Lloyd Tubman should be on team and at UK.
- Thread starter MrHotDice
- Start date
The name of the VP of Student Affairs at UK is Robert Mock. His email is Robert.mock@uky.edu. It would be helpful to let him know your thoughts.
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The last thing we need is a bunch of message board crazies pissing off Mr Mock. I hope that anyone who emails him tempers whatever they send.
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sigh
I tried to get you people prepared in the other threads that the path back to UK & the UK football team for Tubman was a steep and difficult one. That success against the criminal charges might not matter. No good time ever to face a sexual assault accusation, but 2014-2015 is about the worst time possible. Especially if you are a football player, thanks Jameis Winson, thanks Vandy gangrapers. Life ain't fair, noone ever promised it would be, and if you are a male at a college in this country today facing accusations that you sexually assaulted a girl then life for gordamn sure is gonna be unfair for you.
When the President of the United States and the Attorney General point a cannon in the face of every college in the country telling them to treat every sexual assault allegation as guilty until indisputably proven innocent, what the hell do you expect UK to do? If they instantly announce Lloyd is welcome back at UK and back on the team they risk a kind of hellfire reaction that you people simply do not understand.
Do you want this girl to be in national magazines & national television, telling how the big powerful school was more concerned about their football program than her being raped? Think that helps this program any at all? This thing is gonna take time folks, if it ever does. UK's gonna go through a process I'm sure, to demonstrate to everyone who will be looking in interested in the outcome to show they are thorough and fair to all involved. And as I've said before, Tubman doesn't even need a decision now, or next month, or until he can re-enroll in classes at UK (June).
Be patient Wildcat friends. I'm sure Stoops & Barnhart will do their best. And if they are unsucessful don't blame them, blame the current culture and propaganda surrounding this issue, and the pathetic politicians who are using it for their own evil purposes.
I tried to get you people prepared in the other threads that the path back to UK & the UK football team for Tubman was a steep and difficult one. That success against the criminal charges might not matter. No good time ever to face a sexual assault accusation, but 2014-2015 is about the worst time possible. Especially if you are a football player, thanks Jameis Winson, thanks Vandy gangrapers. Life ain't fair, noone ever promised it would be, and if you are a male at a college in this country today facing accusations that you sexually assaulted a girl then life for gordamn sure is gonna be unfair for you.
When the President of the United States and the Attorney General point a cannon in the face of every college in the country telling them to treat every sexual assault allegation as guilty until indisputably proven innocent, what the hell do you expect UK to do? If they instantly announce Lloyd is welcome back at UK and back on the team they risk a kind of hellfire reaction that you people simply do not understand.
Do you want this girl to be in national magazines & national television, telling how the big powerful school was more concerned about their football program than her being raped? Think that helps this program any at all? This thing is gonna take time folks, if it ever does. UK's gonna go through a process I'm sure, to demonstrate to everyone who will be looking in interested in the outcome to show they are thorough and fair to all involved. And as I've said before, Tubman doesn't even need a decision now, or next month, or until he can re-enroll in classes at UK (June).
Be patient Wildcat friends. I'm sure Stoops & Barnhart will do their best. And if they are unsucessful don't blame them, blame the current culture and propaganda surrounding this issue, and the pathetic politicians who are using it for their own evil purposes.
Sorry bt and cats78 - all I want is a fair and equal process for Lloyd. I've just never been one to sit by idly when what I believe may be an injustice is occurring.
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It's going look worse on UK that he is innocent and they threw him under the bus.UK likes to talk about how the they take care of their athletes. One of their own was falsely accused of a crime and they throw him out. The hypocrisy at UK is some times is to much for me. If he was rich donors kid do you think they would let him back in school ?
People are confusing insufficient evidence to indict with innocence. Not necessarily the same. Could be, but they aren't equal. So there may still be things out there we don't know. I hope he is innocent, because that means a female UK student wasn't raped by a UK football player and ALL that entails. But I don't see anyone saying that definitively. So we have to wait this out. I hope he is an innocent Wildcat when it's all done, I was pretty excited to sign him. But, something to keep in mind: I am certain that neither I or most anyone on this board have all the facts.
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Don't want to bash Lloyd because I do not know all the facts. I will say Rape is one of the hardest charges to prove in the country, Juries are very skeptical and victims recant more than they stick to their original story. Just because he was not indicted by a grand jury does not tell the whole story.
I don't think they said that no one should say anything...it's if you take it upon yourself to make a comment, do so in a respectful and constructive way. Going full idiot when contacting authorities does nothing to help the case you want to make. It only insures 2 things...1, you will only reinforce the stereotype of being an "ignorant sports fan that only cares about winning" and 2, that your message will be deleted/throw away less than two sentences into its reading.
I think it's safe to say that every UK football fan, at least all those fans interested enough in the program that frequent this board would like to see LT reinstated back to the team. If it were only that simple. There are many moving parts and competing concerns. There are no rights in question here, only privileges. Nobody has a right to go to UK, you must apply and be accepted. They can deny you admission for any reason. If admission is denied then nothing else matters.
Again, if you feel obliged to send an email...please refrain from name calling and insults. Remember, you want the person reading the email to like you and respect your opinion.
^ Yep, I am sure the UK board had more evidence than the grand jury...and unless the girl comes out and said she lied or Lloyd comes out and said he did it, you will never know.
Not exactly sure what we are waiting out?
Tubman was not indicted, and the DA is throwing the case out...not sitting on it for new evidence...
Tubman will likely play football at a different school, which is lame if it is not of his choosing.
Not exactly sure what we are waiting out?
Tubman was not indicted, and the DA is throwing the case out...not sitting on it for new evidence...
Tubman will likely play football at a different school, which is lame if it is not of his choosing.
UK Athletics does not control admissions. Hard to take care of those that can't get admitted.
To this point no one has "thrown him out", I'm not aware that any decision being made. It's just that being cleared of the charges doesn't = reinstatement.
Tubman hasn't been found innocent, there has been no declaration that he was falsely accused. It has only been determined that not enough evidence exists to go to trial. Had he gone to trial and been found innocent and later that day a video appeared that proved that he was in fact guilty they couldn't go back and change the verdict. But since he hasn't faced trial and if that same video came to light, it could be resent to the GJ and sent to trial.
As for "If he was rich donors kid"... as they say, life ain't fair.
personally I feel safe in knowing without a doubt that Coach Stoops & Mr Barnhart will be able to have a more meaningful conversation & interaction with VP Mock than I or any UK yahoo fan could, as well meaning as we all are wanting to help the program
Agree and disagree. I believe that notice in numbers in this situation is a good thing. Sending an overwhelming message that if a guy hasn't done the crime he shouldn't do the time is the right approach, in my opinion. I do agree that well thought out, articulate and intelligent messages are what works. If you're going to end sentences with a million exclamation points (!!111!!!!!!1), profanity or even soft insults, don't do it. I firmly support the way Stoops and the athletic department handled this. Tubman sat out while dealing with the grand jury. Now that he has done his part, it's time for the school to do theirs. Let this young man get back to his place on the team and in the school. I'll probably be emailing Mr. Mock this evening.
Somewhat disagree - as fuzz says above, a respectful, well-thought email to Mr. Mock letting him know that fans/alums/students want and expect fair treatment for Lloyd (IMO) would not hurt, and may help. After all, I'm pretty sure that Chuck Hayes (with similar allegations and results) didn't have to go before the UK tribunal.
You're right they aren't the same. The standard to indict is MUCH LOWER than to convict at trial. So if he weren't indicted, after 3 days of evidence presented to members of the community who make up the Grand Jury (evidence presented just like it would be at a trial for the most part), then you can presume he's innocent.
This post was edited on 2/13 10:55 AM by TNTUK
Actually, that's not the case. The GJ only confirms that there isn't enough evidence to take to trial.
We know they were in a room and had sex. The girl says it was against her will. With no witnesses that's a tough burden to prove. It's why so many rapes go unreported. In many ways it's just like the Jamis Winston rape accusations. The difference being that LT doesn't have the additional baggage.
MrHotDicce I agree! I sent my email with my support to Lloyd. Those who fell like he should be readmitted should voice your opinion! BBN
Ummm - the standard for a GJ to indict is much lower (probable cause that a crime was committed) than the standard to convict at trial (beyond a reasonable doubt that a crime was committed). That's absolutely the case. If the GJ didn't think there was enough evidence to indict......I'm pretty confident there wouldn't be enough evidence to convict a person of a crime at a trial.
I mean, if someone can't jump over a 4 foot wall, how do you expect them to jump over a 10 foot wall?
Further, the GJ doesn't "confirm" anything. They review the evidence presented to them (testimony, exhibits, etc.), and decide if there is probable cause that a crime was committed. If they decide that there is probable cause that a crime was committed, then a formal indictment is issued.
Indictment also doesn't mean the Defendant's case "will go to trial". It means, once indicted, that they will be arraigned in front of a Circuit Judge.....and then a pre-trial conference would be set. Cases can settle before trial. But, you're Fuzz....I'm sure you knew that as well.
This post was edited on 2/13 11:47 AM by TNTUK
This post was edited on 2/13 11:53 AM by TNTUK
This post was edited on 2/13 12:25 PM by TNTUK
This post was edited on 2/13 12:43 PM by TNTUK
No, they are not confusing it. In our system, you are innocent until proven guilty. Insufficient evidence is same thing as innocent in our system. He must be proven guilty, therefor he is innocent.
Its too many fans watching Nancy Grace and other news channels thinking they have a leg up on people and assuming guilt before.
Anyone here who contacts Mr. Mock about a student matter like this is out of their mind. Just ask yourself this. Does Mr. Mock need to hear from a bunch of crazy sports fans with no direct knowledge of the case or the school rules before he can do his job? It would be counterproductive. Please leave the guy alone.
I want Lloyd Tubman to continue to be a Wildcat. I am amazed that UK would continue to question this kid's innocence. This kid has lost a whole year of his life on what definitely appears to be a false accusation. I have yet to see one media report of any protest of the GJ decision not to indict Mr. Tubman. So why would UK be so hesitant to re-instate him when he is innocent?
Like TNT said, the threshold for a GJ indictment is so low, that you absolutely can take something from it. Its not hard to indict, it's quite easy, even with lack of evidence in many cases.
If you can't get a jury to indict you sure as hell would be hard pressed to get one to convict.
UL actively looks for players who have been CONVICTED of felonies, and we might dismiss one who was never even indicted. Absolute bullshit if that happens.
If you can't get a jury to indict you sure as hell would be hard pressed to get one to convict.
UL actively looks for players who have been CONVICTED of felonies, and we might dismiss one who was never even indicted. Absolute bullshit if that happens.
