NCAA, NIL & Barnhart
- Thread starter bballcat4
- Start date
You’re an obvious Mitch supporter with no concerns.
No word salad from me. I believe Mitch has done a good job. I also believe our coaches do NOT believe Mitch is fully leveraging the legal and ethical extent of NIL and they had to go AROUND him to get our state law equal to other states as it relates to NIL.
We agree to disagree. Wanting to leverage current NIL law is not equated to wanting to cheat.
Peace
Mitch was hired in 2002. He underfunded the Football team for 10 years, until he had to fire Jocker. No one can deny that.
Mitch drove the program into the ground so hard that less than 14,000 fans showed up in a 70,000 seat stadium. He used those funds to build up his precious Olympic sports for 10 years at the sole expense of the football program.
Those are facts.
Mitch Barnhart can't just do capital projects as he pleases. Projects that large require bonding because theyre so expensive, the school only has so much bonding capacity and they used it on the hospital back in those days. Everyone knows this, yet you guys continue to lie and act like it isn't a thing, "he underfunded the football program".
Funds spent on Olympics sports are much less than upgrading a football stadium ($110 million) or building a state of the art football practice facility and complex ($45million), he can use funds on hand for that and doesnt have to use bonding. This is basic knowledge that you guys continue to deny.
What you guys need to do is go to the board of trustees. Just tell them how many posts yall have on a message board, they'll be forced to take a meeting with you guys. Explain to them how Mitch Barnhart ran the football program into the ground (just look at it) and how he won't allow cheating with collectives like Tennessee does. Oh and don't forget to tell them about the time that he said we live in a microwave society and everyone wants instant success and hurt your feelings. Demand his dismissal and again, remind them of how many posts you have on Cats Illtrated.
When was Joker named “head coach in waiting?” I don’t know if that was before Mitch began. If not, it was at the very beginning of his tenure. This strategy was in vogue, but didn’t last very long for a good reason.
I don’t know enough details regarding his first 5 years to comment intelligently.
I don’t care if Stoops and Cal were forced on Mitch. (I don’t think they were!) I give Mitch credit for the current state of UK athletics. I also give him credit for having a moral compass.
@Magilla thinks i advocate cheating or am talking in circles. I think my statements are clear.
If NIL was on 1-10 scale with 10 being the threshold for cheating then I fully acknowledge some programs are operating between 11-12. I think most SEC schools are functioning between 8-9. Stoops wants UK to be in the 8-9 range. I think Mitch wants to operate in the 5-6 range. The fact our football and basketball coaches had to go around Mitch just to get Beshear just to get our current law tells me they don’t like Mitch’s current stance. (This is clear fact known by many.
@Magilla Gorilla, on 1-10 scale, where do you think Stoops wants us to be? Where do you want UK to be? Where do you think Mitch wants UK to be?
The good news is Kentucky will never have a worst AD, once Barnhart is gone. It can only get better.
Just do away with amateurism and make anyone in any sport from high school on be able to do NIL deals fixes the problem. Today in Kentucky a 18 year old senior in HS can’t do NIL but once he leaves HS he can. But what really happens if he or she is a player they go to the highest bidder.
I don't know what a scale of 8-9 is. Thats like saying on a 1-10 scale how faithful are you to your wife. You either are or you aren't. The rules are clear, written out, and are black and white. There is no scale of following the rules, you're either following the rules, or you're cheating and not following the rules.
3rd parties are not allowed to be involved in the recruiting process. You are not allowed to say to a PSA (recruit) that we have a collective and this is what they will pay you or this is the money they have for you. Its just not allowed, if you want to do that, you want to cheat. The NCAA even reiterated and emphasized that was not allowed.
I agree with this statement 110% and do not want UK to be part of cheating. (This was my ’off the scale’ analogy.)
BTW - I’m guessing we would agree on 90% of things related to sports and I have no desire to argue. I only ask the questions because you seem knowledgeable about UK athletics.
Do you think Stoops and Cal went around Mitch to get Ky’s state law changed about NIL?
Do you think Stoops is pleased with Mitch’s position related to NIL?
Went around him for what? Kentucky state law falls in line with NCAA guidelines onNIL. Kentucky state law literally prohibits schools from promising NIL money to a recruit. You know, Mitch Barnharts stance on NIL, it falls in line with state law and NCAA guidelines.
I don't know if they're pleased with his position or not but his position follows state law and NCAA guidelines. If they're not pleased they should fight to change the rules and the law. LOL at expecting to violate both.
No matter what Matt Jones says or other message board posters say, the law is clear, NCAA guidelines are clear. It is illegal for an institution an association or an affiliated organization to give or promise compensation for name image and likeness in the recruiting process. Collectives absolutely can not promise recruits, "This is what we has for you if you sign."
I'm not exactly sure what Mitch Barnhart is not allowing that you guys want him to if you're not talking about cheating.
I'm not exactly sure what Mitch Barnhart is not allowing that you guys want him to if you're not talking about cheating.
Ky did not have a law until Cal & Stoops got Beshear to issue an executive order. This order is now approved and state law. This lack of law initially put UK behind other states and their universities. Coaches felt Mitch was dragging his feet on this law and hurting recruiting.
You ask "what do I want Mitch to do?" It is simple for me. I want him to accept that NIL is a new part of college sports. I also want him to embrace it and be a pioneer for creative ways to leverage NIL to strengthen UK football/basketball. You have to admit there's a major difference between "Our players are available to help you advertise your business" and an AD who embraces NIL, proactively makes calls to potential business owners, and seeks creative ways to involve small business owners and even individuals.
In fairness, Mitch may currently be doing everything he can do to help Stoops/Cals recruit. However, I don't think it was the case this spring. Mitch's response to NIL will determine how he finishes his tenure as our AD. I hope he finishes strong!
My biggest problem with mitch is the support he gave the money cow his first ten years here, NOTHING extra for football while our competition in the SEC was loading up. Do you think the SEC's flood of money from football TV was caused by UK's TWO two win seasons and the five years without a bowl game or by the OTHER SEC schools that gave football the support it had earned? And there is no doubt in my mind that the killing of UK football was entirely due to the non-support he gave it his first ten years at UK while he used the money it had earned to pursue his precious cup, only behind two other SEC schools and eight nationally now, whoopee. Was it worth the destruction of the money cow, I have always claimed he would have had MORE money for the non-revenue sports IF he had given football the money it had EARNED. How much money did football lose in ticket sales, donations, bowl games etc from football coming in third for TWO years in the small state of Kentucky.
"They sposed to be SEC".
Excellent post.
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Other than capital projects, and probably not all of them, I think that's true.
It's a point we have discussed many times. I have said before, I don't think you understand the difference between capital and O&M. UK did not allow investment in the football stadium or practice facilities because they were large dollar projects and their bonding capacity was being used for the hospital. About all of the capital money UK spent on athletics during the hospital years were small projects that they could cover through donations. Our AD said numerous times publicly that football would get it's money when the hospital project was finished and capital was freed up. He was very up front about what was going on and yet people ignored what he was saying for some reason. Would UK's football program taken off sooner if it had had capital money for facilities improvement earlier? Maybe. Maybe not. Stoops is a big part of why we have risen. But it's moot point because UK didn't have the bonding capacity and MB didn't have donations that would pay for it without bonding. Trying to blame the AD for a bonding issue associated with the university building a billion dollar hospital doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.
Nice post, but the players that A&M, and THUG U have signed are NOT going to change schools when and IF the SLOW NCAA finally tries to enforce the rules.
So, you think a recruiting budget the same or less for 25 recruits vs the one for 5 or so is just fine? The recruiting room with the corner of a warehouse, the concrete floors, folding chairs, the folding projection screen vs BB's facilities were just fine? FACTS for you. The nearby city college recruits were making fun of our facilities, and who could disagree with them?
What has capital and O&M got to do with the vast difference in the support for the two sports, especially when despite the HUGE discrepancy in the NON-support football in 2010 (in the middle of our AD's starvation support) cleared $18,000,000 vs the program with the best support in the nation only clearing about $5,000,000.
Capital and O&M BS, what has that got to do with the incredible support difference between the money cow and the program our AD was afraid to touch? A good politician, I will give him that, but I hate politicians.
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I asked some questions AND gave you some FACTS to back them up. So where are your answers? The answer is there aren't any legitimate answers.
Just like there aren't any for the question I have asked hundreds of times, name ONE thing our AD did to improve football facilities in his first TEN years on the job. That is a full DECADE if you are wondering.
And what caused the TWO miserable seasons, the FIVE seasons without a bowl game AND the loss of hundreds of millions of dollars. It seems pretty simple to me, but it seems a lot of our fans can't figure it out.
Just like there aren't any for the question I have asked hundreds of times, name ONE thing our AD did to improve football facilities in his first TEN years on the job. That is a full DECADE if you are wondering.
And what caused the TWO miserable seasons, the FIVE seasons without a bowl game AND the loss of hundreds of millions of dollars. It seems pretty simple to me, but it seems a lot of our fans can't figure it out.
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You can in Tennessee, its state law. You need to come to a basic understanding. NIL will never be punished by the NCAA. You'll have a handful of idiotic schools like UK who self report like a boot licking hall monitor, the rest will ignore the money flow.
The NCAA can't do anything about it because if they try they will be immediately dragged into a class action suit for limiting the full value of players NIL. The NCAA would lose badly.
This is why Barney is a moron, well, a primary reason at the moment.
Yes, but not the major one, the major one was giving more support to the BB team with 13 players when football has 85 players AND makes a lot more money, And the lack of support for football his first ten years was only too obvious with very predictable results. But almost all of our fans seem very happy with the TWO two win seasons.
Who paid for the $40,000,000 football facility? Why did our AD have to borrow $120,000,000 dollars for the NECESSARY stadium, improvements AND why did they have to borrow another $60,000,000 to give to academics in order to get the loan? IF the OTHER SEC programs hadn't been about ten years ahead of us and started throwing us unbelievable amounts of money we would have had hell paying the $120,000,000M back, let alone the $60,000,000, in extortion money.
They didn't need a law. It was never illegal. It was only ever in violation of NCAA rules on eligibility. So by getting the executive order and the following law; all anyone did was grandstand and actually hurt the players in the process by limiting what deals they could make.
Pretty obvious imo Mitch caved on nil and went kicking and screaming. Combined with his staunch refusal to move forward with beer sales, weird handling (including silence) of the crod situation, and all around unusual absence of late; I really think he's on his way out.
I mean the same guy who jumped in the pool with the women's water polo team is nowhere to be seen around football and basketball. Pretty telling imo
What major projects were bonded for basketball during the same period?
You like to talk about the recruiting budget, but both Brooks and Joker addressed that publicly. They said they put in a budget request each year for recruiting and they have always received what they asked for. So if they thought they needed a larger recruiting budget it was incumbent upon them to ask for it. Why is it the ADs fault if basketball asks for a much larger recruiting budget than football asks for?
You love to bring up the recruiting room but it was part of the stadium renovation so it had to wait for bonding capacity.
Those are the facts, but they don't fit your narrative.
Imagine wanting to be like dirty lowlife programs like Tennessee and Louisville.
I guess my question would be how do you know what Mitch is doing behind the scenes? You are making a lot of assumptions without any direct knowledge. I do know UK announced a NIL clearinghouse where businesses can list their information and student athletes can list their contact information so they can connect to each other for NIL projects. That seems to be a very good mechanism for connecting people who want sponsor NIL deals with student athletes.
I think some of this is going to come down to the market we are in. UK is a small market team in a poor state. There may not be enough NIL money to go around. I have said before that NIL may not be a good thing for UK athletics. Time will tell. Of course if it isn't a good thing, instead of understanding the underlying dynamics that create the problem (market size and wealth), some will find it easier to blame the AD or coaching staff for not being creative enough to get NIL money to the athletes when in reality that has very little to do with it.
The NCAA probably doesn't have the balls for this, but just because state law says something is legal doesn't mean it's not a violation of NCAA rules and a school can do it and remain eligible for post season play. In other words, I don't think state law can dictate NCAA rules. That's not to say some NCAA rules can't be determined to be illegal, but I don't think a state can pass any law they want to give their teams an advantage and still have them be eligible for post season play. Lots of things are legal but against NCAA rules. The question is does the NCAA have the nads to enforce their rules? Many are skeptical that they do.
That first sentence isn't necessarily true. It's complicated but many times state law can override NCAA regulations. Does the NCAA have the balls for that fight, obviously not or they wouldn't have capitulated to NIL the way they did.
Harvard JSEL
harvardjsel.com
That's an interesting article. Thanks for posting it.That first sentence isn't necessarily true. It's complicated but many times state law can override NCAA regulations. Does the NCAA have the balls for that fight, obviously not or they wouldn't have capitulated to NIL the way they did.
Harvard JSEL
I'm not an attorney, but some of the arguments seems rather shallow, so I wonder exactly how state law and private organization rules interact. For example, Sagers argument is that California's law imposes no obligations on the NCAA in other states like the Nevada law did so it would stand where the Nevada law was overturned. That's simply not true. If California law could force the NCAA to allow players to be paid by third parties and those players must by law remain eligible to play, but in other states they can't, then the NCAA would be forced to change its rules in other states to effectively govern its member institutions. It's really no different than the reasoning behind overturning the Nevada law. Or at least it looks that way to me as a jailhouse lawyer, lol.
The article really doesn't address my question. Paying a player has never been illegal but it has been against NCAA rules and would cause the player to not be eligible and the school to perhaps not be eligible for post season play. There are a host of other rules schools and players must abide by to be eligible. None of which are illegal. So legality does not dictate NCAA rules. My question is why couldn't the NCAA just say if you want to pay players in California, fine, but we will ban your schools from post season play because it is a violation of our rules. We aren't saying you can't do that, but we are saying if you do, your school will not participate in post season tournaments because it is a violation of our rules. I'm not saying that's the path they should have gone down. It's more a consideration of where we are now. Paying a player to sign a national letter of intent isn't against the law in many places. I think some states included that in their state law so it would be in some states. But what would prevent the NCAA from preventing any team that pays players to sign from playing in the post season. They aren't stopping the practice, they are just saying it makes the team ineligible to compete. I wish someone would discuss how far a state can go to dictate NCAA rules. Perhaps it's a very grey area. It's bad policy in my opinion if a state can dictate the rules governing a private voluntary organization. Why doesn't Kentucky pass a law that we can pay players directly, they don't have to be academically eligible to play, they have 6 years of eligibility, etc? It would certainly give us a competitive advantage.
Complicated isn't it. Its a mess the NCAA has no stomach for at this point.
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