Not Enough Evidence on Tubman
- Thread starter Smashcat
- Start date
KC, first I am not saying UK should send him packing at all. But in cases like this where accusations are made it doesn't matter the results of the investigation and he will be labeled by some people. That's certainly not fair to him or UK's program but it is how people with an agenda are. A change of scenery and a fresh start might be in his best interest. But if he wants to stay at UK he shouldn't have a problem being able to.
Why are some of fans some of the dumbest pos on the planet. Even when innocent, they still say hes guilty. You know the Duke Lacrosse team was innocent too right? Prosecutor got fired for taking case to court. Its unbelievable the mediocre minds of some of you.
Well, right now I am accusing you of rape, and until a grand jury refuses to prosecute the case I am going to assume you are guilty.
No, wait, you will have to have more evidence than that, that doesn't prove anything.
And there is no 100% proof that the next time you decide to cross the street you will make it, while maybe the risk is small there is a risk so I don't think you should try it. I hope you like your side of the street.
The prosecutor said that there will be no further charges in this case...Everyone involved should be able to get on with their life and that includes allowing Lloyd to return to the team asap...
It seems you have a misconception with our justice system, so let me explain it to you. Try to keep up, and if you need me to simplify it for you, do feel free to ask, but ask politely!
"From what I read, Tubman wasn't cleared"
- Yeah? Well from what I just read, Tubman didn't need to be cleared of anything because evidence supports that Tubman didn't do anything, and before you say "Oh, but it didn't go to trial, so we'll never know if he's deemed guilty or not guilty", there wasn't even enough evidence to send it to trial. If it's not enough to send to trial, it's not enough to convict regardless. The prosecuting attorney has said that they will not continue to pursue the case, which clears him.
"So there isn't exactly 100% proof that Tubman is innocent"
- There isn't exactly 0.001% proof that Tubman is guilty, if you want to put it that way. Thankfully, in our justice system, you're innocent until proven guilty.
"While it maybe small, there is a risk allowing Tubman to return"
- While it may be a small, there is a risk in not supporting Tubman, and not allowing Tubman to return. How would you feel if you had a son who was wrongfully accused of a crime (and maybe Tubman was, at the moment, the evidence supports that, as opposed to the evidence supporting Tubman's guilt)? And finally, when he has it all behind him after several months, he's not allowed to pursue his dream anymore just because of another person's carelessness and disregard for a person's future. How would you feel about that? What do you tell your son? "Yeah, that's what you get for having sex while you're at college", I mean, be realistic. Why would you care though, it isn't happening to you, or your son. Our program doesn't need to get a label for bailing on kids whose name comes up in things like this, unless they're guilty of it.
"If UK allows him to return, I'll root like hell for him."
- You better, because he's a player on your team on the field. More importantly, if UK doesn't allow him to return (which would be distasteful of the university to do, imo), then you need to root like hell for this kid, in the sense that he's still a kid who wasn't even deemed to be guilty of any wrong-doing, and because of the incident ever coming up with his name in it, he has to make drastic changes in his life. That's hard for an 18 or 19 year old kid to do. If I don't get the chance to root for Tubman the UK football player, I'll sure as hell root for Tubman, the kid who has a lot of adversity to overcome.
"But to just assume it's a slam dunk he'll be back is ridiculous."
- If it was a "slam dunk" that he'll be back, then we wouldn't have to see ignorant comments like the one that you graced us with here.
^^^^^^
Originally posted by Rhavicc:
It seems you have a misconception with our justice system, so let me explain it to you. Try to keep up, and if you need me to simplify it for you, do feel free to ask, but ask politely!
"From what I read, Tubman wasn't cleared"
- Yeah? Well from what I just read, Tubman didn't need to be cleared of anything because evidence supports that Tubman didn't do anything, and before you say "Oh, but it didn't go to trial, so we'll never know if he's deemed guilty or not guilty", there wasn't even enough evidence to send it to trial. If it's not enough to send to trial, it's not enough to convict regardless. The prosecuting attorney has said that they will not continue to pursue the case, which clears him.
"So there isn't exactly 100% proof that Tubman is innocent"
- There isn't exactly 0.001% proof that Tubman is guilty, if you want to put it that way. Thankfully, in our justice system, you're innocent until proven guilty.
"While it maybe small, there is a risk allowing Tubman to return"
- While it may be a small, there is a risk in not supporting Tubman, and not allowing Tubman to return. How would you feel if you had a son who was wrongfully accused of a crime (and maybe Tubman was, at the moment, the evidence supports that, as opposed to the evidence supporting Tubman's guilt)? And finally, when he has it all behind him after several months, he's not allowed to pursue his dream anymore just because of another person's carelessness and disregard for a person's future. How would you feel about that? What do you tell your son? "Yeah, that's what you get for having sex while you're at college", I mean, be realistic. Why would you care though, it isn't happening to you, or your son. Our program doesn't need to get a label for bailing on kids whose name comes up in things like this, unless they're guilty of it.
"If UK allows him to return, I'll root like hell for him."
- You better, because he's a player on your team on the field. More importantly, if UK doesn't allow him to return (which would be distasteful of the university to do, imo), then you need to root like hell for this kid, in the sense that he's still a kid who wasn't even deemed to be guilty of any wrong-doing, and because of the incident ever coming up with his name in it, he has to make drastic changes in his life. That's hard for an 18 or 19 year old kid to do. If I don't get the chance to root for Tubman the UK football player, I'll sure as hell root for Tubman, the kid who has a lot of adversity to overcome.
"But to just assume it's a slam dunk he'll be back is ridiculous."
- If it was a "slam dunk" that he'll be back, then we wouldn't have to see ignorant comments like the one that you graced us with here.
jauk, I said segment of our fanbase, and that segment is very real. They are the ones that are on Twitter and message boards tonight casting doubt on Tubman being innocent, saying that they still don't want Tubman at UK, that there isn't enough proof of innocence, or they fear hypotheticals down the road.
They condemn players before knowing facts and/or before any charges have been filed. They believe everything the media reports and police reports are gospel. They hold the word of the accuser higher than that of the accused even after charges are dropped--they demand justice but then once justice clears someone then justice wasn't enough.
They are rumor mongerers and gossipers that feel the need to let anyone and everyone know why their stance is the right one. I see their damning words on the internet and hear their self-righteous, uninformed opinions that they try to pass off as fact out and about in this state and on the radio airwaves everytime something questionable happens around here. They are the judge, and the jury.
They condemn players before knowing facts and/or before any charges have been filed. They believe everything the media reports and police reports are gospel. They hold the word of the accuser higher than that of the accused even after charges are dropped--they demand justice but then once justice clears someone then justice wasn't enough.
They are rumor mongerers and gossipers that feel the need to let anyone and everyone know why their stance is the right one. I see their damning words on the internet and hear their self-righteous, uninformed opinions that they try to pass off as fact out and about in this state and on the radio airwaves everytime something questionable happens around here. They are the judge, and the jury.
Am I missing something or are some people actually suggesting we kick an innocent kid off the team?? WTF is wrong with this guilty til proven innocent world?
Some on here are so stupid. This kid didn't do anything. Anyone can say anything about anyone and usually get a grand jury to find evidence to create a trial. Remember, prosecute a ham sandwich. They can't find any evidence and many on here should be sorry for the way he has been treated by the press and the BBN holier than thou crowd.
This is pretty much true, have heard the same from those close to the case, and I have at least a little experience here, having represented at least one client (an organization, not an individual) who was kicked off campus a number of years ago. He may be back on the team come this fall, but still some hurdles to overcome.
I am not an attorney and fortunately my experience with the justice system has been limited to serving on the grand jury and traverse jury. Our instruction while serving on a grand jury weren't to determine if guilty beyond a reasonable doubt or innocent, but to determine if enough evidence was presented to send the accused to trail. That it wasn't our duty to determine guilt or innocence. The traverse jury is the group who decides guilt beyond a reasonable doubt or innocence. In this case the grand jury decided there wasn't enough evidence to warrent a trial, has nothing to do with guilt or innocence. This kid isn't getting the chance to clear his name by being judged not guilty, but neither is he facing jail time if things didn't go his way. This verdict means the grand jury wasn't presented enough evidence to send him to trial, not guilt or innocence, for you lawyer types isn't that correct?
Some of you all need to quit watching Law and Order. The case was presented and not enough evidence was presented to the Grand Jury to warrant charges being brought upon him. So he can't be cleared of something he wasn't charged of. It's not up to the girl to appeal. You can't appeal the Grand Jury's decision unless the prosecutor wants to. He obviously doesn't. Now, as far as the Code of Conduct for the school goes, I don't know how that works. I'm guessing once he re-enrolls into classes, he could be brought in front of a disciplinary hearing to determine if he broke any rules but it's he said she said at that point so I would think if you had a smoking gun, there would be enough to prosecute him. It's similar to the Winston Case. FSU held a hearing but didn't go any further. There was more evidence against Winston in that case than even this one.
There's a reason for Grand Jury's and this is it. Anybody can accuse anybody. Look at the Duke LAX case from a few years ago. When a girl cries rape with an athlete, people are going to listen and they should. But, along that, there is evidence and facts to try to make the right decision. Only Tubman and this girl know what happened that night. But if they aren't going to go forward with this, the kid should be allowed to return to his life. If that's football at UK, then so be it. Stoops is going to make the call here and he's going to determine the right thing here.
There's a reason for Grand Jury's and this is it. Anybody can accuse anybody. Look at the Duke LAX case from a few years ago. When a girl cries rape with an athlete, people are going to listen and they should. But, along that, there is evidence and facts to try to make the right decision. Only Tubman and this girl know what happened that night. But if they aren't going to go forward with this, the kid should be allowed to return to his life. If that's football at UK, then so be it. Stoops is going to make the call here and he's going to determine the right thing here.
None of the what if crap....let him play until there is evidence he has done something wrong. What would Bama, Auburn, LSU, and other real Football schools do? If we strap ourselves with higher standards than what those that are absolutely essential, we'll never be able to compete. It's tough enough as it is without expecting players to be choir boys.
If additional info comes up, then act accordingly.
If additional info comes up, then act accordingly.
Folks, sorry to say this but many of you are incredibly sheltered and unaware of the current environment that colleges and college athletics are operating in now. UK like every college in America is under the threat FROM THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT to treat rape accusations in a harsh and punitive manner. Don't know what I'm talking about, read up, here is one of a thousand articles on it. Now Obama & Holder's stance is BS, and based on a BS study that alleges 1 out of 5 college women are raped. Doesn't change the fact that the threat is still out there!
As I said over & over again in the other thread, it isnt fair or just. Don't blame UK for not instantly saying Tubman is a member in full standing at UK and on the team. Want someone to blame, blame Jamies Winston & FSU & their local police bungling the accusations against him. Or the horrors of the Vandy football team gang rape trial.
Sexual assault accusations in 2015 are not gonna be treated the same way they were in 2005, or treated the same way as a DUI, or a failed piss test, or a bar fight. It sucks, and I read all the time about male students getting absolutely railroaded and shafted at colleges all around the country due to accusations that police would not touch, but it is the reality we are in today. The girl still exists, and as far as I know is still enrolled at UK, and has not ever backed down from her accusations.
Be patient with UK, Stoops, & Barnhart. Most of you don't understand or comprehend how heavy of an issue this curently is, but I trust those 2 gentlemen along with the UK Pres to figure out the right path.
As I said over & over again in the other thread, it isnt fair or just. Don't blame UK for not instantly saying Tubman is a member in full standing at UK and on the team. Want someone to blame, blame Jamies Winston & FSU & their local police bungling the accusations against him. Or the horrors of the Vandy football team gang rape trial.
Sexual assault accusations in 2015 are not gonna be treated the same way they were in 2005, or treated the same way as a DUI, or a failed piss test, or a bar fight. It sucks, and I read all the time about male students getting absolutely railroaded and shafted at colleges all around the country due to accusations that police would not touch, but it is the reality we are in today. The girl still exists, and as far as I know is still enrolled at UK, and has not ever backed down from her accusations.
Be patient with UK, Stoops, & Barnhart. Most of you don't understand or comprehend how heavy of an issue this curently is, but I trust those 2 gentlemen along with the UK Pres to figure out the right path.
You say 1 in 5 of college females are raped. Where did you get that stat and is it legitimate? How many of them are BS claims of rape? It looks like it has just became very risky to have consensual sex on a college campus. You are just one vindictive female away from being in a heap of trouble. Athletes it seems are especially big target especially the really good ones that have promise of being very rich in the future.
This post was edited on 2/12 9:22 AM by C1180
Glad to hear it, and hope he's able to continue on with his life at UK. I think Stoops will hold a scholarship for him, as long as he is able to be re-admitted to school.
Football wise Tubman's return would be huge for UK. Stoops raved about him prior to the start of the season. Make no mistake he's an impact player that would be starting at Defensive End for UK.
Football aside, glad the kid is getting on with his life. If a Grand Jury does not have enough evidence to indict then IMO the kid is innocent. Bits and pieces of info that is out there does not build a credible case for the accuser.
If it were me, I would want to go somewhere else and start my life over again. However, if he and his family wants him back at UK and Stoops wants him then I wish him the best and hope he can contribute to the team.
If it were me, I would want to go somewhere else and start my life over again. However, if he and his family wants him back at UK and Stoops wants him then I wish him the best and hope he can contribute to the team.
Read better. I DON'T SAY IT, OBAMA AND ERIC HOLDER DO, AND THEY ARE THE ONES HOLDING A GUN TO UK AND EVERY OTHER COLLEGE IN THE COUNTRY. The survey where the 1 in 5 stat came from is complete nonsense, but the Feds are using it as justification to ramp up sexual assault punishment by ALL colleges.
I sure hope so. When I was in college I saw more than one acquaintance go through similar situations where charges were pressed. and then later dropped. In one case, the guy that was accused was so drunk he was barely conscious and the girl was riding him, in front of a large group of people. When the cops started questioning witnesses it was pretty obvious the claims were bogus, but it still had to go through the legal process.
Certainly a tricky situation, you don't want to put up barriers in a legit situation when the victim is likely emotionally distraught anyway, but I would venture to say there are more claims that aren't legit than there are claims with basis. Sometimes people regret what they had done and claim assault as justification (not making any sort of judgement either way here, but I've been jaded by what I've seen occur).
Watching the boards is like watching Fox News vs CNN vs CNBC. The segment of people who want to continue with witch hunt proably watch Fox News fair and unbalanced. The one who want him to stand before the schools honor bard are CNBC viewers and everybody else is watching CNN to maybe see what's going to happen. It just strange how people can all see the same info and come up with greatly different conclusions. Think God in Tubmans case this didn't go to trial and he can go on with his life. I hope he returns to football team and university . He certainly will be wiiser to the pitfalls of publicity and the dangers that everybody doesn't have your best interest at heart and a witch hunt is hard to stop once it gets traction.
I doubt many of us have a complete enough understanding of the facts to guess whether University discipline is going to be an issue in the end.
If he was no billed by the grand jury then it should be up to CMS. I doubt he faces any university disciplinart action if no evidence of a crime was committed. Everyone has been saying wait until his case is done, and now that it's over folks are still acting like he's guilty.
I'm sure all parties involved were not much more than 18, and if the kid has no history of this kind of behavior then give him the benefit of the doubt.
I'm sure all parties involved were not much more than 18, and if the kid has no history of this kind of behavior then give him the benefit of the doubt.
A
anon_013cn8yrfncx2
Guest
BS. Fox watcher here. Case should be totally over and never brought up
Again. Tubman should be treated as tho nothing ever occurred which is
pretty obvious as far as anything criminal is concerned.
Again. Tubman should be treated as tho nothing ever occurred which is
pretty obvious as far as anything criminal is concerned.
The criminal justice system is done with this case,it will move on to the next instance where someone was robbed,raped or killed and try to sort out those details
Tubman,the young woman and their families are left to sort out the pieces of their lives and re assemble them as best they can.It is sorta like the old childrens rhyme Humpty-Dunpty,some pieces are missing and the rest don't fit together quite right
You hear much about the end of the legal process 'giving closure' to the people involved in cases like these,in my experience that is very much a myth.It is only a segment of the process that a person has to work thru when they are involved in something like this.How they deal with the outcome in their daily lives is the next step and how it changes them as a person is the long range question.
Will he want to return to the same surroundings where this incident took place or will he want a fresh start somewhere else?I doubt that he even knows that right now for sure
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