NBA's Mt. Rushmore of 'Empty Stats'

[gamecockcat]

With the recent announcement of Carmelo Anthony's retirement, it got me to thinking (always a dangerous thing) about players who accumulate empty stats for the majority of their career.

My nominations:
Carmelo Anthony
Russell Westbrook
Allen Iverson
Dominique Wilkins
James Harden

From one perspective, these players have all been excellent-to-great NBA players. However, you can't really say that they made their teammates better and, many times, would have really good seasons while the team floundered. Maybe it's not all their fault, but scoring 34 points while taking 31 shots and having 2 assists while their man scored 27 points, to me, is kind of the definition of empty stats.

 

[Smashcat]

Harden would certainly make almost everybody's top 5.

 

[Lempface]

I doubt any of them are too worried about it. Yeah, they may not have reached the pinnacle of their profession but they got to do what they loved, for the best parts of their lives, and made an absolutely shameful amount of money doing it. Sounds like a good gig to me.

 

[Dontworryboutit23]

I know he is still a young player but trae young has to be on here as well

 

[Lempface]

I know he is still a young player but trae young has to be on here as well

But it looks so cool when he makes a 45 footer!

 

[Dontworryboutit23]

But it looks so cool when he makes a 45 footer!

Yeah the one he makes out 10 attempts is awesome

 

[Jamal Mercer]

As a Pistons fan, Andre Drummond a few years back. With all his zero effort rebounds.

 

[Son_Of_Saul]

With the recent announcement of Carmelo Anthony's retirement, it got me to thinking (always a dangerous thing) about players who accumulate empty stats for the majority of their career.

My nominations:
Carmelo Anthony
Russell Westbrook
Allen Iverson
Dominique Wilkins
James Harden

From one perspective, these players have all been excellent-to-great NBA players. However, you can't really say that they made their teammates better and, many times, would have really good seasons while the team floundered. Maybe it's not all their fault, but scoring 34 points while taking 31 shots and having 2 assists while their man scored 27 points, to me, is kind of the definition of empty stats.

Put Iverson with the Lakers and Shaq instead of Kobe during those title years, and I'd venture to say they win almost as many titles. I can't say the same thing about the other guys on your list. Iverson had to shoot that much because he never had elite teammates.

Your overall point is valid, though.

 

[wildcatsboston1984]

With the recent announcement of Carmelo Anthony's retirement, it got me to thinking (always a dangerous thing) about players who accumulate empty stats for the majority of their career.

My nominations:
Carmelo Anthony
Russell Westbrook
Allen Iverson
Dominique Wilkins
James Harden

From one perspective, these players have all been excellent-to-great NBA players. However, you can't really say that they made their teammates better and, many times, would have really good seasons while the team floundered. Maybe it's not all their fault, but scoring 34 points while taking 31 shots and having 2 assists while their man scored 27 points, to me, is kind of the definition of empty stats.

That team Iverson took the Finals was garbage as far as the talent goes. Starting lineup in the playoffs was Iverson, an old Mutombo, Tyrone Hill, and then some combo of Aaron McKie, Tyrone Hill, Eric Snow, George Lynch, and Jumaine Jones.

Mutombo was still good, but there’s no way in hell a guy like him should be your clear cut second best player on a Finals team.

Even in a weak Eastern Conference it’s remarkable that roster got to the Finals and even won a game against a Lakers team featuring peak Shaq along with near peak Kobe. Some of the losses were even competitive.

 

[Doodah859]

With the recent announcement of Carmelo Anthony's retirement, it got me to thinking (always a dangerous thing) about players who accumulate empty stats for the majority of their career.

My nominations:
Carmelo Anthony
Russell Westbrook
Allen Iverson
Dominique Wilkins
James Harden

From one perspective, these players have all been excellent-to-great NBA players. However, you can't really say that they made their teammates better and, many times, would have really good seasons while the team floundered. Maybe it's not all their fault, but scoring 34 points while taking 31 shots and having 2 assists while their man scored 27 points, to me, is kind of the definition of empty stats.

Loved Iverson and Dominique, both played on some poor teams . Iverson did drag his team
am two the finals, and Can't forget Dominique and Larry Bird and their duel

 

[Montana81]

Iverson doesn’t belong. He spent nearly a decade as the only thing keeping the sixers in the playoff picture.

 

[ralphdaltonfan]

I'd argue Dominique is getting a really rough inclusion on this list. He was in a conference where Larry Bird and Celtics Dr. J and Sixers until mid 80's and Isiah Thomas and Pistons--hell the Bucks had more talent in 80's then Nique had as teammates in the 80's. Who was the next best player on his team? Tree Rollins? John Battle? Randy Wittman? Doc Rivers? Dan Roundfield? He would push Boston to make it a series due to being so talented. I still think he was robbed in 2 Slam Dunk contests too-MJ in Chicago and gifting it to a little hobbit (Spud Webb, another teammate of ? ability) because everyone loves little people. The Human Highlight Film was must see TV and kept the Hawks relevant an helped make the NBA watchable in the 80's when he and MJ were in a tier beneath the established teams who were dominant like Boston/Philly/Detroit.

 

[gamecockcat]

Iverson doesn’t belong. He spent nearly a decade as the only thing keeping the sixers in the playoff picture.

We talkin' 'bout PRACTICE!

Iverson was one I waffled on. He was always surrounded by sub-par talent (maybe no one wanted to play with him?) but was what is nicely termed a 'volume scorer', i.e., took a bunch of shots, didn't hit a high %. Don't remember him having big assist totals or noted as a defender. I'd agree he'd be on the bubble but could still be considered, imo.

 

[ukfan1622]

With the recent announcement of Carmelo Anthony's retirement, it got me to thinking (always a dangerous thing) about players who accumulate empty stats for the majority of their career.

My nominations:
Carmelo Anthony
Russell Westbrook
Allen Iverson
Dominique Wilkins
James Harden

From one perspective, these players have all been excellent-to-great NBA players. However, you can't really say that they made their teammates better and, many times, would have really good seasons while the team floundered. Maybe it's not all their fault, but scoring 34 points while taking 31 shots and having 2 assists while their man scored 27 points, to me, is kind of the definition of empty stats.

I don't think the last three names belong on the same list as the first two...

 

[IFerg1969]

I'd argue Dominique is getting a really rough inclusion on this list. He was in a conference where Larry Bird and Celtics Dr. J and Sixers until mid 80's and Isiah Thomas and Pistons--hell the Bucks had more talent in 80's then Nique had as teammates in the 80's. Who was the next best player on his team? Tree Rollins? John Battle? Randy Wittman? Doc Rivers? Dan Roundfield? He would push Boston to make it a series due to being so talented. I still think he was robbed in 2 Slam Dunk contests too-MJ in Chicago and gifting it to a little hobbit (Spud Webb, another teammate of ? ability) because everyone loves little people. The Human Highlight Film was must see TV and kept the Hawks relevant an helped make the NBA watchable in the 80's when he and MJ were in a tier beneath the established teams who were dominant like Boston/Philly/Detroit.

I agree, Nique doesn't belong on this list. I grew up in Augusta in the 80s and was a big Hawks fan. Loved me some DW. Lenny Wilkins trading him for Danny Manning when DW was playing some of his best all around and most unselfish basketball for a really good team that year pissed me off to no end. Everyone knew Danny Manning would be gone the next year and he was. A lot like AI, the Hawks were only respectable many years because of how good Dominique was.

 

[king of cali]

We talkin' 'bout PRACTICE!

Iverson was one I waffled on. He was always surrounded by sub-par talent (maybe no one wanted to play with him?) but was what is nicely termed a 'volume scorer', i.e., took a bunch of shots, didn't hit a high %. Don't remember him having big assist totals or noted as a defender. I'd agree he'd be on the bubble but could still be considered, imo.

Lol, Iverson was a 5’10 scorer on a team without any credible second options. So his shooting percentage may have never been high, but his teams were always competitive and in the playoffs. You’re no doing much of anything when you’re depending on George Lynch, Eric Snow and Raja Bell for secondary scoring. The fact that Iverson took that team to the finals certainly shows that he wasn’t about empty stats.

I’d argue that for a few of the others too. You can say Harden, but his teams were at the top of the western conference and lost back to back years to all time great Golden State teams.

 

[chroix]

Sprewell
Kidd
Westbrook
Starbury
Penny

 

[ralphdaltonfan]

I'll throw a name out there which will be controversial but he's vastly overrated based on what younger people think of him that never saw him play--Kevin Garnett.

He was "The Franchise" in Minnesota. They made it past the 1st Round 1 time and that had more to do with Sprewell and Cassell joining the team then "Big Ticket". He was perfectly suited to do what he did in Boston--be a 3rd wheel to 2 actual frontline players in Pierce/Allen. KG talks a lot so people think he's tough. He was a punk when it mattered in big moments. If you can believe this-in a Game 6 in LA--BOTH Kobe Bryant and Shaq were out of the game to start the 4th Quarter because of foul trouble (yes, the Lakers didn't always get the calls contrary to popular belief--specifically when Ken Mauer (related to Joe Mauer and Minnesota Native) was on the call. Slava Medvedenko PUNKED Garnett up and down the court. I've seen KG pass the ball up to Terrell Brandon, Dean Garrett, Anthony Peeler, Wally Szczerbiak, Terry Porter several times when not being doubled and having an advantage to decide the fate of a playoff game. Again, I'm not saying you have to win the West because Lakers/Spurs were running things and Kings/Mavs/Suns were respectable too, but to advance 1 time beyond the 1st Round (remember a lot of his career was also best of 5 in 1st Round) in entire time as "The Franchise/Big Ticket" in the West? You need to be knocked down the pantheon you are placed. I still argue with fans in MN that Rasheed Wallace was superior to KG as a player and far tougher as well. KG's rep has grown like people think that Uncut Gems was actually how he was--no--he's the type who would be highly shredded by fans/media if he played in the climate of social media we see.

He got a ring as the 3rd wheel and Allen went on to prove his value and had prior to then in Milwaukee as did Pierce with Celtics prior to Garnett. But KG? He's become a mythical legend amongst people due to being engaging on Podcasts and Hype videos that show him scowl. He's a pioneer for getting guys to go straight to the NBA--no doubt, A HOF player? Absolutely. But he's got this status as a "made man" when really if you actually watched him play, he was a punk in tough moments and only got into it physically with little guys and white guys. He got kicked out of Mauldin, SC for a racial incident and moved to Farragut and claims Chicago like he's Tupac claiming Death Row when he was a little Twink dancing around before/during Digital Underground.

KG was a great team guy and really really good player. But the pantheon he's placed is complete BS.

 

[KMKAT]

I disagree with most of these for the simple reason that its very hard to win a title without 3-4 superstar options.
The exception in my mind is the Bulls. After Scotty and MJ, Kukoc or Steve Kerr? Really?

The Celtics had a HOF lineup, the Lakers had a HOF lineup. The Warriors had 3-4.
Without COVID, Lebron doesn't have his latest title. And you know LeFraud was always trying to stack the deck in his favor.
While there are exceptions, it takes several options. So there's only about 5 teams today that have a chance to win the title.

There are those who put up empty numbers, like Pistol Pete. but it takes several options to not have empty stats.
And Trae Young is just another Iverson with maybe a run or 2 in the playoffs during his career. I don't think anyone wants to play 2nd fiddle.

 

[kelzer]

We talkin' 'bout PRACTICE!

Iverson was one I waffled on. He was always surrounded by sub-par talent (maybe no one wanted to play with him?) but was what is nicely termed a 'volume scorer', i.e., took a bunch of shots, didn't hit a high %. Don't remember him having big assist totals or noted as a defender. I'd agree he'd be on the bubble but could still be considered, imo.

In 2005 Jason Kidd, who had led the league in assists several times including the previous year, averaged 8.3 APG. That was AI's best year, averaging 7.9. I'm too lazy to go figure it out, but I think Iverson was in the top 5 in the league quite a few years. Probably would have averaged more with a better surrounding cast. Not to mention that there were many seasons where he played the 2 and somebody else was at the point (Eric Snow, Andre Miller).

Defensively, he was pretty small (smallest 6'0" I can remember) so struggled a bit guarding bigger guards, but managed to lead the league in steals 3 years in a row and had a high average for most of his career.

 

[ralphdaltonfan]

I disagree with most of these for the simple reason that its very hard to win a title without 3-4 superstar options.
The exception in my mind is the Bulls. After Scotty and MJ, Kukoc or Steve Kerr? Really?

The Celtics had a HOF lineup, the Lakers had a HOF lineup. The Warriors had 3-4.
Without COVID, Lebron doesn't have his latest title. And you know LeFraud was always trying to stack the deck in his favor.
While there are exceptions, it takes several options. So there's only about 5 teams today that have a chance to win the title.

There are those who put up empty numbers, like Pistol Pete. but it takes several options to not have empty stats.
And Trae Young is just another Iverson with maybe a run or 2 in the playoffs during his career. I don't think anyone wants to play 2nd fiddle.

Who did you see beating the '20 Lakers? It's not like they were the 8th seed. They were #1 in the West and would've had homecourt throughout.

 

[UK90]

With the recent announcement of Carmelo Anthony's retirement, it got me to thinking (always a dangerous thing) about players who accumulate empty stats for the majority of their career.

My nominations:
Carmelo Anthony
Russell Westbrook
Allen Iverson
Dominique Wilkins
James Harden

From one perspective, the

The 01 season alone should forever remove Iverson from consideration for this list. Not sure any team in history has ever overachieved more than the 01 Sixers ...and they did it nearly entirely by riding on Iverson's back.

I don't see how you can say that someone who pushed that motley Sixer roster to the best record in the East and the NBA Finals didn't make his teammates look better. Without him, that bunch would've been utterly gawdawful. AI was so good that season that it was scary.

 

[KMKAT]

Well, I don't look at it that way. I look at it that LeBron didn't have to go to any visiting arena to steal a game. He never had to go on the road to Miami and road games matter in the playoffs.

 

[kelzer]

I disagree with most of these for the simple reason that its very hard to win a title without 3-4 superstar options.
The exception in my mind is the Bulls. After Scotty and MJ, Kukoc or Steve Kerr? Really?

Steve Kerr may not have been a superstar, but he was one of the best shooters to ever play the game. Though nobody back then shot the volume we see today, his best year he shot over 52% from 3, and his career average is over 45% (what Steph shot in his best seasons). I believe that's the best career % ever.

He may have only been a role player, but he was a hell of a role player.

 

[king of cali]

Well, I don't look at it that way. I look at it that LeBron didn't have to go to any visiting arena to steal a game. He never had to go on the road to Miami and road games matter in the playoffs.

Hence his point. The Lakers had home court advantage, so they wouldn’t have had to steal any games on the road.

 

[KMKAT]

Hence his point. The Lakers had home court advantage, so they wouldn’t have had to steal any games on the road.

We'll never know.

 

[shaudyshaud]

I always hated the empty stats and stat padder argument . You’re basically penalizing a guy for his team not being great .

By this logic than our own Demarcus Cousins would be towards the top of the list . Also Tracy Mcgrady . Both are my fav players so I’m not rocking with calling guys empty stat players .

 

[STL_Cat]

I agree with the others that disagreed on Iverson. That dude carried Aaron McKie and Eric Snow to the NBA Finals.

 

[KMKAT]

Steve Kerr may not have been a superstar, but he was one of the best shooters to ever play the game. Though nobody back then shot the volume we see today, his best year he shot over 52% from 3, and his career average is over 45% (what Steph shot in his best seasons). I believe that's the best career % ever.

He may have only been a role player, but he was a hell of a role player.

Without Jordan, how many titles did he fight for? Reminds me of Popovich. How many titles did blowhard Popovich fight for w/o superstar Duncan? Zero.

Kerr is a limited PG and would be no one's 3rd option anywhere contending for a title.

 

[ralphdaltonfan]

Well, I don't look at it that way. I look at it that LeBron didn't have to go to any visiting arena to steal a game. He never had to go on the road to Miami and road games matter in the playoffs.

Ever actually watched him play instead of just not liking him? I'm not a LeBron stan...but guy has won a lot of big games on the Road in the postseason. Be it carrying garbage teams in Cleveland to the Finals in his youth or in Miami against Boston in ECF (infamous Game 6 to get it back to Miami for Game 7) or the Game 7 in Oakland against the 73-9 Warriors. Those last 2 are big enough alone.

And even if you believed that he was that way, they had homecourt and that Lakers team was pretty damn good. Lebron at 34/35, AD was a monster because he didn't have to bang with big men all game-had Howard/McGee to let him roam and then take on guys in 4th quarter, they had a deep 2nd unit, guys played to their roles and they would wear down and maul teams.

 

[kelzer]

Without Jordan, how many titles did he fight for? Reminds me of Popovich. How many titles did blowhard Popovich fight for w/o superstar Duncan? Zero.

Kerr is a limited PG and would be no one's 3rd option anywhere contending for a title.

My guess is you don't like either Kerr or Popovich because of their politics. No sense discussing further.

 

[ralphdaltonfan]

I always hated the empty stats and stat padder argument . You’re basically penalizing a guy for his team not being great .

By this logic than our own Demarcus Cousins would be towards the top of the list . Also Tracy Mcgrady . Both are my fav players so I’m not rocking with calling guys empty stat players .

At the Pro level, agree but I've seen some guys in CBB and HS....they are going to score 30 pts and take 30-35 FGA's to get those pts and their team loses by 40 and they are smiling thinking they played "great".

Stats can often be manipulated to make novice fans think someone is great at something they aren't. For instance, I was an AI fan but he was a marginal to subpar defensive player but got talked up because he got a lot of steals. Think he was even 2 time BE DPOY in College and steals are something that are often the sign of a gambler and breaks down your entire defense, specifically from your guards in the half court or come against overwhelmed opponents. You don't beat elite teams with guards going after a ton of steals.

If you want to look how people look at numbers to value someone--the media and average fans crap all over Bam Adebayo. "Why do they pay him so much? He's so overrated....." he's in his 2nd NBA Finals and the organization and teammates value him as much as anyone in the franchise. But several media guys mock his numbers without understanding what he does for everyone and how he plays injured, etc..the things that matter to FO/Coaches/Teammates.

 

[FtWorthCat]

Pete Maravich, for college and pro.

 

[Doodah859]

I'll throw a name out there which will be controversial but he's vastly overrated based on what younger people think of him that never saw him play--Kevin Garnett.

He was "The Franchise" in Minnesota. They made it past the 1st Round 1 time and that had more to do with Sprewell and Cassell joining the team then "Big Ticket". He was perfectly suited to do what he did in Boston--be a 3rd wheel to 2 actual frontline players in Pierce/Allen. KG talks a lot so people think he's tough. He was a punk when it mattered in big moments. If you can believe this-in a Game 6 in LA--BOTH Kobe Bryant and Shaq were out of the game to start the 4th Quarter because of foul trouble (yes, the Lakers didn't always get the calls contrary to popular belief--specifically when Ken Mauer (related to Joe Mauer and Minnesota Native) was on the call. Slava Medvedenko PUNKED Garnett up and down the court. I've seen KG pass the ball up to Terrell Brandon, Dean Garrett, Anthony Peeler, Wally Szczerbiak, Terry Porter several times when not being doubled and having an advantage to decide the fate of a playoff game. Again, I'm not saying you have to win the West because Lakers/Spurs were running things and Kings/Mavs/Suns were respectable too, but to advance 1 time beyond the 1st Round (remember a lot of his career was also best of 5 in 1st Round) in entire time as "The Franchise/Big Ticket" in the West? You need to be knocked down the pantheon you are placed. I still argue with fans in MN that Rasheed Wallace was superior to KG as a player and far tougher as well. KG's rep has grown like people think that Uncut Gems was actually how he was--no--he's the type who would be highly shredded by fans/media if he played in the climate of social media we see.

He got a ring as the 3rd wheel and Allen went on to prove his value and had prior to then in Milwaukee as did Pierce with Celtics prior to Garnett. But KG? He's become a mythical legend amongst people due to being engaging on Podcasts and Hype videos that show him scowl. He's a pioneer for getting guys to go straight to the NBA--no doubt, A HOF player? Absolutely. But he's got this status as a "made man" when really if you actually watched him play, he was a punk in tough moments and only got into it physically with little guys and white guys. He got kicked out of Mauldin, SC for a racial incident and moved to Farragut and claims Chicago like he's Tupac claiming Death Row when he was a little Twink dancing around before/during Digital Underground.

KG was a great team guy and really really good player. But the pantheon he's placed is complete BS.

I think you're right about Rasheed. If he would've really looked for his shot more he could've been one of the greats .

 

[drcats2013]

Kevin Love

 

[drcats2013]

Jerry Stackhouse is a great one

 

[Blueheart32]

I'd argue Dominique is getting a really rough inclusion on this list. He was in a conference where Larry Bird and Celtics Dr. J and Sixers until mid 80's and Isiah Thomas and Pistons--hell the Bucks had more talent in 80's then Nique had as teammates in the 80's. Who was the next best player on his team? Tree Rollins? John Battle? Randy Wittman? Doc Rivers? Dan Roundfield? He would push Boston to make it a series due to being so talented. I still think he was robbed in 2 Slam Dunk contests too-MJ in Chicago and gifting it to a little hobbit (Spud Webb, another teammate of ? ability) because everyone loves little people. The Human Highlight Film was must see TV and kept the Hawks relevant an helped make the NBA watchable in the 80's when he and MJ were in a tier beneath the established teams who were dominant like Boston/Philly/Detroit.

Dominique is my all time favorite player and you are spot on

 

[Fox2monk]

With the recent announcement of Carmelo Anthony's retirement, it got me to thinking (always a dangerous thing) about players who accumulate empty stats for the majority of their career.

My nominations:
Carmelo Anthony
Russell Westbrook
Allen Iverson
Dominique Wilkins
James Harden

From one perspective, these players have all been excellent-to-great NBA players. However, you can't really say that they made their teammates better and, many times, would have really good seasons while the team floundered. Maybe it's not all their fault, but scoring 34 points while taking 31 shots and having 2 assists while their man scored 27 points, to me, is kind of the definition of empty stats.

I’d say McGrady over Iverson. At least Iverson carried a team to the finals.

 

[Fox2monk]

I think you're right about Rasheed. If he would've really looked for his shot more he could've been one of the greats .

Rasheed was a boss.

 

[Fox2monk]

Sprewell
Kidd
Westbrook
Starbury
Penny

Not Kidd, he actually led some really good teams to the finals.