Jerseys in Rupp Rafters: My controversial take

[MdWIldcat55]

I take the jerseys and banners in Rupp's Rafters seriously, as I'm sure all Kentucky fans do. I would go on a hunger strike to, for example, keep a Helms Banner out of Rupp (a ludicrous idea, but making a point.)

So, what would I change? I would take down the jerseys for Richie Farmer and the other 'Unforgettables.' I would replace the individual jerseys with a banner that said UNFORGETTABLES and had the names of the entire team on it.

I loved that team, and appreciate what the players did for Kentucky. But I always felt the push by Pitino to get all of their jerseys in the rafters was more about him -- hey, look what I did with these ordinary players -- than about the players.

Set aside the Farmer controversy: Do Woods, Feldhaus and Pelphrey belong in the rafters on merit? Sure they helped bring the program back from a tough time nearly 30 years ago. But that's not normally the standard for being in the Rafters. The usual standard is to have been an extraordinary talent -- an All America or the critical player on a championship team.

Should Farmer and Feldhaus be in the rafters and not Wayne Turner, for example, who was on two champions and played in another Final Game and Elite Eight, or Tayshaun Prince, who was a terrific player? Was Pelphrey more important to the program than Anthony Davis, who will probably never make it because he did the logical thing of becoming a multi-millionaire when the chance arose?

There have been some great Kentucky teams that haven't had as many players honored with jerseys in the rafters as the Unforgettables. There are many better players who gave Kentucky everything they had -- just as I feel the Unforgettables did -- but they didn't quite measure up. It feels unbalanced and in some ways unfair to me.

By the way, I fully expect many will blast me for this view. Don't hold back. I enjoy a lively board.

 

[TUL]

I think this is only part of the issue (if it IS an issue.)

I think another big issue we will have to figure out in the modern era... What do you do with the fact that your best players will only play a year? Will the big schools never retire a jersey again? It is an odd problem,

 

[preacherfan]

I think this is only part of the issue (if it IS an issue.)

I think another big issue we will have to figure out in the modern era... What do you do with the fact that your best players will only play a year? Will the big schools never retire a jersey again? It is an odd problem,

At first, I wondered why a Duke fan was the first to reply to this thread. But, that was an excellent post! You nailed it. UK and Duke are now both in the same boat with extraordinary players only being there one year.

 

[TUL]

For sure. We really saw this problem with Nolan Smith and Jon Scheyer And Kyle Singler… All deemed just not quite good enoughto make it, but nobody's gonna come along better who is gonna stick around for any amount of time. I really think that the big programs are never going to retire another jersey, unless we figure out some sort of system other than retirement. I hate to say it, but maybe Carolina with their honored jerseys has a good idea?

 

[MdWIldcat55]

I hate to say it, but maybe Carolina with their honored jerseys has a good idea?[/QUOTE]


Sir, you go too far. Any program that hangs Helms banners has nothing to offer the rest of us on maintaining the dignity of our rafters.

 

[TUL]

I know. It made me a little sick to say it, but I hate that some players who are really loved and really contributed, both four year guys and one year guys, can't make it in due to an incredibly stringent retirement standards

 

[brianpoe]

This topic always upsets a few fans.

I have always had this problem about this topic:

Mashburn

He averaged 21 pts that year, hit 43% of his 3's (no other player averaged over 38%)

Mash scored 28 against Duke, the game that really caused this issue.

He was the star and carried that team, not as much as he did the following year, but those other guys were simply very, very good role players.

I know people say they stuck around and worked hard to bring UK back, but where else were they going to go? Woods maybe.

The key to the resurgence was Mash committing.

All of this is just my humble opinion.

 

[brianpoe]

Mark Story actually wrote about this topic in February:

"To me, it comes down to this. You look at the achievements of each player independent of how long they played at Kentucky.

In his UK career, Davis was the best player on the team that captured the 2012 NCAA championship. He won every major national player of the year award. In the summer after he left UK, he was the No. 1 overall pick in the NBA Draft and won an Olympics gold medal. Davis has already become an NBA All-Star.

One-year player or four-year player, that is a résumé worthy of a retired jersey.

The same, I think, is true of Wall.

In his one season at UK, Wall was the best player on a team that went 35-3. He was a consensus first-team All-American, the USBWA National Freshman of the Year and the SEC Player of the Year. In the summer after he departed UK, Wall became the first ex-Kentucky player ever taken No. 1 overall in the NBA Draft.

He's gone on to become an NBA All-Star and to win an NBA Slam Dunk contest.

Much as Mashburn enabled Rick Pitino's quick revitalization of Kentucky basketball in the 1990s, Wall played a similar role for Calipari.

That merits a retired No. 11 jersey in Rupp."


Read more here: http://www.kentucky.com/2015/02/28/3719741/mark-story-when-the-time-comes.html#storylink=cpy

 

[bthaunert]

I hate to say it, but maybe Carolina with their honored jerseys has a good idea?

Sir, you go too far. Any program that hangs Helms banners has nothing to offer the rest of us on maintaining the dignity of our rafters.[/QUOTE]
While I agree that UNC isn't an example of excellence, the way they retire and hang jerseys is perfect. Set rules that say if you do this or this, your jersey hangs. That way you take the debate out of it.

 

[KY_DO_ENT]

Mark Story actually wrote about this topic in February:

"To me, it comes down to this. You look at the achievements of each player independent of how long they played at Kentucky.

In his UK career, Davis was the best player on the team that captured the 2012 NCAA championship. He won every major national player of the year award. In the summer after he left UK, he was the No. 1 overall pick in the NBA Draft and won an Olympics gold medal. Davis has already become an NBA All-Star.

One-year player or four-year player, that is a résumé worthy of a retired jersey.

The same, I think, is true of Wall.

In his one season at UK, Wall was the best player on a team that went 35-3. He was a consensus first-team All-American, the USBWA National Freshman of the Year and the SEC Player of the Year. In the summer after he departed UK, Wall became the first ex-Kentucky player ever taken No. 1 overall in the NBA Draft.

He's gone on to become an NBA All-Star and to win an NBA Slam Dunk contest.

Much as Mashburn enabled Rick Pitino's quick revitalization of Kentucky basketball in the 1990s, Wall played a similar role for Calipari.

That merits a retired No. 11 jersey in Rupp."


Read more here: http://www.kentucky.com/2015/02/28/3719741/mark-story-when-the-time-comes.html#storylink=cpy

I agree with the sentiment here. Davis obviously needs his jersey retired. What else could he have accomplished in a 12-month process for our team (and for basketball, in general)?

Go with individual merit and what they contributed to the team, not length of tenure.

 

[Ripcord65]

I definitely agree with taking down the jerseys of Pelphrey, Farmer, Feldhaus, and Woods. In hindsight, putting those banners in the rafters was a serious overreaction. I would have no objection to replacing them with a banner with the names of all of the team members.

 

[kybassfan]

There are more places of honor than the rafters of Rupp arena. There are places on campus, paving of key walkways, markers, locker rooms, etc. The program has literally become so broad and the milestones so numerous that it is tough to place them literally on the same level and in the same spot. This is a pretty classic type of issue for the boosters and university to tackle together. Various types of media and levels of commemoration should be established, criteria determined and move on. I think the issue here is that society have come to believe something is the best or the worst. In fact is that is almost always not true. Kentucky tradition is present on many levels.

The banners in the rafters should be for the highest honors. National championships, 4 year players of great achievement, etc. I'd even find a place for the bread wrappers, errr Helms titles. I actually believe they should be displayed in the visiting locker room or somewhere in the visiting team's face. The message is clear, yes, they are in your rafters but not in ours. We have them and we have no room for them but wanted you to know.

 

[WildMoon]

Wait... You don't think A. Davis won't get his jersey retired?

I just assumed he'll get his jersey retired, sooner than later.

 

[brianpoe]

There are more places of honor than the rafters of Rupp arena. There are places on campus, paving of key walkways, markers, locker rooms, etc. The program has literally become so broad and the milestones so numerous that it is tough to place them literally on the same level and in the same spot. This is a pretty classic type of issue for the boosters and university to tackle together. Various types of media and levels of commemoration should be established, criteria determined and move on. I think the issue here is that society have come to believe something is the best or the worst. In fact is that is almost always not true. Kentucky tradition is present on many levels.

The banners in the rafters should be for the highest honors. National championships, 4 year players of great achievement, etc. I'd even find a place for the bread wrappers, errr Helms titles. I actually believe they should be displayed in the visiting locker room or somewhere in the visiting team's face. The message is clear, yes, they are in your rafters but not in ours. We have them and we have no room for them but wanted you to know.

Why 4 year players?

Kyle Macy didn't play here 4 years.

Up until 1972 no one played 4 years.

It has to be individual accomplishment on the court. It is not an academic award.

Times change, and UK must stay in the present and not punish players.

 

[WildMoon]

I think they should just keep it simple.

1. Must win National Title
2. Must be nominated / win NPOY award.
3. Must be high character person who didn't have any bad reps (Poor GPA, arrests/scandal).

When you start adding emotion to it...we'll have to retire emotional situation.

Greatest clutch shooter: Aaron Harrison Jersey Retired
John Wall: The guy who brought the problem back
MKG: Heart of the 2012 championship team. Breakfast club starter...

....With Coach Cal, we will have all the jersey number retired before he retires...

 

[brianpoe]

I think they should just keep it simple.

1. Must win National Title
2. Must be nominated / win NPOY award.
3. Must be high character person who didn't have any bad reps (Poor GPA, arrests/scandal).

When you start adding emotion to it...we'll have to retire emotional situation.

Greatest clutch shooter: Aaron Harrison Jersey Retired
John Wall: The guy who brought the problem back
MKG: Heart of the 2012 championship team. Breakfast club starter...

....With Coach Cal, we will have all the jersey number retired before he retires...

How about All American?

You cannot go with National Champion that is a team accomplishment or failure. One game should not dictate a players career at UK.

 

[kybassfan]

Why 4 year players?

Kyle Macy didn't play here 4 years.

Up until 1972 no one played 4 years.

It has to be individual accomplishment on the court. It is not an academic award.

Times change, and UK must stay in the present and not punish players.

I see your point. However, as I said, there are many ways to honor a player without hanging a banner in the rafters. Just because you aren't in the rafters, doesn't mean you've been punished. For example, I'd find a way to make sure every fan, player and official that walked into Rupp had to see Issel's and Davis' face.

Also, I place an exceedingly high value on the student athlete. Not as an academic award, no points for a 4.0, though I'd have a spot somewhere for Academic All American just maybe not in the rafters. My thought would be that they achieved BOTH goals. If the athlete pressed to a degree (The 4 years criteria didn't make my point very well, admittedly.) and played on a championship team, I hold that in the VERY highest regard. That's just me though.

My whole point was that the boosters and university shouldn't be so one dimensional. They should establish many ways to acknowledge the legacy, document the criteria. The tradition is simply too rich and we can't hang everyone from a beam. As it is now, it just seems too arbitrary.

By the way, after reading that, you should know why I think players like Alex Poythress are so special.

 

[brianpoe]

I see your point. However, as I said, there are many ways to honor a player without hanging a banner in the rafters. Just because you aren't in the rafters, doesn't mean you've been punished. For example, I'd find a way to make sure every fan, player and official that walked into Rupp had to see Issel's and Davis' face.

Also, I place an exceedingly high value on the student athlete. Not as an academic award, no points for a 4.0, though I'd have a spot somewhere for Academic All American just maybe not in the rafters. My thought would be that they achieved BOTH goals. If the athlete pressed to a degree (The 4 years criteria didn't make my point very well, admittedly.) and played on a championship team, I hold that in the VERY highest regard. That's just me though.

My whole point was that the boosters and university shouldn't be so one dimensional. They should establish many ways to acknowledge the legacy, document the criteria. The tradition is simply too rich and we can't hang everyone from a beam. As it is now, it just seems too arbitrary.

By the way, after reading that, you should know why I think players like Alex Poythress are so special.

I totally agree that we should utilize other places to recognize achievement.

My only counter would be that the rafters of our home court should be the place designated for on court performance.

4 year rule could prevent us from ever having another great player honored in Rupp.

 

[kybassfan]

I totally agree that we should utilize other places to recognize achievement.

My only counter would be that the rafters of our home court should be the place designated for on court performance.

4 year rule could prevent us from ever having another great player honored in Rupp.

And if that were the criteria the program established, then I'm behind that. As of now, it just seems rather arbitrary as I've stated. The Unforgetables as an example, they really did a great service to the basketball program. To paraphrase a line from a movie, they stayed when the others ran . . . Were they truly great players? Well . . . when you have players like we do, maybe not so much.

Of course, that could be the whole point. The university may be of the opinion, "we pick'em, you look at'em.

I guess when you stop and think about it, its a damn nice problem to have.

 

[Hoskins91]

I agree. I don't mind honoring those guys somehow, but putting them up there lowers the bar significantly. We need a set amount of accomplishments one has to achieve in order to get up there, and whether they graduated or not should have nothing to do with it. To me, Bogans is the lowest I would go as far as giving someone the honor. He was never a consensus 1st or 2nd team all-america guy, so his highest honor is being conference player of the year. I'm not sure I would put him up there, but he is a name that comes up regularly in these conversations, so I would make him my baseline.

 

[WildMoon]

How about All American?

You cannot go with National Champion that is a team accomplishment or failure. One game should not dictate a players career at UK.

I'm just saying, we should make a clear criteria. The reason why i'm iffy about all american is the fact that UK will always have a lot of all-americans. (When you consider the time span and expectation of UK).

Our ultimate objective is National Title. We have 8, and continue to get more. Having your jersey retired at UK should mean as great of an honor as Hall of fame (obviously exaggerated), but none the less. If we set criteria that's attainable, Coach Cal would literally have 1 jersey retired every 2-3 years. That's too much.

But, i'm not saying "i'm against it." Just that we need to create a criteria. Not "They brought us back..." "They were kentucky boys." or whatever...

 

[Hoskins91]

Not counting whoever you'd have to go back and let in based on any rule changes, these guys are the players I would consider that have played since Delk, who is our most recent addition:

Ron Mercer-He was a part of a championship team. Then he went on to be conference player of the year and a consensus first team all-america.

Tayshaun Prince-He was a conference player of the year and a consensus second team all-america.

Keith Bogans-He was conference player of the year and the best player on one of our best teams.

Jodie Meeks-He was a consensus second team all-america.

John Wall-He was conference player of the year, and a consensus first team all-america.

Demarcus Cousins-He was a consensus second team all-america.

Anthony Davis-He was conference player of the year, a consensus 1st team all-america, the consensus national player of the year, and the final four most outstanding player.

 

[NCukcat62]

John wall, Anthony davis, and possibly prince deserve their jerseys hung up. The graduation rule is a joke. The best player in the history of the program played here one season.

 

[Hoskins91]

I think they should just keep it simple.

1. Must win National Title
2. Must be nominated / win NPOY award.
3. Must be high character person who didn't have any bad reps (Poor GPA, arrests/scandal).

When you start adding emotion to it...we'll have to retire emotional situation.

Greatest clutch shooter: Aaron Harrison Jersey Retired
John Wall: The guy who brought the problem back
MKG: Heart of the 2012 championship team. Breakfast club starter...

....With Coach Cal, we will have all the jersey number retired before he retires...

Guys like Issel and Mashburn would not be up there if that was the standard. We currently only have one player in our history that meets all three rules. That should make it clear that it is too extreme.

It needs to be some combination of statistics and awards, because we definitely have guys who were awarded 1st or 2nd team all-America who didn't deserve it, like last year.

 

[wildcatwelder]

The Unforgettables individual jerseys should come down, and as MD said a banner with all their names on it would be much better.

Somehow, someway, the University needs to be pressured into changing/updating the criteria so that Davis, and others, can have their jerseys in Rupp's rafters.

 

[bthaunert]

I'm just saying, we should make a clear criteria. The reason why i'm iffy about all american is the fact that UK will always have a lot of all-americans. (When you consider the time span and expectation of UK).

Our ultimate objective is National Title. We have 8, and continue to get more. Having your jersey retired at UK should mean as great of an honor as Hall of fame (obviously exaggerated), but none the less. If we set criteria that's attainable, Coach Cal would literally have 1 jersey retired every 2-3 years. That's too much.

But, i'm not saying "i'm against it." Just that we need to create a criteria. Not "They brought us back..." "They were kentucky boys." or whatever...

This is why UNC does it right. They have very set criteria. Here is how my list would work:

1. NPOY - winning one of the major awards (Sale, Edwards, Groza, Spivey, Givens, Wall, Davis)
2. Consensus 1st Team All American (Mashburn, Delk, Mercer, Wall, Davis, K Walker, Macy, Issel, Nash, Cox, Hagan, Spivey, Groza, Beard, Brannum, Edwards, Sale)
3. Consensus SEC Player of the Year (Riley, Parker, Grevey, Macy, K Walker, Mashburn, Delk, Mercer, Prince, Wall, Davis)

Here is what the list would look like based off the criteria:

Beard
Brannum
Cox
Davis
Delk
Edwards
Givens
Grevey
Groza
Hagan
Issel
Macy
Mashburn
Mercer
Nash
Prince
Riley
Sale
Spivey
K Walker
Wall

 

[Xception]

I hate to say it, but maybe Carolina with their honored jerseys has a good idea?

Looking back with what we know now , do you believe that UNC was trying to honor all the players they hoisted in the rafters ? Or is it more likely that it was just more of a self promotion p.r. stunt and another attempt at getting praise to cover up the fact that they were cheating their ass off ? They were overcompensating at every opportunity and it's easily obvious now .

Back on topic , the unforgettables has skewed what it takes to hang a jersey . It was a knee jerk reaction that is classic Pitino , I view those jerseys in an entirely different light than all the rest . It's like a appreciation jersey instead of the traditional accomplishment variety . The game has changed , the best players to attend UK may not have a jersey retired simply because they didn't stay longer .

 

[bradscats]

Davis is the best player to ever play at UK in my opinion and his jersey should be up there or no ones jersey should be up there. I am hopeful a renovated rupp or a new arena will have some statues out front. Would love to see a place for the title winning coaches and a few of the greatest players. I would go with five players to match the five coaches and they could say they add another player statue whenever they add another championship coach. I would go with Issel, Mashburn, and Davis. Not sure who else I would put.

 

[bradscats]

This is why UNC does it right. They have very set criteria. Here is how my list would work:

1. NPOY - winning one of the major awards (Sale, Edwards, Groza, Spivey, Givens, Wall, Davis)
2. Consensus 1st Team All American (Mashburn, Delk, Mercer, Wall, Davis, K Walker, Macy, Issel, Nash, Cox, Hagan, Spivey, Groza, Beard, Brannum, Edwards, Sale)
3. Consensus SEC Player of the Year (Riley, Parker, Grevey, Macy, K Walker, Mashburn, Delk, Mercer, Prince, Wall, Davis)

Here is what the list would look like based off the criteria:

Beard
Brannum
Cox
Davis
Delk
Edwards
Givens
Grevey
Groza
Hagan
Issel
Macy
Mashburn
Mercer
Nash
Prince
Riley
Sale
Spivey
K Walker
Wall

I really like this and that group is elite.

 

[Hoskins91]

This is why UNC does it right. They have very set criteria. Here is how my list would work:

1. NPOY - winning one of the major awards (Sale, Edwards, Groza, Spivey, Givens, Wall, Davis)
2. Consensus 1st Team All American (Mashburn, Delk, Mercer, Wall, Davis, K Walker, Macy, Issel, Nash, Cox, Hagan, Spivey, Groza, Beard, Brannum, Edwards, Sale)
3. Consensus SEC Player of the Year (Riley, Parker, Grevey, Macy, K Walker, Mashburn, Delk, Mercer, Prince, Wall, Davis)

Here is what the list would look like based off the criteria:

Beard
Brannum
Cox
Davis
Delk
Edwards
Givens
Grevey
Groza
Hagan
Issel
Macy
Mashburn
Mercer
Nash
Prince
Riley
Sale
Spivey
K Walker
Wall

The only problem I have with that is you seem to value SEC POY over 2nd team consensus all-America. Dampier deserves it if Riley got in. Why does Bogans not make it if Riley does?

 

[WildMoon]

Guys like Issel and Mashburn would not be up there if that was the standard. We currently only have one player in our history that meets all three rules. That should make it clear that it is too extreme.

It needs to be some combination of statistics and awards, because we definitely have guys who were awarded 1st or 2nd team all-America who didn't deserve it, like last year.

My point is that we need to make a clear criteria that's all. NPOY or all-american changes are fine. We just can't have emotional jerseys being lifted. That makes it to subjective and argumentative.

 

[preacherfan]

Not counting whoever you'd have to go back and let in based on any rule changes, these guys are the players I would consider that have played since Delk, who is our most recent addition:

Ron Mercer-He was a part of a championship team. Then he went on to be conference player of the year and a consensus first team all-america.

Tayshaun Prince-He was a conference player of the year and a consensus second team all-america.

Keith Bogans-He was conference player of the year and the best player on one of our best teams.

Jodie Meeks-He was a consensus second team all-america.

John Wall-He was conference player of the year, and a consensus first team all-america.

Demarcus Cousins-He was a consensus second team all-america.

Anthony Davis-He was conference player of the year, a consensus 1st team all-america, the consensus national player of the year, and the final four most outstanding player.

I love Bogans but I see NO reason whatsoever to put him up there with the rest.

 

[Blueaz]

very good thread...lots of nice points being made

 

[kentucky_wildcat_#1]

I think Davis will be the player that changes all of these rules. You just can't not put him up there. With the way he's tearing up the nba, it would be stupid not to have his jersey in the rafters. We need every recruit from here on out knowing Davis played at Kentucky and had his jersey retired at Kentucky. If Davis doesn't deserve to be up there, i don't know of another player that does.

 

[TUL]

I think Davis will be the player that changes all of these rules. You just can't not put him up there. With the way he's tearing up the nba, it would be stupid not to have his jersey in the rafters. We need every recruit from here on out knowing Davis played at Kentucky and had his jersey retired at Kentucky. If Davis doesn't deserve to be up there, i don't know of another player that does.

See, that doesn't strike me as a reason to retire a jersey. What they are doing in the NBA doesn't really matter... What matters is what they did at the school who wants to retire their jersey.

 

[stringmusiccat]

I think Davis will be the player that changes all of these rules. You just can't not put him up there. With the way he's tearing up the nba, it would be stupid not to have his jersey in the rafters. We need every recruit from here on out knowing Davis played at Kentucky and had his jersey retired at Kentucky. If Davis doesn't deserve to be up there, i don't know of another player that does.

I agree. I'm 67 years old and a lifetime diehard Kentucky Wildcat fan. I have seem many fine players come through UK. None were as good as AD. Greatest player ever to play for the historically greatest program of all time. This should be a no brainer and it should happen soon.

 

[nookam]

Once all is said and done, a statue of Cal and Anthony Davis.

 

[Hoskins91]

I love Bogans but I see NO reason whatsoever to put him up there with the rest.

I agree. I'm just saying for consideration, since a lot of people bring him up when we talk about this.

 

[bthaunert]

The only problem I have with that is you seem to value SEC POY over 2nd team consensus all-America. Dampier deserves it if Riley got in. Why does Bogans not make it if Riley does?

Bogans was not consensus. He was coaches, but not AP. I am assuming (and I could be wrong) that when Riley won the AP back in the 60's, that there was not Coaches or UPI. If there was, then I would remove him from the list.

As for 2nd Team AA, I'm just not sure guys like MKG and Meeks belong. Maybe a good one is if you're a 2nd Team AA for multiple years? That would include Dampier.

 

[Xception]

See, that doesn't strike me as a reason to retire a jersey. What they are doing in the NBA doesn't really matter... What matters is what they did at the school who wants to retire their jersey.

You only considered his point about the NBA and didn't account for what Davis did at UK . He won every individual accolade that a player could in his freshman year , won a national title and was final four mop . He deserves to be up there , I think the poster you quoted was trying to convey that UK would look stupid if they didn't hang his jersey given that he probably will go down as an NBA all time great .