". Eliminating the comparison to previous UK guards and focusing on the rest of super 5 conference guards, IMHO based on their play to-date:

(1) Briscoe -- average at best.
(2) Murray -- slightly above average -- not quick, weak in traffic, below average defender, better scorer than he is a shooter.
(3) Ulis -- has trouble against taller, stronger guards that are almost as quick. Admire his determination and effort, but he is 5' 9" and not an elite jumper.

Reality is sometimes hard to accept.

Accepting reality doesn't mean agreeing with your OPINION. I think we will have to agree to disagree.

I think any unbiased observer that has seen UK play would say Ullis & Murray are significantly better than "average to slightly above average". Briscoe to a lesser extent, but still well above average IMO. Do they have flaws in their games? Absolutely. So does every guard in the country. Doesn't make them average.

Again, your entire argument is that UK is not losing games bc of the non existent post play, but bc of their average guard play. I would say the opposite. The guards have been asked to shoulder the entire weight of the offense and the defense has been adapting accordingly. Yet still, for the most part, the guards have excelled. They have all had subpar games, but so does every UK player. Especially as freshmen and sophomores.

 

[KWilt43atbuzz]

Much more to the game of basketball than being a volume scorer. Volume scorers will help you beat average-to-good teams, but not the really good teams on a consistent basis.

Listen, there is plenty that is wrong with this team not to have to nit pick on the leading scorer.

 

[jameslee32]

Average guards, haha, and also the strength of the team but we knew that going in. We didn't know how timid the bigs were going to be but learned rather quickly. The depth on the front line is also a huge hole that hasn't been filled. A big problem when either AP or Lee don't show or get injured. An enormous anvil on the back of the team when neither play well.

 

[BigBlue1992]

I don't see how you can say anything bad about our guards. Saying Murray and Ulis are average guards is crazy. Hell if it wasn't for those two guys we wouldn't have won a game. You should be thankful we got lucky enough to pick Murray up at the end of the recruiting period cause without him we'd be headed to the NIT. I will agree Murray does make a lot of bad decisions which is normal for a freshman, but is still a special talent who can score from anywhere on the floor. Briscoe has a ways to go and needs a lot of work on his offense but is still better than our frontcourt players. We should be talking about how much our frontcourt sucks instead of bashing our guards.

 

[_NewWorldOrder_]

You're dumb dude. Murray is a superstar and he'll be a top 10 draft pick. He would definitely have started over one of the Harrison brothers and its not close. His only downfall is he makes stupid turnovers.

 

[brianpoe]

You're dumb dude. Murray is a superstar and he'll be a top 10 draft pick. He would definitely have started over one of the Harrison brothers and its not close. His only downfall is he makes stupid turnovers.

He may have the offensive talent, but no way Cal starts him over a Harrison with that defense and looseness on offense.

He has much greater upside but knowing Cal, he is going with defense.

 

[WeepNoMore]

You really are clueless. You compare Murray to any of our other guards as freshmen and he's better than all of them except Wall. Most of them played with teams that had very good inside players which this team does not.

To each his own, but

(1) I'd take Bledsoe (as a freshman), the two guard on the Wall team, over Murray any day of the week.
(2) Knight (as a freshman) was clutch; Murray is not. And Lamb (as a freshman) knew his role; Murray does not.
(3) Teague (as a freshman) was tough as nails, was a excellent defender, and saw the floor really well, Murray is soft by comparison, a defensive liability, and can't seem to find open teammates consistently (I'm being generous here).
(4) Harrisons (as freshmen) were decent defenders and could take the ball to the basket with more than a "wing and a prayer" much more frequently than Murray. Young (as a freshman), while in the same liability mode as Murray when it came to defense, could shoot rings around Murray.
(5) Booker (as a freshman) was a much better shooter and defender than Murray.

In fact, IMHO, Murray compares favorably only to Goodwin of the 2012-13 team among UK's freshman guards under Coach Cal and, then, only because he has a better 3-point, spot-up shot.

I do, however, agree that most of UK's guards over the years benefited by having some excellent inside players. Although it didn't seem to help Goodwin much, even before the injury to Noel.

 

[dave5164]

I agree with most is that we have outstanding talent in our backcourt. The backcourt would be much better right now if we had a way better frontcourt this year like last year. The backcourt sees the defiency in the frontcourt and they are trying too much. Like yesterday stats everyone was talking about was the 51 shots between Ulis, Murray, and Briscoe. We really had nothing happening underneath and Poy and Lee only played 40 min. between the two so the guards knew they hada to score. The only other scorer yesterday was Willis with 12. We know both Lee and Poy can play and they have both demonstrated this year with both big games like the Bama, Ole Miss, UL. etc. The problem with our Poy and Lee is they have no Consistency and that is what is killing us right now. Look at the Bama game and Poy has 25 and 7 and Lee if not missing his FT's that day would had a nice double/double but he still had a nice game underneath. Then all 3 guards in Ulis, Murray, and Briscoe had nice shooting games and we win by almost 20 on the road to a decent Bama team. If we could have the game to game consistency between Lee and Poy we could be 15-2 or 16-1 right now. That is our biggest problem is not having the consistent play from Lee and Poy and then the decline in Skal that we all didn't expect at the start of the season.

 

[jameslee32]

B-I-N-G-O! Cold outside right? Hell has frozen over!

I knew it would take a while but finally, someone wants a Harrison to start based on defensive ability after 2 long years of near constant maligning that ability.

 

[Blueaz]

The paint clogged up because they don't respect our inside play and they shouldn't. That makes the guard play worse then the fact that Briscoe can't shoot makes it even worse.

And...if we could shoot more consistently the "clogged paint" would open.

Hmmmm. Just like the first few games when teams thought we could shoot and skal was to be a scoring machine.

Funny thing is coaches get paid and everyone knows UKs mutiple, glaring weaknesses and they are feasting.

If Cal can turn this around it will be amazing

 

[Blue_Reality]

While at UK:

(1) Murray > Wall or Bledsoe 2010 -- laughable!
(2) Murray > Knight or Lamb or Liggins 2011 -- you're kidding, right?
(3) Murray > Teague or Lamb or Miller 2012 -- hardly!
(4) Murray > Harrisons or Young 2014 -- not really!
(5) Murray > Harrisons or Booker 2015 -- don't think so!

Why? Relative to most of those listed above:

(1) Murray is miles behind defensively.
(2) Murray is slow and weak with the ball in traffic.
(3) Murray lacks quickness.
(4) Murray is about getting his and doesn't see (?or doesn't look for?) the open man when he is double-or-triple teamed.
(5) Murray doesn't deliver when the game is on the line.

I could go on!

I will concede that Murray may have a higher upside than a few of the above. And that at similar stages in their careers, Murray may be better than Liggins and Miller.

But, at the risk of repeating myself, Murray's play this year would limit him to a few minutes as a spot-up three-point shooter on any of the teams above!

You nailed Murray to a T.... he is definitely a "Me first" player. Poor ball handler, not quick and not clutch. shoots crap shots and is a volume shooter to get "his" points.

Yes he'll get drafted high....but he still is all of the above, and they each are NOT good for a team concept.

 

[WeepNoMore]

I agree with most is that we have outstanding talent in our backcourt. The backcourt would be much better right now if we had a way better frontcourt this year like last year. The backcourt sees the defiency in the frontcourt and they are trying too much. Like yesterday stats everyone was talking about was the 51 shots between Ulis, Murray, and Briscoe. We really had nothing happening underneath and Poy and Lee only played 40 min. between the two so the guards knew they hada to score. The only other scorer yesterday was Willis with 12. We know both Lee and Poy can play and they have both demonstrated this year with both big games like the Bama, Ole Miss, UL. etc. The problem with our Poy and Lee is they have no Consistency and that is what is killing us right now. Look at the Bama game and Poy has 25 and 7 and Lee if not missing his FT's that day would had a nice double/double but he still had a nice game underneath. Then all 3 guards in Ulis, Murray, and Briscoe had nice shooting games and we win by almost 20 on the road to a decent Bama team. If we could have the game to game consistency between Lee and Poy we could be 15-2 or 16-1 right now. That is our biggest problem is not having the consistent play from Lee and Poy and then the decline in Skal that we all didn't expect at the start of the season.

Is it even remotely possible that our bigs are inconsistent, because Murray and Briscoe are dribbling so much and so ineffectively that they are not getting our bigs the ball is a position to score?

I'll give Ulis a pass on this point. The vast majority of the time he truly seems to be a pass-first type of player.

 

[WeepNoMore]

You're dumb dude. Murray is a superstar and he'll be a top 10 draft pick. He would definitely have started over one of the Harrison brothers and its not close. His only downfall is he makes stupid turnovers.

"His only downfall is he makes stupid turnovers", won't (can't) play defense, doesn't (can't) make, as Coach Cal likes to say, the easy pass when his path to the basket is cut off, would rather jack up a contested 3 than make the extra pass. I could go on.

 

[JohnBlue_]

You would a fool to take Bledsoe over Murray. Eric was a solid player but Murray is a star. Even Briscoe scores as much as Bledsoe did.

Only Wall was really better than Murray and Knight was basically on the same level. That's still putting up a half season Murray and comparing him to others full season.

 

[Hoskins91]

Are we comparing Murray to our other guards as freshman? If so then the only guys who I would even consider taking over him would be Wall and Knight. He's having a much better freshman season than any of our other guards did. Especially considering he's our only consistent scorer.

 

[SilentsAreGolden]

WeepNoMore, you lose all credibility when you say Murray is selfish. I've seen him pass up shots numerous times, and make great passes to players in scoring position. Murray has weaknesses, just like all freshmen, really all players, but focusing on those and saying he is average just makes you look foolish, or like you have an agenda.

 

[SilentsAreGolden]

Is it even remotely possible that our bigs are inconsistent, because Murray and Briscoe are dribbling so much and so ineffectively that they are not getting our bigs the ball is a position to score?

I'll give Ulis a pass on this point. The vast majority of the time he truly seems to be a pass-first type of player.

No it's not. You just keep digging your grave deeper and deeper. You show little to no basketball knowledge.

 

[WeepNoMore]

You would a fool to take Bledsoe over Murray. Eric was a solid player but Murray is a star. Even Briscoe scores as much as Bledsoe did.

Only Wall was really better than Murray and Knight was basically on the same level. That's still putting up a half season Murray and comparing him to others full season.

Bledsoe was a solid defender, unlike Murray. Bledsoe, unlike Murray, rarely drove into a crowd only to lose the ball or throw up a prayer. Bledsoe could (would) make the extra pass to get a better shot for his teammate, unlike Murray.

Yea . . . , I'd take Bledsoe (as a freshman) any day of the week and twice on Sundays, i.e., as an NBA player.

Some posters are so enamored with Murray's offensive potential (I would argue unrealized for the most part.) that they simply can't see or choose to ignore his many flaws and various liabilities as a player.

And then, when they can't formulate a valid counter argument, they stick their heads in the sand and resort to calling other posters fools, or dumb, or ignorant, etc.

 

[_NewWorldOrder_]

Our issue this year is bigs. I don't know why some of y'all don't get that. Ulis and Murray are a good enough guard tandem to win a NC. Lets play the "what if" game for a min. I posted this in another thread but the main issue with this team in the bigs. So anyways, if Poy had just left. See ya, out the door you go, and instead we landed Caleb Swanigan and Henry Ellenson then we would be possibly unbeaten right now. But definitely 10xs better than we are now. Lee and Skal would come off the bench. With Swanigan and Ellenson we would have two big time scoring big men. Swanigan is a force in the post. And Ellenson is just a talented all around offensive player. They both score and rebound consistently!!! Really wish we had gotten these 2 kids. It would be a different type season. Ulis and Murray paired with those guys would be pretty spectacular.