Lee looked good

[kybassfan]

Another cry to the mods, instead of countering and posting something of substance. Cant imagine the ass-whippings you took growing up.

You think they'll far Cal soon? Gosh he lost a game last year. I bet he loses another one this year just because he wants Poythress in the NBA. I heard tell he is so loyal to his players he wants them to be successful. Even if we win it all, I bet its by less than 15 points.

I find it difficult to inject substance into a reply when the prior post was complete and utter nonsense. If you are looking for ass-whippings, I suggest you make such an asinine statement about favoritism in front of Poythress and Calipari. I suspect you'd learn the truth in these matters and find out whether Poythress is fully recovered. Does any thought go into these posts or does the brain just relieve itself outside your control?

 

[cawoodsct]

Lee is the most luxurious player in college basketball.

 

[Cat Ballou]

Personally, I want and expect Cal to be "loyal" to guys like Poythress. I'm okay with OAD stuff, but I don't want guys like Poy and Lee to get lost in the shuffle.

So - I want to see Poy and Lee given every chance to excel this year. Not of the expense of winning it all obviously, but still, they deserve their chance.

 

[Orange Soda King]

Willis will play more this season! Cal should give him some run.

 

[TheDonJiggy]

I think we all need to be very careful about trying to make any sort of analysis based on what we say during Madness.

 

[Uk1111]

These are amazing. Also Heshimu means "warrior".

On topic, if Lee can develop any sort of offense other than catching alley oops, he will play his way right into the first round of the draft. And it will be absolutely huge for this team.

Yes, yes, but did you'll know that Jarnell Stokes wore size 20 shoes?! Seriously though, I thought that Cut-nets was a UK fan trying to make UL look bad, but he's just a straight up troll, and a jerk! Time to take out the trash MODs!!!!

 

[reddickulis81]

Yeah but did you know that Anthony Davis took the 4th most shots in 2012?

I bet you didn't.

5th man 5th

 

[Untouchables22]

Yeah does everybody see how much of a struggle recruiting is for Kansas right now because of the Cliff Alexander fiasco?? Alex was a consensus top 10 recruit and so Cal realizes how bad a look it is for a kid that highly regarded to go late 2nd round or undrafted. He is very sensitive to trying to help Alex in every way he can both in coaching and public perception and I like it because you better believe if Alex goes undrafted it will be used heavily in negative recruiting against us.

 

[mj2k10]

Yeah does everybody see how much of a struggle recruiting is for Kansas right now because of the Cliff Alexander fiasco?? Alex was a consensus top 10 recruit and so Cal realizes how bad a look it is for a kid that highly regarded to go late 2nd round or undrafted. He is very sensitive to trying to help Alex in every way he can both in coaching and public perception and I like it because you better believe if Alex goes undrafted it will be used heavily in negative recruiting against us.

You're right in a sense, but there's a gap between a guy who plays 4 years but doesn't end up in the pros, and a HS AA who has a single fiasco year then bolts to go undrafted. There are a lot of top 10 HS players who just don't develop (or were overrated to begin with), and though that's not a good thing for whoever coaches them, the perception is mainly going to be that the problem was with the player. If he lasts 3 or 4 years, he clearly had chances. In a case like Alexander, it looks a lot more like the coach hurt his draft stock, and people are going to question whether the player was utilized properly, and whether he was given a good chance to showcase his skills.

 

[KnowsAllTellsAll]

You're right in a sense, but there's a gap between a guy who plays 4 years doesn't end up in the pros, and a HS AA who has a single fiasco year then bolts to go undrafted. There are a lot of top 10 HS players who just don't develop (or where overrated to begin with), and though that's not a good thing for whoever coaches them, the perception is mainly going to be that the problem was with the player. If he lasts 3 or 4 years, he clearly had chances. In a case like Alexander, it looks a lot more like the coach hurt his draft stock, and people are going to question whether the player was utilized properly, and whether he was given a good chance to showcase his skills.

That is a terrible take and completely biased to rationalize Poythress and villainize Self.

 

[mj2k10]

That is a terrible take and completely biased to rationalize Poythress and villainize Self.

I'll moderate my actual response.

Take your worthless idiot ass back to a KU board. No one asked you to come here, no one wants you here. You are here only due to the good graces of the UK fans on this board. You make asshole comments like that, you lose all that good grace.

I don't need to do anything to make Self look bad. He does it to himself, as does your wannabe program every time it flames out against a double-digit seed, and every time one of your players does some stupid crap and gets himself arrested or investigated by the NCAA.

As for what I wrote before, sorry but it's the truth. If you don't like that, fold 5 times, bend over, and shove it up there with significant force.

 

[Untouchables22]

You're right in a sense, but there's a gap between a guy who plays 4 years doesn't end up in the pros, and a HS AA who has a single fiasco year then bolts to go undrafted. There are a lot of top 10 HS players who just don't develop (or where overrated to begin with), and though that's not a good thing for whoever coaches them, the perception is mainly going to be that the problem was with the player. If he lasts 3 or 4 years, he clearly had chances. In a case like Alexander, it looks a lot more like the coach hurt his draft stock, and people are going to question whether the player was utilized properly, and whether he was given a good chance to showcase his skills.

Yeah I agree with your analysis. It's just anytime you visit the Duke, Kansas, North Carolina, Louisville, etc. boards the only logical argument they have left to criticize UK recruiting with is that "you better not go to UK if you're not going to be awesome as a Freshmen because Cal will recruit over you and subsequently sink your career." It just would be nice to take away the lone remaining criticism from UK detractors.

 

[Hoskins91]

I hope he improves enough so that it is a difficult decision to make. Lee and Skal would give us legit height and length in the front court. The problem would be a big physical team could potentially give us a lot of issues.

 

[KnowsAllTellsAll]

I'll moderate my actual response.

Take your worthless idiot ass back to a KU board. No one asked you to come here, no one wants you here. You are here only due to the good graces of the UK fans on this board. You make asshole comments like that, you lose all that good grace.

I don't need to do anything to make Self look bad. He does it to himself, as does your wannabe program every time it flames out against a double-digit seed, and every time one of your players does some stupid crap and gets himself arrested or investigated by the NCAA.

As for what I wrote before, sorry but it's the truth. If you don't like that, fold 5 times, bend over, and shove it up there with significant force.

Apology accepted.

 

[JPrickett32]

Did you all know that Cliff Hawkins battles asthma? Crazy.

 

[mj2k10]

Apology accepted.

No problem. Idiots like yourself get on the internet just like everyone else. I'm always more than happy to help put them in their place. Glad I could be of service to you on this.

 

[Tampa_cat54]

5th man 5th

I thought MKG took the 5th?

Maybe I had them backwards!

 

[Untouchables22]

Did you know UK players all poop ice cream?

 

[BlueSince92]

Guys did you realize Jamal Mashburn and Gimel Martinez were roommates!?

 

[brianpoe]

Yeah does everybody see how much of a struggle recruiting is for Kansas right now because of the Cliff Alexander fiasco?? Alex was a consensus top 10 recruit and so Cal realizes how bad a look it is for a kid that highly regarded to go late 2nd round or undrafted. He is very sensitive to trying to help Alex in every way he can both in coaching and public perception and I like it because you better believe if Alex goes undrafted it will be used heavily in negative recruiting against us.

Yeah I agree with your analysis. It's just anytime you visit the Duke, Kansas, North Carolina, Louisville, etc. boards the only logical argument they have left to criticize UK recruiting with is that "you better not go to UK if you're not going to be awesome as a Freshmen because Cal will recruit over you and subsequently sink your career." It just would be nice to take away the lone remaining criticism from UK detractors.

I am pretty sure we will hear about Skal being number 1 instead of Poy.

Just like this year it's all KAT, not Aaron.

The rivals message boards are less than 1% of the public and they will always try to make us look bad.

 

[Orange Soda King]

I thought MKG took the 5th?

Maybe I had them backwards!

Davis took the 5th most, MKG took 4th most. I forget who took 3rd, 2nd, 1st, and 6th, haha.

 

[Poetax]

Yeah does everybody see how much of a struggle recruiting is for Kansas right now because of the Cliff Alexander fiasco?? Alex was a consensus top 10 recruit and so Cal realizes how bad a look it is for a kid that highly regarded to go late 2nd round or undrafted. He is very sensitive to trying to help Alex in every way he can both in coaching and public perception and I like it because you better believe if Alex goes undrafted it will be used heavily in negative recruiting against us.

You might be overplaying that a bit. Last year he looked like he might be ready to take his place among the top players in the nation especially after the island games. But his injury put that on hold until this year but with that and the years that he has been here, it wouldn't be like he is a freshmen again and a disappointment. Too many other schools have had their busts for it to be much of a negative for us. Will they push it? Sure but Cal will show why it doesn't work by getting a class that could have a #1, #2, or #3 ranking.

 

[KnowsAllTellsAll]

No problem. Idiots like yourself get on the internet just like everyone else. I'm always more than happy to help put them in their place. Glad I could be of service to you on this.

Your "argument" was pretty spot "off", so calling others "idiots" is misplaced. But keep on keeping on. There are a lot of very knowledgable and rational posters who post here. High post count does not necessarily equal knowledge.

 

[Aike]

Your "argument" was pretty spot "off", so calling others "idiots" is misplaced. But keep on keeping on. There are a lot of very knowledgable and rational posters who post here. High post count does not necessarily equal knowledge.

His argument was fine. Poythress has been a model citizen. He graduated in 3 years. He hasn't become quite the player that many projected out of high school but he certainly hasn't been bad.

Alexander was a train wreck. I'm sure it would have been nice to have 3-4 years for him to develop. What you got was a 3 month mess.

I'm not saying the problems with Alexander were all on Self. But they certainly reflect poorly on the program. I doubt they help.

So yeah, there is a big difference. Poythress has been a disappointment only in that he hasn't quite met projections. But he's still playing, and has enjoyed a successful career.

Alexander left in disgrace, seemingly feeling mistreated by Self and Kansas overall.

Kansas will be fine, I'm sure. You should go back to your board and rally the troops.

 

[bucsrule8872]

In all fairness, it isn't a good comparison. Alexander and Poythress could not have been more different players coming into college. The only thing they really had in common was both were considered top ten players in their classes. Alex was a high academic level student coming out of high school. I don't think Alexander was quite on his level. Alex and his family wanted him to get a degree. I don't think that was coveted by Alexander and his camp so much.

I am definitely not defending Self, but I can't see comparing Alexander and Poythress as being anywhere close to a fair comparison. Two opposite ends of the spectrum type players, IMHO.

 

[kybassfan]

Your "argument" was pretty spot "off", so calling others "idiots" is misplaced. But keep on keeping on. There are a lot of very knowledgable and rational posters who post here. High post count does not necessarily equal knowledge.

Not much correlation with low post count either, I see.

 

[mj2k10]

In all fairness, it isn't a good comparison. Alexander and Poythress could not have been more different players coming into college. The only thing they really had in common was both were considered top ten players in their classes. Alex was a high academic level student coming out of high school. I don't think Alexander was quite on his level. Alex and his family wanted him to get a degree. I don't think that was coveted by Alexander and his camp so much.

I am definitely not defending Self, but I can't see comparing Alexander and Poythress as being anywhere close to a fair comparison. Two opposite ends of the spectrum type players, IMHO.

You seem to be circling around the point while still sort of missing it. It wasn't a comparison of Alexander and Poythress, at least from me. It was a contrast.

The question that was being discussed was whether Poythress, if he goes undrafted, could be held against Cal in recruiting the same way that Alexander can be held against Self (something that appears to be hurting him this year). I think the answer is no, and you hit upon one of the reasons why.

Not all top 10 recruits come into college with the same expectations. When John Henson struggles his freshman year, and takes 3 years to get to the NBA, that's not a real problem for Roy Williams. Henson needed time to develop physically, and ended up where he wanted to be anyway. When James McAdoo watches his draft stock slip for 3 years, when he was projected as a top 10 draft pick before ever playing in college, that is a problem for Roy Williams. Just like with Bill Self, I don't think Wayne Selden would be the cause of any real ripples with recruiting. He's had his chances, he's had a decent college career, he just doesn't appear to be as good as advertised. It happens. Alexander, OTOH, is problematic for Self, especially because Kansas seemed to just wash its hands of him when the eligibility issues came up.

The problematic guys for Cal at UK are the Harrison twins, but they fall much closer to Selden than Alexander (as will Poy if he doesn't make it in the pros).

 

[Untouchables22]

You seem to be circling around the point while still sort of missing it. It wasn't a comparison of Alexander and Poythress, at least from me. It was a contrast.

The question that was being discussed was whether Poythress, if he goes undrafted, could be held against Cal in recruiting the same way that Alexander can be held against Self (something that appears to be hurting him this year). I think the answer is no, and you hit upon one of the reasons why.

Not all top 10 recruits come into college with the same expectations. When John Henson struggles his freshman year, and takes 3 years to get to the NBA, that's not a real problem for Roy Williams. Henson needed time to develop physically, and ended up where he wanted to be anyway. When James McAdoo watches his draft stock slip for 3 years, when he was projected as a top 10 draft pick before ever playing in college, that is a problem for Roy Williams. Just like with Bill Self, I don't think Wayne Selden would be the cause of any real ripples with recruiting. He's had his chances, he's had a decent college career, he just doesn't appear to be as good as advertised. It happens. Alexander, OTOH, is problematic for Self, especially because Kansas seemed to just wash its hands of him when the eligibility issues came up.

The problematic guys for Cal at UK are the Harrison twins, but they fall much closer to Selden than Alexander (as will Poy if he doesn't make it in the pros).

I agree with this opinion as well I think the Alexander problem for self is two fold:
1. That he yanked Alexander's playing time (the lack of opportunity argument you made which I agree with) as well as playing seemingly less talented and less skilled players in Landen Lucas and Jabari Traylor over him. If the other guys on the team that were playing over Alexander were actually better players or giving the team better production then the basketball community would understand. But when you don't play a guy and the guys that are getting his minutes are also inferior players it really raises eyebrows of high school and AAU coaches. Here at Kentucky Cal almost always (he was a little too loyal to the twins last year IMO) plays the best players and gives them the most minutes so this issue rarely comes up here.
2. As you stated once Alexander's eligibility became an issue and Alexander publicly called out Self for his lack of playing time during pre-draft interviews with NBA teams the Kansas program publicly appeared to distance themselves from him. Again the only player that has happened with Cal at UK was Daniel Orton and he deserved it for serious jeopardizing our APR score and putting a scholarship at risk. Cal publicly and privately goes to bat for his players even if he thinks they are making bad decisions or if they screw up (ie. Deandre Liggins suspension, Terrence Jones car wreck, Jorts publicly criticizing him etc.) It's not fair and maybe not even true but the perception is that when NBA teams talked to Self about Alexander he didn't have nice things to say about the young man which resulted in him going undrafted and being labeled "troubled."

 

[KyCatFan]

Wayne Turner got lost in Alaska while riding a snowmobile.

 

[IL Wildcat]

Yeah does everybody see how much of a struggle recruiting is for Kansas right now because of the Cliff Alexander fiasco?? Alex was a consensus top 10 recruit and so Cal realizes how bad a look it is for a kid that highly regarded to go late 2nd round or undrafted. He is very sensitive to trying to help Alex in every way he can both in coaching and public perception and I like it because you better believe if Alex goes undrafted it will be used heavily in negative recruiting against us.

I think you're placing too many eggs in one basket. Alex Poythress is the exception, not the rule. He'd have been gone last year had he not injured himself. Also, I think even Alex would tell you that he just wasn't ready after his freshman or sophomore years. It's not Calipari's fault. I think we've all seen Alex's issue and it's more mental than physical. He plays with passivity too often. We've seen him in beast mode and he has that potential all the time. That's what we need from him for this team to be truly great and that's what he needs from himself for him to be truly great. It's a win-win.

I remember about midway through his junior season that Darius Miller finally had the light come on. Before that, he was just too passive and disappeared out there for long stretches. I think Poythress is very similar. Well, it's time for Alex's light to come on. We do need him in beast mode. But hey, Lee's improvement is also critical to this team's success. So, this is only a good thing.

(this part is not directed at you untouchables) As for the comments in this thread regarding Calipari's loyalty to Poythress being a concern and costing the team, I don't have much concern about that whatsoever. We can afford to give Poythress some time to get back to himself in some of these nonconference games. But rest assured, Calipari wants to win every game. Don't let his comments fool you. He's recruiting and he needs to say those things. But he will put the player in the game that gives him the best chance to win. Now, I know what he said about the Harrison twins, but I guarantee you that at that moment, he thought they gave him the best chance to win that game. It's possible that in hindsight he second guessed himself, but he wasn't sitting there thinking, "Well, we're gonna lose this game if I leave Aaron and Andrew in there, but I gotta be loyal!" I don't believe that for a minute.

I can tolerate many opinions, by the way, but I don't have much use for questioning the motives of our coach. I think we could draw the line short of that every time. If you are questioning his desire to win, you're questioning his being fit to be our coach, and that's just ridiculous.

 

[IL Wildcat]

That is a terrible take and completely biased to rationalize Poythress and villainize Self.

Ha! You should change your moniker to "KnowsLittleTellsAll" Ha! It's better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

There's no question you tell all, but as for your knowledge, well, that's debatable. I don't think anyone with much sense would argue that Alex Poythress's lack of being drafted to this point should count against Calipari in regard to recruiting or player development. Now, that won't stop coaches from attempting to use it against him. But anyone with eyes can see. Poythress is an academic all american. As others have said, he wanted to get a degree and he finished in 3 years. (Did Alexander even take a class in the spring?) To compare these players is a stretch.

In the case of Cliff Alexander, I don't think there is any question he could be used against Self and it could be made to stick. There were issues from day one with him, both on and off the court. Self apparently didn't do much for him and couldn't do much with him. He only played 17 minutes per games when he did play and he came to town as a consensus top 5 pick in last June's draft. Yeah, it's gonna look bad on Self. There's no way around it. If he were the first to either not develop much at all or regress at Kansas, it wouldn't be an issue, but he's not.

 

[bucsrule8872]

You seem to be circling around the point while still sort of missing it. It wasn't a comparison of Alexander and Poythress, at least from me. It was a contrast.

The question that was being discussed was whether Poythress, if he goes undrafted, could be held against Cal in recruiting the same way that Alexander can be held against Self (something that appears to be hurting him this year). I think the answer is no, and you hit upon one of the reasons why.

Not all top 10 recruits come into college with the same expectations. When John Henson struggles his freshman year, and takes 3 years to get to the NBA, that's not a real problem for Roy Williams. Henson needed time to develop physically, and ended up where he wanted to be anyway. When James McAdoo watches his draft stock slip for 3 years, when he was projected as a top 10 draft pick before ever playing in college, that is a problem for Roy Williams. Just like with Bill Self, I don't think Wayne Selden would be the cause of any real ripples with recruiting. He's had his chances, he's had a decent college career, he just doesn't appear to be as good as advertised. It happens. Alexander, OTOH, is problematic for Self, especially because Kansas seemed to just wash its hands of him when the eligibility issues came up.

The problematic guys for Cal at UK are the Harrison twins, but they fall much closer to Selden than Alexander (as will Poy if he doesn't make it in the pros).

Good explanation.

I see your point, now. Carry on.

 

[reddickulis81]

Wayne Turner got lost in Alaska while riding a snowmobile.

Did he really?

 

[KnowsAllTellsAll]

High level: The poster whose argument I responded to ignores that although rated highly out of high school, the description of his game was that Alexander was raw fundamentally and dominated at the high school level because of his size/athleticim compared to his peers. He was not a guaranteed lock to be one and done. Once on campus he suffered a minor injury and did not garner much playing time because of effort in practice and when put on the court. That is going to get you yanked by any successful college coach, including Calipari. Also being ignored is that Alexander was then withheld from games when the eligibility questions arose.

As far as criticizing how he was used, Alexander mentioned that was taken out of context by the reporter.

Similarly, Poythress, who was raw offensively and an athletic beast, was given a complete pass in the post I responded to and didn't have near the attitude or NCAA issues that Alexander had.

Bottom line: Not every player is a one and done.

 

[bucsrule8872]

High level: The poster whose argument I responded to ignores that although rated highly out of high school, the description of his game was that Alexander was raw fundamentally and dominated at the high school level because of his size/athleticim compared to his peers. He was not a guaranteed lock to be one and done. Once on campus he suffered a minor injury and did not garner much playing time because of effort in practice and when put on the court. That is going to get you yanked by any successful college coach, including Calipari. Also being ignored is that Alexander was then withheld from games when the eligibility questions arose.

As far as criticizing how he was used, Alexander mentioned that was taken out of context by the reporter.

Similarly, Poythress, who was raw offensively and an athletic beast, was given a complete pass in the post I responded to and didn't have near the attitude or NCAA issues that Alexander had.

Bottom line: Not every player is a one and done.

The Poythress situation reflects much better on a program than the Alexander situation.

Wannabe OAD who graduates as an honor student after 3 years and still has a legitimate shot at getting drafted looks much better on Cal's resume than a wannabe OAD who gets benched, then is ruled academically ineligible in the middle of the season and then goes undrafted does on Self's resume.

Doesn't seem like a fair comparison, but it was made. Alexander is a black eye for Self. No way anyone could say the same thing about Poythress for Cal. Poythress is a model citizen. Even if he goes undrafted, the kid is going to be successful. Alexander and Poythress are apples and oranges. Self picked a rotten apple it seems. Cal just picked an orange that wasn't as ripe as expected. The orange is still useable. The apple has been tossed away.

 

[KnowsAllTellsAll]

The Poythress situation reflects much better on a program than the Alexander situation.

Wannabe OAD who graduates as an honor student after 3 years and still has a legitimate shot at getting drafted looks much better on Cal's resume than a wannabe OAD who gets benched, then is ruled academically ineligible in the middle of the season and then goes undrafted does on Self's resume.

Doesn't seem like a fair comparison, but it was made. Alexander is a black eye for Self. No way anyone could say the same thing about Poythress for Cal. Poythress is a model citizen. Even if he goes undrafted, the kid is going to be successful. Alexander and Poythress are apples and oranges. Self picked a rotten apple it seems. Cal just picked an orange that wasn't as ripe as expected. The orange is still useable. The apple has been tossed away.

No argument with this take at all. A black eye based on perception, but a bad hand dealt to Self all around.

 

[bucsrule8872]

No argument with this take at all. A black eye based on perception, but a bad hand dealt to Self all around.

Or is it a tell for Self? Self has to take a chance on a kid like Alexander (a low character kid) while Cal has not had to.

I have been racking my brain trying to think of a player that has played for UK since Cal came on board that has had anywhere close to Alexander's issues. Even players that did not work out for Cal went on to be productive elsewhere (Wiltjer, Harrow). None have been bad character guys. Even Cousins' attitude issues ended up being overstated.

Does it reflect Self's weakness in recruiting (having to take a chance on this kid) or was it just bad luck? Does it mean Self is a bad judge of character or did he just take a calculated risk?

I know the answer you should stick with is that it could happen to any coach. That is true. But has it happened to Cal or K, especially recently?

I can't blame you for defending your coach, I defended Tubby over a similar situation (Carruth).

 

[Untouchables22]

I have been racking my brain trying to think of a player that has played for UK since Cal came on board that has had anywhere close to Alexander's issues. None have been bad character guys.

Daniel Orton is the big one but he was originally a Gillespie signed recruit so perhaps Cal didn't do his normal background/due diligence test.

 

[bucsrule8872]

Daniel Orton is the big one but he was originally a Gillespie signed recruit so perhaps Cal didn't do his normal background.

Cal still got him drafted in the first round. How would that be a black eye for Cal?

 

[Untouchables22]

Cal still got him drafted in the first round. How would that be a black eye for Cal?

I was just specifically speaking to the only really "bad character" player Cal has had at UK not the larger draft results part of the conversation. Because you're right he was ultimately a 1st round pick.