ADVERTISEMENT

Is Tubman Gonna Play Or Not

I guess I'll start it. Where does the Chris Jones case in Louisville fit in to this discussion if at all?

Pretty similar, except for Jones' history. Both involve accusations by women with video evidence that at worst supports the defendant, at best show the accusations were false.

Both were given softball presentations to the grand jury because they were unwinnable cases for the prosecution. Neither would have even been presented but for the current political climate.
 
I guess I'll start it. Where does the Chris Jones case in Louisville fit in to this discussion if at all?
Not very similar IMO. Tubman's case is 1 male, 1 female, her word against his. Jones case sounds like an orgy gone wrong. He was charged along with 2 other males for raping 2 females. And there were several other witnesses not involved in the sex present.

UL's story is that Jones was kicked off their team for violating curfew that night, not the rape charges. So if he were not a senior I don't think they would be allowing him back on their team despite the grand jury not taking his accusations to trial.
 
Not very similar IMO. Tubman's case is 1 male, 1 female, her word against his. Jones case sounds like an orgy gone wrong. He was charged along with 2 other males for raping 2 females. And there were several other witnesses not involved in the sex present.

UL's story is that Jones was kicked off their team for violating curfew that night, not the rape charges. So if he were not a senior I don't think they would be allowing him back on their team despite the grand jury not taking his accusations to trial.
Being kicked off the team is quite a bit different than being kicked out of school. Was he kicked out of school and not allowed to return?
 
Being kicked off the team is quite a bit different than being kicked out of school. Was he kicked out of school and not allowed to return?

I like, but are you trying for the master of the understatement award?
 
Not trying to hijack thread but to show the inconsistency in society in such matters. Mayweather has been CONVICTED of domestic violence and abuse on five occasions. Has not served a day in jail. And will make 200 million this weekend. Isn't America great.
 
Not trying to hijack thread but to show the inconsistency in society in such matters. Mayweather has been CONVICTED of domestic violence and abuse on five occasions. Has not served a day in jail. And will make 200 million this weekend. Isn't America great.
Different times. When I was a teenager/twenty something if you got stopped for drunk driving the cop was likely to just make you pour out your booze and give you a ride home... I actually had a cop allow me to drive myself and a buddy who was passed out drunk, home. He followed me to make sure I got home "safely".

Ray Rice was pretty much getting away with DV until the video of the incident went public.

BTW...Mayweather has spent time in jail. He spent 2 months in jail in 2012.
 
And his lawsuit can allege things that the Columbia lawsuit did not. Each Plaintiff is different. Tubman's case is worth more . A lot more. He is a highly skilled athlete who can reasonably be expected to play pro ball. Due to the Rice situation the NFL is very leary of any player with the baggage of a rape allegation false or not. It is not speculation. It is foreseeable that this could literally cost him millions of dollars.

If he comes back to play for UK he is a much much stronger position. Looks like he was falsely accused and should be no problem . HOWEVER if he is kicked out of school it looks like he is guilty . His reputation is ruined . NFL will think twice or three themes about taking on that baggage. If the facts are what has been portrayed on this board I think he has been horribly wronged.

As I have pointed out previously Ray Larson's people are the best. They deal with this all of the time. It is obvious that they felt something in the young lady's case did not ring true. Their standard of proof was even much less than the 50.1% in a civil matter and they would not touch it. Neither should UK.

The members of the committee I understand are professors. I suggest in their required reading they read "The Oxbow incident " which involved an illegal lynching.

This looked like the best place to tag in on this thread. Let me first say that I have every sympathy for a victim of "true" sexual assault and no sympathy whatsoever for any man who actually commits any such assault.

In the wake of UofL basketball player Chris Jones recently being exonerated by a Grand Jury (i.e., "no true bill") on similar accusations I did a little Google research on "lawsuits against colleges for false sexual assault charges". I'm not going to post any links as there are a number of reports and, in general, each case must stand on its' own merit but I would urge anyone who wants a better understanding of the "complexity" of these situations to do so.

Not that it makes any difference, I will also note that "damages" from a potential and statistically unlikely professional career would have no merit whatsoever. In one case I read about a young man was dismissed from school in his last year who had a lucrative Wall Street job lined up after graduation. (FWIW, I saw nothing of him suing the school for said damages).

Several things I gleaned from reading other reports about "sexual assault on campuses"...

1. Unless the victim acknowledges it was consensual there is virtually no mechanism for the accused to "prove" his innocence. From the accused's standpoint, short of video evidence (yeah, sure) there is little evidence to prove him innocent. Even evidence of continued "friendship" after the incident (i.e., texts, Facebook, e-mails, meetings, etc.) have been determined to be insufficient to prove consensual.

2. Title IX (yes, that Title IX) requires schools to investigate reports of sexual assault. This aspect of Title IX has been a major point of emphasis in recent years.

3. On campus investigations are done in parallel to the criminal justice system but performed by school officials usually without legal training. There are enormous differences in "standard of evidence" in the two systems. The on campus procedure require scant evidence or burden of proof of the crime (the accusation alone is often sufficient) but results in harsh academic punishment (i.e., expulsion). Without question, the possible withholding of Federal funds for a Title IX violation is the backdrop for all on-campus investigations.

4. In cases involving alcohol, the on campus "finding" is often "too drunk to consent".

5. Lawsuits by alleged offenders against the school are becoming a bit more frequent but to date have been largely unsuccessful.

Peace
 
Not trying to hijack thread but to show the inconsistency in society in such matters. Mayweather has been CONVICTED of domestic violence and abuse on five occasions. Has not served a day in jail. And will make 200 million this weekend. Isn't America great.

Although not that long ago, it was eons ago in terms of public perception. A lot started to change with Ray Rice, and even before then. Now the mere allegations of domestic violence or sexual offenses by men against women is basically a professional death sentence. Noone even waits for the evidence or an investigation before dismissing players, terminating contracts, or cancelling performances.

And yes the "death sentence" has applied only to men thus far. Hope Solo was arrested for domestic violence against a woman, and was suspended 30 days. Brittney Griner just plead guilty to assaulting her girlfriend, was given no jail time, and has yet to receive any suspension from either her team or the WNBA. Pretty stark contrast.
 
This looked like the best place to tag in on this thread. Let me first say that I have every sympathy for a victim of "true" sexual assault and no sympathy whatsoever for any man who actually commits any such assault.

In the wake of UofL basketball player Chris Jones recently being exonerated by a Grand Jury (i.e., "no true bill") on similar accusations I did a little Google research on "lawsuits against colleges for false sexual assault charges". I'm not going to post any links as there are a number of reports and, in general, each case must stand on its' own merit but I would urge anyone who wants a better understanding of the "complexity" of these situations to do so.

Not that it makes any difference, I will also note that "damages" from a potential and statistically unlikely professional career would have no merit whatsoever. In one case I read about a young man was dismissed from school in his last year who had a lucrative Wall Street job lined up after graduation. (FWIW, I saw nothing of him suing the school for said damages).

Several things I gleaned from reading other reports about "sexual assault on campuses"...

1. Unless the victim acknowledges it was consensual there is virtually no mechanism for the accused to "prove" his innocence. From the accused's standpoint, short of video evidence (yeah, sure) there is little evidence to prove him innocent. Even evidence of continued "friendship" after the incident (i.e., texts, Facebook, e-mails, meetings, etc.) have been determined to be insufficient to prove consensual.

2. Title IX (yes, that Title IX) requires schools to investigate reports of sexual assault. This aspect of Title IX has been a major point of emphasis in recent years.

3. On campus investigations are done in parallel to the criminal justice system but performed by school officials usually without legal training. There are enormous differences in "standard of evidence" in the two systems. The on campus procedure require scant evidence or burden of proof of the crime (the accusation alone is often sufficient) but results in harsh academic punishment (i.e., expulsion). Without question, the possible withholding of Federal funds for a Title IX violation is the backdrop for all on-campus investigations.

4. In cases involving alcohol, the on campus "finding" is often "too drunk to consent".

5. Lawsuits by alleged offenders against the school are becoming a bit more frequent but to date have been largely unsuccessful.

Peace
Wildcard,
I take it you would never have brought Brown v Topeka, Miranda, or any of the other hundred or so modern cases or so that have allowed the law to evolve to address injustices. Guess we would just have a static society and still have segregated schools, restrooms, theaters, restaurants, hotels,sports teams etc. Get the point.

Any time you see an injustice our legal system finds a way to catch up and remedy the wrong. May take a while . May take the right set of facts. But does happen frequently.

Lou
 
Wildcard,
I take it you would never have brought Brown v Topeka, Miranda, or any of the other hundred or so modern cases or so that have allowed the law to evolve to address injustices. Guess we would just have a static society and still have segregated schools, restrooms, theaters, restaurants, hotels,sports teams etc. Get the point.

Any time you see an injustice our legal system finds a way to catch up and remedy the wrong. May take a while . May take the right set of facts. But does happen frequently.

Lou

Lou, I guess I really don't get the point. The cases you cite were rulings to redress actions by public or government agencies that were subsequently deemed unconstitutional. The fundamental issue here is more of a potential civil action between private litigants (i.e., the accused and the accuser or the school).

I was merely trying to shed some light on a complex and ugly problem of our time. I cannot tolerate the notion of violence or sexual assault against women but I am equally appalled that a young man's life can be so dramatically altered and sometimes irreparably harmed by a false accusation. Perhaps if the "violence against women" language was removed from Title IX (thus removing the potential for a loss of Federal funding) the schools would act more more consistently with the legal findings.

Peace
 
Lou, I guess I really don't get the point. The cases you cite were rulings to redress actions by public or government agencies that were subsequently deemed unconstitutional. The fundamental issue here is more of a potential civil action between private litigants (i.e., the accused and the accuser or the school).

I was merely trying to shed some light on a complex and ugly problem of our time. I cannot tolerate the notion of violence or sexual assault against women but I am equally appalled that a young man's life can be so dramatically altered and sometimes irreparably harmed by a false accusation. Perhaps if the "violence against women" language was removed from Title IX (thus removing the potential for a loss of Federal funding) the schools would act more more consistently with the legal findings.

Peace
All of this talk of a lawsuit by Tubman, whether it is against UK to correct a social problem of kicking out students that are innocent, or it is against his accuser for false allegations, assumes he is innocent. Neither he nor any of you can prove that he is. None of us know, so the talk of a lawsuit is crazy. This is a topic of conversation because he was a UK football player. This happens every day to normal people. Grand Juries routinely return no true bill on all kinds of charges against people that the accused have to deal with forever.
 
ADVERTISEMENT
ADVERTISEMENT