Maybe we already have a great scorer
- Thread starter 52T
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A bunch of nobodies? Maybe you should look at their stats from last year. Even playing against P5 competition they were good.
A bunch of these guys can play and shoot. Pope can coach.This looks like a good team to me.
I understand they will have to prove it on the court, but I wouldn't call them nobodies just because some ranking service says they aren't 5* players. It's going to be nice to have seasoned ball players who know the game.
I fully expect us to win 20 games and be a tough out.
We have too much talent assembled that size up perfectly for Pope's system. We will lose some but we will be fun and exciting.
I don't think this is wholly reasonable either because it seems to hinge on a Calipari versus the universe perspective that doesn't hold up.
The premise presented is false. Teams had goto players before he was knee high to a grasshopper.
Teams certainly looked for players that could put the ball on the floor and make their own shot or create for others before about anyone ever had any thought of Calipari coaching here.
Similar goes for the desirability of three level scorer that can successfully score from anywhere, the Unforgetables are properly lionized here but without Mashburn there is no magical run for them.
I don't understand how this is an argument even if John Calipari never existed at all, this is just basketball beyond maybe a pick up game and that the position you seem to be espousing actually wouldn't be formed without him as a foil and actually arguably isn't particularly attributable to him anyway.
When was it that Calipari was particularly focused on a goto player other than a perpetual hope for somebody to dump it to in the post even if the guys he brought in were face up players?
He isn't and wasn't bothered by Anthony Davis being our 4th scorer or having our best players coming off the bench this past season.
I guess with the dribble drive one could argue that about anyone he put in the floor 1-4 was supposed to be able to essentially do the job of a three level scorer.
One hint that the whole argument is a mix of just being contrarian and jusr wagon circling in defense of what we don't at least apparently have is that many that agree seemingly cannot do so without capping off the assertion with the caveat of lowered expectations/a mulligan.
Eh, while I agree in principle to an extent the fact he has 8-9 guys and most shooting 3s north of 40% almost, I think the shots will be there. Several years ago if a guy was shooting 35% he was a great shooter wasn’t he? Good luck guarding 4 guys at the end of a game shooting that type of volume plus a 5 with skills. Yes, 2 more all stars would be great and I’d say Pope would agree but a roster last year full of Pope’s Mormons also beat Kansas at Kansas. So I’d say let’s see what it looks like if he doesn’t add more before we stress.
That’s nice and all but there’s recent evidence to prove every single thing you said wrong. There’s recent champions who didn’t have a go to guy as well. Personal preference doesn’t equate to anything.
You say this is defense of what we currently don’t have and I say this is a way for haters and doubters to throw a little negativity at us.
People thought UK was done after Cal and then Pope shows up to poop on their parades. I love it!
That team had a stud scorer. This team doesn’t. You can’t put 5 guys on the perimeter there’s gotta be more to it than that getting into the lane and getting to the rim is an absolute must. Pope has assembled a team reliant on at least one guy like that really he needs two. Robinson at the 3/4 and Lanier 2/3. First off pope has made it known that he knows we need two of these guys who drop from the draft. He’s also said he’s serious about making a run in year 1. Pope knows what he needs I trust him
No one on any of these boards or on Earth has a working crystal ball or a Ouija board to see into the future!!!!!!!!
Wing Player-A
Year-1, 21.0-mpg/ 4.5-ppg/ 2.7-rbpg/ 1.1-astpg/ 41.5% fg/ 30.4% 3-pt/ 80.5% ft
Wing Player-A
Year-2, 19.6-mpg/ 4.7-ppg/ 2.5-rbpg/ 0.9-astpg/ 45.4% fg/ 39.1% 3-pt/ 100% ft (10-10)
So, HYPOTHETICALLY if Player-A transfers to UK to be a Junior with those stats in their first two years, at a mid-level/ lesser college, what would the "fan-bennies" initial response be toward this hypothetical committment to Kentucky???
"Role Player"
"Future Depth"
"10, 11, 12th man"
"Not much stat improvement from year-1 to year-2"
"Not a bucket-getter"
"Will only play during mop-up time"
"Not SEC talent"
"Wasted scholarship"
Do these honest critiques sound familiar, so far into Pope's tenure????
🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔
Wing Player-A
Year-3, 33.3-mpg/ 19.7-ppg/ 4.8-rbpg/ 1.8-astpg/ 51% fg/ 44% 3-pt/ 88% ft
Wing Player-A
Year-1, 21.0-mpg/ 4.5-ppg/ 2.7-rbpg/ 1.1-astpg/ 41.5% fg/ 30.4% 3-pt/ 80.5% ft
Wing Player-A
Year-2, 19.6-mpg/ 4.7-ppg/ 2.5-rbpg/ 0.9-astpg/ 45.4% fg/ 39.1% 3-pt/ 100% ft (10-10)
So, HYPOTHETICALLY if Player-A transfers to UK to be a Junior with those stats in their first two years, at a mid-level/ lesser college, what would the "fan-bennies" initial response be toward this hypothetical committment to Kentucky???
"Role Player"
"Future Depth"
"10, 11, 12th man"
"Not much stat improvement from year-1 to year-2"
"Not a bucket-getter"
"Will only play during mop-up time"
"Not SEC talent"
"Wasted scholarship"
Do these honest critiques sound familiar, so far into Pope's tenure????
🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔
Wing Player-A
Year-3, 33.3-mpg/ 19.7-ppg/ 4.8-rbpg/ 1.8-astpg/ 51% fg/ 44% 3-pt/ 88% ft
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Any exception invalidate the previous vast majority of cases?
If so why didn't the 98 championship already set the precedent?
I am probably closer to agreeing with you about the roster than many but I just do not see why is isn't more desirable to have a bucket getter or two if they can be had regardless of system, that is basketball on an organized level stuff not something premised on how Calipari did a damn thing and you know it.
"Bucket-Getters" and/ or "Bucket-Enablers" UK needs both and both types of points count.
Otega Oweh:
I counted about 26 times in this 5-minute highlight video, where by individual talent, toughness, desire, whatever he got a BUCKET by making a play or getting to the rim, by himself!!! Three pointers, catch and shoot, fast breaks were not counted unless Oweh made an individual play (steal/ etc.), to get a BUCKET.
Lamont Butler:
I counted about 26 times in this 5-minute highlight video, where by individual talent, toughness, desire, whatever he got a BUCKET by making a play or getting to the rim, by himself!!! Also about 5 times he made an individual play to get an assist to a teammate. Three pointers, catch and shoot, fast breaks were not counted unless Butler made an individual play (steal/ etc.), to get a BUCKET.
Otega Oweh:
I counted about 26 times in this 5-minute highlight video, where by individual talent, toughness, desire, whatever he got a BUCKET by making a play or getting to the rim, by himself!!! Three pointers, catch and shoot, fast breaks were not counted unless Oweh made an individual play (steal/ etc.), to get a BUCKET.
Lamont Butler:
I counted about 26 times in this 5-minute highlight video, where by individual talent, toughness, desire, whatever he got a BUCKET by making a play or getting to the rim, by himself!!! Also about 5 times he made an individual play to get an assist to a teammate. Three pointers, catch and shoot, fast breaks were not counted unless Butler made an individual play (steal/ etc.), to get a BUCKET.
What is this hypothetical? He’s said in order to do what he wants year one which is win a title and he’s acknowledged he needs two of the guys being evaluated for the draft. If he says “this is our roster as is we re gonna win a title with it” no i won’t trust that. And happy and trust have zero to do with anything
Actually it does, because you just said you trust Pope but if he says that his roster is complete apparently you don’t trust him after all. Unless he is going the same way as you. You answered my question.
We are just killing time right? Why so uptight? You just said you trust Pope then said you didn’t when pressed. Just having fun.
I was talking about his players at BYU. I may have been exaggerating their status as nobodies, but as far as recruiting goes he wasn't landing blue chips.
They may not have had one ball dominant player, but UConn was absolutely loaded this year. Clingan and Castle are projected lottery picks. Newton and Spencer were 1st team All Big East and show up in the second round of some mock drafts, as does Karaban. Hurley is still a fantastic coach, but that wasn’t just a group of scrappy role players who overachieved by being well coached.
I’m just not sure we have that kind of ceiling as our roster stands right now. It’s fairly well balanced, yes, but ultimately made up of 3rd-5th year players who were 2nd and 3rd options at their past schools. I think we’ll be competitive, but the people going around saying we’re a Final Four threat are setting themselves up for disappointment in my opinion.
UCONN in 2022/23 had 3-returnees/ 2-freshmen/ 4-transfers for their Top-9. Sanogo 14.8-ppg, Hawkins 5.8-ppg, Jackson 6.7-ppg and Newton from ECU at 17.7-ppg. Some carryover with a coach in his fourth year at school.
UCONN in 2023/24 had 5-returnees/ 2-freshmen/ 1-transfer for their Top-9.
Newton 10.1-ppg, Clingan 6.9-ppg, Karaban 9.3-ppg, Diarra 2.1-ppg, Johnson 0.9-ppg and Spencer from Rutgers at 13.2-ppg. Alot of carryover from 22/23 with a National Champion coach in his fifth year at school.
So on both of these UCONN teams, they effectively had four solid starters penciled in pre-season and were probably going to have to rely on their freshmen for added production.
So, IMO it's a crap shoot to judge much currently and/ or until the rosters are firmly set and before some top secret/ private scrimmages take place or exhibition games commence.
It seems like a two egded sword, get the final 1-2 senior bucket getters this year to try and exceed all expectations or try to balance out what roster UK already has with possibility of success short term and the development of younger players for next few years..............
UCONN in 2023/24 had 5-returnees/ 2-freshmen/ 1-transfer for their Top-9.
Newton 10.1-ppg, Clingan 6.9-ppg, Karaban 9.3-ppg, Diarra 2.1-ppg, Johnson 0.9-ppg and Spencer from Rutgers at 13.2-ppg. Alot of carryover from 22/23 with a National Champion coach in his fifth year at school.
So on both of these UCONN teams, they effectively had four solid starters penciled in pre-season and were probably going to have to rely on their freshmen for added production.
So, IMO it's a crap shoot to judge much currently and/ or until the rosters are firmly set and before some top secret/ private scrimmages take place or exhibition games commence.
It seems like a two egded sword, get the final 1-2 senior bucket getters this year to try and exceed all expectations or try to balance out what roster UK already has with possibility of success short term and the development of younger players for next few years..............
If you believe that our system and pace may help one or more of the players we brought in improve efficiency or at the very minimum produce the same as they have before, a “star” isn’t even needed for us to be a great offensive team. I’d prefer to have a “star” but we could have one already who hasn’t shown that yet or we could be a team that spreads the wealth. I can show you the math that this really can work out too based on each player’s previous production.
This has nothing to do with Cal. It has to do with UK getting past the first round and not having any studs to get there. The SEC is getting better, with players returning, and coaches with solid resumes.
Oweh was ranked higher and much better than either Robinson or Lanier at the same stage. That's why I don't really want both, Oweh could easily have a breakout jr season.
Cals system had obviously failed especially in the end of his time at UK
That being said you cannot go from one extreme to another here.
It’s great to have multi year guys and make it less about players first and more about UK. This is what the fanbase wants. But Pope will still need to prove that he can not only coach but recruit at a high enough level to have enough talent to win titles. Obviously he came on a bit late for that to happen in Year 1. But it does need to happen.
That being said you cannot go from one extreme to another here.
It’s great to have multi year guys and make it less about players first and more about UK. This is what the fanbase wants. But Pope will still need to prove that he can not only coach but recruit at a high enough level to have enough talent to win titles. Obviously he came on a bit late for that to happen in Year 1. But it does need to happen.
The Big 12 is probably the best conference. Keep in mind that the SEC just added Texas and Oklahoma.
We’ve had plenty of studs the past 5 years and have one tournament win, so that DIRECTLY involves both Cal and UK.
Not getting past the first round has absolutely nothing to do with not having studs, we’ve had more than anyone else. It falls on coaching and also 18 year old kids playing against 25 year old men.
Pope played in a better conference than the SEC when he was at BYU this past season. Also had zero stud players, had a few huge wins and got a 6 seed in the tournament. All while having less talent than he will have this coming season.
It’s something you’re just going to have to see for yourself so I’m looking forward to revisiting this topic in the future.
I don’t think anyone can say we are a final four threat at this stage. One can be hopeful but that’s it. With the new age portal there is just going to be so much team turnover year to year throughout college basketball no one is going to know much of anything until the season gets underway and the team can be evaluated in terms of cohesiveness and even then lots can change through the season. If you are competitive you will put yourself in the conversation for March and that is all anyone can hope for. No one expected NC state to be a final four team this past year yet they were and the same could be said for many other teams the last 4-5 years.
That coaching has never won a tournament game either. Let's not act like it will make up for the lack of studs.
And you hear nothing much about him. I never said we dont need these other guys. I said we we already have others that could be what we need. SGA was brought here as a back up. You just don't know
Yes, "dudes" doesn't guarantee championships, but you can forget about any championships without any "dudes." See how that works?
Yall need to pump the breaks hard on Brea being some big scorer. Hes played four years of college and has only averaged double figures once. This year was 11ppg. Hell he doesn’t even have that many starts compared to how many games he’s played. Yall are getting way too caught up in that 3pt% with him.
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Here are Brea’s stats, for reference:
Koby Brea College Stats | College Basketball at Sports-Reference.com
Koby Brea - Stats, Game Logs, Splits, and much more
www.sports-reference.com
Looks like UK will get him for two years though.
Here are Brea’s stats, for reference:
Koby Brea College Stats | College Basketball at Sports-Reference.com
Koby Brea - Stats, Game Logs, Splits, and much more
I feel like coaching here gets massively overrated.
To me, coaching is the measure of doing more than what the talent on the roster suggests you should do.
But we don't judge coaches based on that. We judge coaches based on ultimately how many titles they won.
Did Coach K win all those titles because he was a great coach or because he had massively talented teams? Probably a bit of both but mostly because of the talent that was assembled.
IMO great coaches are only great because the players they have made them great. At least at the top. Now in college it's a bit different than pros in that the coach is also responsible for putting together the roster. But ultimately that's what matters. Cal won a title because of the players he recruited on that team. We had Anthony Davis, the other teams did not. We had a John Wall or a Cousins or a Towns or a Booker. Conversely, Cal didn't win towards the latter part of this era because he didn't get as many dudes or the dudes he got wasn't nearly the same talent level as what they were bringing in before.
Pope, no matter what kind of Xs and Os coach he is will only go so far as the talent he assembles. Period.
To me, coaching is the measure of doing more than what the talent on the roster suggests you should do.
But we don't judge coaches based on that. We judge coaches based on ultimately how many titles they won.
Did Coach K win all those titles because he was a great coach or because he had massively talented teams? Probably a bit of both but mostly because of the talent that was assembled.
IMO great coaches are only great because the players they have made them great. At least at the top. Now in college it's a bit different than pros in that the coach is also responsible for putting together the roster. But ultimately that's what matters. Cal won a title because of the players he recruited on that team. We had Anthony Davis, the other teams did not. We had a John Wall or a Cousins or a Towns or a Booker. Conversely, Cal didn't win towards the latter part of this era because he didn't get as many dudes or the dudes he got wasn't nearly the same talent level as what they were bringing in before.
Pope, no matter what kind of Xs and Os coach he is will only go so far as the talent he assembles. Period.
And Anthony Davis was a McDonald's All-American, ranked #2 in his class, while averaging 32 points, 18 rebounds, seven blocks, four assists and four steals per game for that high school.
Nobody said anything about 5 Stars. A kid doesn't have to be labeled a 5 Star to be a "dude." There are plenty of high-level talents that were not given 5 stars in front of their name coming out of highschool. UConn had plenty of star talent on there team, 3 to be exact on both teams. You can also watch all of them get drafted later this summer. Great coaching and schemes will only get you so far.
