What are your thoughts on Selden? He was RSCI #13?
I think Lee is a load to handle in the post and has a nice hook.
Monk-Bridges package deal?
- Thread starter Cat Ballou
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What are your thoughts on Selden? He was RSCI #13?
I think Lee is a load to handle in the post and has a nice hook.
I think he is very nice player. But I think the media overbilled him and thus some hype did set in that wasn't fair to him. He's a great 3-4 yr KU player. If he has a good year, I think he goes. But if he stays for a sr a year I think he will be drafted as well.
I have many times. I'm not saying he's an offensive juggernaut. He's a fun watch.
A load to handle in the post? Name one time we have posted Lee and he scored?
Put backs? Yes he can be outstanding, he even drove the ball for a basket in the tourney last year. Lots of energy on defense.
Load to handle in the paint? Hook shot? You have Lee confused with someone else, we all would love to see him develop a post game. Stop acting like you know our players.
Once could argue that it's just as likely that anyone could improve in four years as a 2nd tier talent as it could be for the one year stud. Cal has never screwed up the process for elite players. Can K say the same thing?
Your guys had a longer period of time to develop, and so their development should have been more apparent. K should get credit for that, but your notion that 2nd tier talent developing over four years is somehow greater than one year development for OAD players is lacking in any real sort of meaningful base.
Would you rather have a 4 year player who could be a bench/practice player in the NBA or have a pro career overseas or a one and done talent who would get drafted, but spend 3 years developing before he made any significant contribution to an NBA team?
Why can't people just admit that Cal is great at developing players?
Quit with the "yeah, but..." stuff.
He is the best in the business. He is not 100% efficient (no coach is), but he doesn't miss the mark very often.
If you can't admit that, then you just don't know basketball.
Quit with the "yeah, but..." stuff.
He is the best in the business. He is not 100% efficient (no coach is), but he doesn't miss the mark very often.
If you can't admit that, then you just don't know basketball.
Don't forget Wayne Selden, projected lotto pick coming into college, now unlikely to be drafted.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ X 1,000,000
Bill Self absolutely has showed ZERO ability to get elite recruits playing at a high level in college.
How do you know that he won't?
I don't understand the thought process that only Calipari is infallible when it comes to getting highly ranked players drafted. Some kids don't develop as fast as others, while others are simply overrated coming out of high school, such as Selden and the Harrison twins.
Maybe you've missed his 2008 national title and runner up performance in 2012 (clearly, we ran out of time
). Certainly, two is greater than zero? I will, however, admit that I am old and may not understand the "New Math" of the younger generation.
What is really under-appreciated about Cal is how he develops his guys mentally to bring out the best in them, build their confidence, and prepare them for the NBA. WCS is perfect example.
I actually think that's why Cal wasn't particularly successful with the Harrison's. Because of their somewhat arrogant personalities, he just couldn't get into their heads. I'll never forget reading a interview with Andrew Harrison about midway through last year, where he said something like he and Cal had finally started to trust each other, or something like that.
This guy recruited you for years and you've played for him for a year and a half, and you're only now starting to trust him?
I actually think that's why Cal wasn't particularly successful with the Harrison's. Because of their somewhat arrogant personalities, he just couldn't get into their heads. I'll never forget reading a interview with Andrew Harrison about midway through last year, where he said something like he and Cal had finally started to trust each other, or something like that.
This guy recruited you for years and you've played for him for a year and a half, and you're only now starting to trust him?
I was mainly just tweaking you. I actually (sort of) agree with you. No coach was going to improve Selden's shot and ballhandling, no coach was going to make the Harrisons (or Dakari Johnson) more athletic.
That said, I trust Cal to find ways to get his best talent on the floor, while I think Self is more of a system guy, more naturally conservative, and finds excuses for playing older, less talented guys over his more talented freshmen. You saw it with Selby, you saw it with Oubre and Alexander. Cal would have found ways to keep guys like that on the floor, Self found reasons to keep them off. BTW, I think Roy Williams is similar. Self and Williams aren't comfortable relying on freshmen in the same way that Cal is, and it shows.
Cousins was projected as a late first rounder when he arrived on UK's campus.
He was another big guy that had a reputation for wanting to play on the perimeter too much and had serious questions about his attitude.
All we heard about Anthony Davis is how raw he was and how the junior Henson at UNC was going to be better.
Davis had arguably the best freshman season of all time.
Noel had just been shredded by Jon Givony at Draft Express during an off season camp in Colorado. If he hadn't blew his knee he almost certainly goes #1 over Bennett.
He was another big guy that had a reputation for wanting to play on the perimeter too much and had serious questions about his attitude.
All we heard about Anthony Davis is how raw he was and how the junior Henson at UNC was going to be better.
Davis had arguably the best freshman season of all time.
Noel had just been shredded by Jon Givony at Draft Express during an off season camp in Colorado. If he hadn't blew his knee he almost certainly goes #1 over Bennett.
We have won many games with our OAD's, that is what we care about. Did I miss something or is that just a dumb question?
Why would we prefer any situation for a kid in the NBA? We wish all of our players the best of luck.
If I was forced to give you an answer I would say OAD because if he played for us and was OAD he received a huge guaranteed contract and is doing very well, having guys like Selby and Alexander washing his cars.
Maybe you've missed his 2008 national title and runner up performance in 2012 (clearly, we ran out of time
Don't even start about the NCAA tournament because Bill Self has been very disappointing. If it were not for all his Big 12 titles (yawn) & much of your fanbase would be ballistic. Of course, if he were at UK we would have already pushed him out.
I'd prefer 4 final 4's, a national championship, a national runner-up...in the last 6 seasons compared to your 1st & 2nd round exits to mid-major schools
Davis didn't step on campus as a world-beater. As a matter of fact I remember being a little disappointed after the first couple of games. It was obvious Cal had him working on his shot-blocking capabilities, defensive prowess, because that's what set him apart.
You could see his confidence grow game-by-game, and it was the UNC game where he really emerged as one of the best players in the country, and he continued to improve after that. Towns had a similar trajectory, with the LSU game being his break-out game.
Contrast that to Okafor, who was basically the same player with the same polished offense and mediocre defense at the end of the year as he was at the beginning of the year.
Or better yet, contrast it to Cliff Alexander, who got jerked off the floor and benched every time he made a mistake for two guys in Lucas and Traylor who would never see the floor at UK. Whereas you could see the confidence of Davis/Towns grow throughout the year, you could see Cliff's shrink as Self played mind games with him.
He did the same thing with Oubre early, although Oubre apparently finally got out of his doghouse and started to show his talent. He lost at least a month of exposure and development though sitting the bench, and that early drag is probably what kept him out of the lottery. But it's Cal, not Self, that's supposed to be an egotistical ass.
You could see his confidence grow game-by-game, and it was the UNC game where he really emerged as one of the best players in the country, and he continued to improve after that. Towns had a similar trajectory, with the LSU game being his break-out game.
Contrast that to Okafor, who was basically the same player with the same polished offense and mediocre defense at the end of the year as he was at the beginning of the year.
Or better yet, contrast it to Cliff Alexander, who got jerked off the floor and benched every time he made a mistake for two guys in Lucas and Traylor who would never see the floor at UK. Whereas you could see the confidence of Davis/Towns grow throughout the year, you could see Cliff's shrink as Self played mind games with him.
He did the same thing with Oubre early, although Oubre apparently finally got out of his doghouse and started to show his talent. He lost at least a month of exposure and development though sitting the bench, and that early drag is probably what kept him out of the lottery. But it's Cal, not Self, that's supposed to be an egotistical ass.
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By the way, back to the OP's original point.
I think Marcus Lee returns next season, so Cal is set with or without Giles. Put Lee - Humphries - SKJ -Wynyard -Bridges in the front line and you're good. Giles is undoubtedly better than all of them, but he's not Anthony Davis, and although he's a game-changer, I'd be more worried if he was an elite defensive player as well.
The question then becomes whether a guard and wing combination of Fox-Monk-Bridges-Simmons-Mulder-Matthews would be enough to offset any team with a dominant big man like Giles and a plethora of high level guards like Jackson-Kennard-Jones ( I think Thornton and Allen might leave after this season).
Thoughts?
I think Marcus Lee returns next season, so Cal is set with or without Giles. Put Lee - Humphries - SKJ -Wynyard -Bridges in the front line and you're good. Giles is undoubtedly better than all of them, but he's not Anthony Davis, and although he's a game-changer, I'd be more worried if he was an elite defensive player as well.
The question then becomes whether a guard and wing combination of Fox-Monk-Bridges-Simmons-Mulder-Matthews would be enough to offset any team with a dominant big man like Giles and a plethora of high level guards like Jackson-Kennard-Jones ( I think Thornton and Allen might leave after this season).
Thoughts?
Any pro player worth his salt will tell you he is continuing to develop. But....in answer to your question:
Anthony Davis
John Wall
DeMarcus Cousins
Eric Bledsoe
Terrence Jones
Michael Kidd-Gilchrist
Brandon Knight
Patrick Patterson
Archie Goodwin
all were/are significant contributors within one year of being drafted. I didn't include Nerlens Noel or Julius Randle due to the injuries both sustained which prevented them from playing their rookie seasons.
This year, we had four players taken in the lottery - with Karl Anthony Towns at the #1 pick. WCS, Lyles and Booker will all be expected to contribute from day one given their draft positions. Only five of the players listed (Wall, Cousins, Bledsoe, Noel and Goodwin) do not have a FF.
Can you point to specific players that haven't progressed as well as most prospect sites thought they might? Sure. But there are mighty few in Calipari's UK tenure to point to. Obviously, no one is perfect. However, Calipari's track record among getting McDonald's All-Americans (ie, elite prospects) drafted is second-to-none. No one else is close, in fact.
KU's McDonald's All-American list:
Xavier Henry (2009)
Josh Selby (2010)
Perry Ellis (2012)
Wayne Selden, Jr. (2013)
Andrew Wiggins (2013)
Cliff Alexander (2014)
Only Henry and Wiggins were drafted in the first round. That's 33% success rate with elite prospects getting drafted in the first-round. Too, according to Draft Express, neither Ellis nor Selden is among the top 60 prospects in the 2016 NBA draft. We'll get to success among the draftees later in the thread.
Now, let's look at UK's McDonald's All-American list:
DeMarcus Cousins (2009)
Brandon Knight (2010)
Terrence Jones (2010)
Doron Lamb (2010)
Anthony Davis (2011)
Kyle Wiltjer (2011)
Marquis Teague (2011)
Michael Kidd-Gilchrist (2011)
Archie Goodwin (2012)
Alex Poythress (2012)
Dakari Johnson (2013)
Julius Randle (2013)
Aaron Harrison (2013)
Andrew Harrison (2013)
Marcus Lee (2013)
James Young (2013)
Karl-Anthony Towns (2014)
Trey Lyles (2014)
Devin Booker (2014)
Tyler Ulis (2014)
Of the 16 draft-eligible players on the list, 9 were drafted in the lottery and another three were first-round picks. That's a 75% success rate. Adding to that, (again, according to Draft Express) Ulis and Lee are likely to be first-round picks as soon as this season, while Poythress is slated to be a second-rounder.
At this point, then, Calipari is more than twice as likely to develop elite prospects into NBA first-rounders.
Now, perhaps Self is better, like Pitino and others have argued, with developing "lesser" prospects who are willing to buy into the collegiate system and become better pros. Again, I'd argue Calipari's UK track record against anyone in the history of the game. Only Wooden's early 70's juggernauts are close.
Since the 2010 NBA Draft, Self has developed the following KU players into NBA draftees:
Cole Aldrich (2011)
Xavier Henry (2011)
Ben McLemore (2014)
Marcus Morris (2012)
Markieff Morris (2012)
Thomas Robinson (2013)
Tyshawn Taylor (2013)
Andrew Wiggins (2015)
Jeff Withey (2014)
The following were drafted/ signed, but are now out of the league:
Josh Selby (2012)
That's a solid list for just about any school. Two prospective NBA players per year is certainly something to be proud of. For the most part, however, Jayhawk alums have been largely disappointing as pros. Only Jeff Withey and Markieff Morris have outperformed their draft status (according to VORP). Too, Wiggins and the enigmatic Morris are also the best players the Jayhawks have developed. Neither is considered anywhere near an NBA All-Star level talent. McLemore is a starter as well, but, really, the rest of the KU NBA alumni are the very definition of flotsam-- quickly forgotten or ignored as anything more than a trivia question. (Obviously, Joel Embiid isn't counted, as he hasn't yet played game one.)
Meanwhile, Kentucky's produced three All-Stars (Wall, Cousins, and Davis) and eight other draftees that have provided positive VORP over their respective draft position. Not only that, Calipari's Kentucky alums include eight NBA starters (as of last season) and another that is a major contributor off the bench.
In short, it's a pretty easy case to make: if you're an elite prospect with aspirations of making serious money in the draft and impacting the NBA, Kentucky is the place to be.
No one is arguing the amount of players Calipari is putting into the NBA. However, Calipari's successes come from a pool of sure fire one and done players who would have been NBA draft locks for the most part wherever they chose to go to school. That's because Calipari recruits and can lock better players. It's a flawed argument.
I don't see Lee vein here next year. He will get a lot of playing time. Big man, great defense, decent offense, he won't be here.
Just like Selby, Seldon, and Alexander? You argument is not full proof my good man.
We have yet to see any offense out of Marcus yet. If he develops some posts moves or a 10 footer this season it will be very interesting to see what the NBA thinks of him.
I think what most Kentucky fans take exception to is rival fans who want to give Cal ZERO credit for the success/development of any of his players, basically the "Cal just rolls out the ball" brigade.
As a Kentucky fan that has been here for the duration, all I can say is that Cal's "players first" mantra isn't just a catch-phrase - he means it, and he follows through on it, honestly - sometimes to the detriment of the W-L record.
I think there are a lot of fans (and basketball pundits) who felt Kentucky would have been better off last year if Ulis/Booker were the primary guards - but Cal showed immense loyalty to the Harrison twins and tried his best to feature them and improve their draft stock. That may be somewhat hard to swallow if all you care about is winning, but if you truly care about the future of these kids who come to UK and wear the blue & white, it's hard to criticize. Personally, I'm on Cal's side.
As a Kentucky fan that has been here for the duration, all I can say is that Cal's "players first" mantra isn't just a catch-phrase - he means it, and he follows through on it, honestly - sometimes to the detriment of the W-L record.
I think there are a lot of fans (and basketball pundits) who felt Kentucky would have been better off last year if Ulis/Booker were the primary guards - but Cal showed immense loyalty to the Harrison twins and tried his best to feature them and improve their draft stock. That may be somewhat hard to swallow if all you care about is winning, but if you truly care about the future of these kids who come to UK and wear the blue & white, it's hard to criticize. Personally, I'm on Cal's side.
There's the "yeah, but..." that rival fans want to use.
What about Orton and Bledsoe? They weren't considered OAD's and they were first rounders?
What about WCS, who went from top 40-ish to lottery?
What about Miller and Liggins who were 4-stars that developed into draft picks?
What about Harrellson, who went from a 3-star role player to a starter on a Final Four team and got drafted?
What about the UMass and Memphis guys he got drafted that weren't OAD and weren't sure-fire draft picks?
Bottom line: Cal doesn't get the credit he deserves as a coach/developer, mainly because he is such a great recruiter.
How come he hasn't developed more non-OAD level guys at UK? The simple answer that people want to ignore is that he hasn't had to. When he has had those guys, and had to play them, they turn out overachieving like Harrellson and Miller.
Nobody outside of BBN will acknowledge what Cal is able to do when it comes to developing talent.
I still do not see Cal risking a championship. We fans value offense. Cal values defense over everything else.
He chose 2 6'5 guards that led the team to a title game the previous year and were undefeated the entire season over 2 freshmen who were not as good defensively.
(You are about to pick up a couple of real "fans" pretty quick with that notion, glad I have them on ignore. Cut Nets in 1..2..3..)
Obviously, it's a controversial, arguable point. What I think is not arguable is that Cal is immensely loyal to his players. He is going to do his best to feature Alex this year, and Lee. That's a pretty important consideration when you have rival coaches trying to argue that Cal will recruit over you. He's going to do his best to get these guys drafted, but he can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear.
Personally - I expect that of him - not if it means losing a championship obviously, but I want him to make getting these guys to the league a priority.
fans who champion a coaches ability to "develop" players are typically fans of programs that lose the games that matter the most. raise all the banners you want for have the best X's and O's or development coach.....i dont care. i care about real banners for real titles and accomplishments.
at the end of the day....UK is the "it" school, the cool place to go. and UK wins big. and everyone knows it. everything else is just junk made up by fans to make themselves feel better.
at the end of the day....UK is the "it" school, the cool place to go. and UK wins big. and everyone knows it. everything else is just junk made up by fans to make themselves feel better.
I kind of agree with this and it is frustrating. Did the same thing with Conner Frankamp and to a little extent, Svi last year. VERY SHORT leash. Then when the did see the floor they were really tight, afraid to play because the hook was there. Yet Jamari Traylor got tons of minutes despite stupid fouls and ridiculous turnovers.
I love Coach Self, and wouldn't trade him for anyone, but this one thing does frustrate me.
Oubre got it and got time. But folks, Cliff NEVER got it. And I don't think playing time would have helped much. If you follow me.
Coach Self a little old school in certain ways, and I'm not sure the one and done, college basketball is nothing but a D league for the NBA, school of thought sits well with him. It certainly doesn't sit well with me.
why is this thread about ku? its about monk and bridges. two players that have zero interest in ku
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